Why we shouldn't devalue what got us there

[Zekeats]

Easily the RB most like DeMarco in the Draft, T.J. Yeldon with a Trade down looks impressive in the 2nd.

If TJ Yeldon where so good he would be ranked a top 20 pick just like every other Bama RB is every year. He and Ajayi are 2 of my least favorite RBs.

 

[percyhoward]

stems from the running game

Only to a degree. Not completely, and even less so from Murray specifically.

The improvement in the passing game on 3rd and long has nothing to do with the running game, for example.

 

[Idgit]

LOL

Improved defense?

Seriously? They were protected the entire season by the run game.

And yes, the RB was a part of it. Not all of it, but a good chunk of it.

And your assertion our passing game was better is also a bit odd. It was more efficient, also, yes, because of the running game.



In a perfect world, where you nail those defensive draft picks, yes, you might be on to something.

But it does not always work out that way.

All of this arrogance. After one season. We could be the Chiefs of 2014 if we do not get this right and that means at least not taking a step backwards.

Yes, the defense was improved. From the worst defense in team history level of the season before.

The RB was the same RB we'd had in the years prior when you were slamming on the team. What changed was the run v. pass splits. The passing game was better *because* it was more efficient. There's nothing odd about noting it.

Any discussion based on making decisions based on an expectation of whiffing on draft picks makes no sense, so, yes, let's agree that the goal is to hit on them.

And arrogance has nothing to do with anything. As I've said on many, many occasions, because running the ball effectively doesn't really affect wins or losses, I'd much prefer to spend the limited resources on the things that do. We're already about as effective as we can be passing the football (though I'm all for improvement), but there's a long, long way to go with making it harder for the other guys to pass the football. This is why it's not arrogance to say we need to upgrade the skill level of the players on the defensive roster. That's just having a sense of what's actually important that the team doesn't do well right now and wanting the focus to be on improving that.

We'll see tomorrow which direction the team is leaning. I think it's going to be defensive-heavy unless an offensive player who represents too much value drops into our laps early.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

What got us to 12-4 from a larger scope is good coaching. We had/have some excellent position coaches and a HC that allows the position coaches to coach players to their best of their ability and an organization that has given the HC the money to hire the assistants and coordinators he has wanted and given the entire coaching staff the resources to coach to their best ability. Obviously, the switch to Linehan as O-Coordinator and running the ball helped tremendously, but we don't get to the point of having such an effective and explosive offense if the players were not developed as well as they have been.

Murray was considered a straight line runner with no 'wiggle' and turned into a dynamic tailback who cuts very well, is tremendous at making himself small and is a big, strong and fast tailback that was also productive at catching passes out of the backfield.

Tyron was considered to have questionable size (tall, but not heavy) with question hand-punch technique. He also only played RT in college. Leary was considered a 3rd round pick with a degenerative knee condition and basically most people thought he sucked in 2013. Frederick ran a slow 40-time. Martin had to make the switch from RT to RG and Free takes pelnty of abuse here.

Bryant was considered a poor route runner with troubles off the field. Beasley was undrafted.

Despite all of that, they developed the best O-Line in the game, a great running back who broke Cowboys records and have arguably the top WR in the game with Beasley being an incredibly effective threat out of the slot.

What this means to me is that we need to get players. We have the coaching staff to coach these guys and develop them into very quality players. But, we can't start trading up to give away pick and by the same token, we can't draft players with a high grade 'if they weren't injured." We need more bodies that can go right now, so we don't always have to rely on a productive ground game and so we don't have to rely on 1 player.






YR

 

[Idgit]

What got us to 12-4 from a larger scope is good coaching. We had/have some excellent position coaches and a HC that allows the position coaches to coach players to their best of their ability and an organization that has given the HC the money to hire the assistants and coordinators he has wanted and given the entire coaching staff the resources to coach to their best ability. Obviously, the switch to Linehan as O-Coordinator and running the ball helped tremendously, but we don't get to the point of having such an effective and explosive offense if the players were not developed as well as they have been.

Murray was considered a straight line runner with no 'wiggle' and turned into a dynamic tailback who cuts very well, is tremendous at making himself small and is a big, strong and fast tailback that was also productive at catching passes out of the backfield.

Tyron was considered to have questionable size (tall, but not heavy) with question hand-punch technique. He also only played RT in college. Leary was considered a 3rd round pick with a degenerative knee condition and basically most people thought he sucked in 2013. Frederick ran a slow 40-time. Martin had to make the switch from RT to RG and Free takes pelnty of abuse here.

Bryant was considered a poor route runner with troubles off the field. Beasley was undrafted.

Despite all of that, they developed the best O-Line in the game, a great running back who broke Cowboys records and have arguably the top WR in the game with Beasley being an incredibly effective threat out of the slot.

What this means to me is that we need to get players. We have the coaching staff to coach these guys and develop them into very quality players. But, we can't start trading up to give away pick and by the same token, we can't draft players with a high grade 'if they weren't injured." We need more bodies that can go right now, so we don't always have to rely on a productive ground game and so we don't have to rely on 1 player.


YR

This is also all true. Get the system in place, draft well, conserve picks, and focus on developing the players so you're not plugging holes with expensive contracts. Sign your own guys when they are truly special. Otherwise, trust your staff to find and develop replacements for guys like Harris or Murray who are valuable role players but who you don't want to hand a contract with a premium on it for whatever reason.

 

[JoeKing]

Overvaluing a 3rd round drafted RB (Murray) and equating him to the major reason we had success last season is a huge mistake, IMHO. I believe undervaluing a RB that was drafted before Murray in the very same draft is just as big of a mistake. That's what we have in Ryan Williams. Some of the people that criticize Williams for being injured and thus not being able to perform at his peak are the same people that think Sean Lee is the second coming of Christ and yet he has been just as injured and unable to perform at his peak. Why does Sean Lee get a pass? Fingers cross, I'm hoping they both have a healthy coming season... then folks will see what a jewel in the rough that RW actually is.

If Darren McFadden has anything left on the tire, he'll be a fantastic addition to the RB committee as well. Just by listening to him, he seems to be ready to prove the naysayers wrong. I think the combination of Williams and McFadden will more than make up for the void left by Murray. It's my opinion and in due time I think I'll be proven correct.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

Only to a degree. Not completely, and even less so from Murray specifically.

The improvement in the passing game on 3rd and long has nothing to do with the running game, for example.

The running game allowed for less injuries. If you look at the stats between injuries and teams that run a higher % of the time in the 1st and 3rd quarters, you'll see a correlation. That's what we did and we had far fewer injuries than in the previous 3 seasons.

It also for us to have less 3rd downs (we were getting more first downs on either 1st or 2nd down). So we were also getting fewer 3rd downs and fewer 3rd and long situations.

We finally took a productive and efficient player in Murray and let him produce. He was averaging 5.1 ypc for his career before this season and we refused to use him more often.

And as we've seen, Romo becomes less efficient on pass attempts 35+ and is most efficient around pass attempts 20-35.

So the improve passing on 3rd and long was more or less icing on the cake, but this team improved simply by running the ball more. The team now had a highly productive and efficient player being extremely productive (and still efficient) simply by using him more. That snowballed into several other positive effects:

- More effective passing on 1st down, 2nd down and 3rd and short

- Still being able to pass effecitvely on play action

- A team that suffered less injuries

- Keeping our defense off the field, even when the running game was not efficient.






YR

 

[Yakuza Rich]

This is also all true. Get the system in place, draft well, conserve picks, and focus on developing the players so you're not plugging holes with expensive contracts. Sign your own guys when they are truly special. Otherwise, trust your staff to find and develop replacements for guys like Harris or Murray who are valuable role players but who you don't want to hand a contract with a premium on it for whatever reason.

Could not have said it better, amigo.






YR

 

[Alexander]

Yes, the defense was improved. From the worst defense in team history level of the season before.

The RB was the same RB we'd had in the years prior when you were slamming on the team. What changed was the run v. pass splits. The passing game was better *because* it was more efficient. There's nothing odd about noting it.

Correction. "Slamming on the team" is not the same as slamming on the coaching staff for poor play calling.

Murray and the line minus Martin was ripping the Packers to a sure victory until Garrett decided to get all cute. If it took one single player to get him to decide to trust his team to run, that is not my problem. Simple empirical evidence at that time, plus the opponent's own testimony, makes it pretty evident.

And LOL at this "run v. pass split" nonsense. That was pure choice by the head coach. He chose at the time to not trust his players. That is on Garrett.

Any discussion based on making decisions based on an expectation of whiffing on draft picks makes no sense, so, yes, let's agree that the goal is to hit on them.

And arrogance has nothing to do with anything. As I've said on many, many occasions, because running the ball effectively doesn't really affect wins or losses, I'd much prefer to spend the limited resources on the things that do. We're already about as effective as we can be passing the football (though I'm all for improvement), but there's a long, long way to go with making it harder for the other guys to pass the football. This is why it's not arrogance to say we need to upgrade the skill level of the players on the defensive roster. That's just having a sense of what's actually important that the team doesn't do well right now and wanting the focus to be on improving that.

We'll see tomorrow which direction the team is leaning. I think it's going to be defensive-heavy unless an offensive player who represents too much value drops into our laps early.

You can choose to ignore a winning formula if you wish. Our run game shielded a bad defense and helped a QB to his best season in his career.

I am not advocating not improving the defense. But since we could not, or would not, keep the status quo on offense with the run game, we have to at least replace the loss of Murray.

I also think rookie runners can step in and contribute faster than any defender could. In a deep draft at the position, we would be, yes, arrogant, if we chose to think we could simply plug in whatever and expect the same results.

 

[percyhoward]

We finally took a productive and efficient player in Murray and let him produce. He was averaging 5.1 ypc for his career before this season and we refused to use him more often.

First, he was only average in short yardage and goal line until 2014, then suddenly he was the best in the league.

Then there's Dallas' average rush on 1st down (league rank)
2012 - 30th
2013 (games 1-8) 16th
2013 (games 9-16) 3rd
2014 - 1st

Note how the first-down run average gradually improved by the end of 2013 (30th to 16th to 3rd) even without a commitment to the run.
1st Down Run/Pass
2012: 41.3% / 58.7%
2013 (games 1-8): 46.1% / 53.9%
2013 (games 9-16): 43.0% / 57.0%
2014: 69.5% / 30.5%

Was the shift toward the run on 1st down really the cause of the improved OL play, or was it just a reaction to it?

 

[Nova]

The run game got us to where we were last year, but it's not the only avenue we need to take.

We need to be effective running the ball, sure. But the best thing to do to be successful is to give our top 10 QB a defense. That's been the real winning formula all along.

 

[gimmesix]

Only to a degree. Not completely, and even less so from Murray specifically.

The improvement in the passing game on 3rd and long has nothing to do with the running game, for example.

Actually, I believe there is a correlation. The better you run the ball, the more you wear on a defense. That slows the pass rush.

Of course, there are a bunch of correlations because success on offense and defense have all kinds of connections, which is why would be foolish to neglect an area that made everything work last year. I don't understand why some (not saying you) want to leave an important part of that success last year to chance.

To me, it's more important that we make sure we do not slip in the running game than it is to make the defense stronger than it was last year. We know what we had last year got us one step away from the NFC title game, so let's don't mess up that formula.

I'm not saying neglect the defense because we want to build it up, but we can't do that and not make sure our running game is ready and able to do it's part to carry the load.

 

[superonyx]

Overvaluing a 3rd round drafted RB (Murray) and equating him to the major reason we had success last season is a huge mistake, IMHO. I believe undervaluing a RB that was drafted before Murray in the very same draft is just as big of a mistake. That's what we have in Ryan Williams. Some of the people that criticize Williams for being injured and thus not being able to perform at his peak are the same people that think Sean Lee is the second coming of Christ and yet he has been just as injured and unable to perform at his peak. Why does Sean Lee get a pass? Fingers cross, I'm hoping they both have a healthy coming season... then folks will see what a jewel in the rough that RW actually is.

If Darren McFadden has anything left on the tire, he'll be a fantastic addition to the RB committee as well. Just by listening to him, he seems to be ready to prove the naysayers wrong. I think the combination of Williams and McFadden will more than make up for the void left by Murray. It's my opinion and in due time I think I'll be proven correct.

Sean Lee has played at an extremely high level in this league. We all know he is injured non stop. However don't act like his NFL production is the same as Ryan Williams NFL production.....RW has produced absolutely Zero in the NFL. His career highlight so far is getting knocked out cold on the field in Arizona.

 

[JoeKing]

Sean Lee has played at an extremely high level in this league. We all know he is injured non stop. However don't act like his NFL production is the same as Ryan Williams NFL production.....RW has produced absolutely Zero in the NFL. His career highlight so far is getting knocked out cold on the field in Arizona.

Thank you for self incriminating yourself as one of the folks I was talking about. I'm not disputing your point but it doesn't negate mine. There is a reason Williams was drafted higher than Murray in the same draft. I belief he'll prove his worth if he remains healthy. There's no need to debate the point. It will happen or it won't.

 

[superonyx]

It's really hard to separate out what contributed how much to the winning increase. More effective passing, better pass defense, the running game, they're all interrelated.

What I tend to think happened is that the effectiveness of our running game wasn't the issue as much as the frequency of the rushing play calling was. I know that rushing effectiveness doesn't really impact wins and losses all that directly, but I think we were much more able to stay away from some bad decisions in the passing game by being willing to run in certain situations, instead. For example, maybe by checking from a run into another run rather than going from a run necessarily into one of two passing options. That made Romo more effective, which also helped put the defense in better situations later in games. I consider that stuff more play calling and design than I do a function of having Demarco Murray there. Though I agree with you that he was largely underrated for a long while here before he was overrated for about half a season.

Either way, I still think we're going to pick up a value RB and we'll stick with what's been working for us. Namely the shift in calling running plays (which was significant) and to improving the pressure and coverage ability of the defense, overall. I just think we'll still be able to do all that with a mid-round RB.

Good points. I understand the logic behind frequency of running plays vs effectiveness of running plays. However, I have to wonder if the frequency would decrease if the effectiveness wasn't there. How confident are you in this staff to keep running the ball if we have McFadden pulling out his 3.3 ypc he has become known for? Would we even want them to keep running in this scenario? I loved the way we kept running it last year throughout the game....because it was working...

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Williams was my pick all along to be the workhorse back last season if anything happened to Murray. I believe he'd have leapfrogged Randle and taken the bulk of the carries. There's no way to prove that, but the team at least locked him down in the offseason to keep him as an option for us. That says something.

AZ was really excited about him early on, too. He lost favor with the coaching staff change to Arians, and, IIRC, they were frustrated with him because they thought he was tentative about his leg before going down for the season with his shoulder. His take was that his knee was never right and it just took time to get it back 100%. But he was capable of running hard for us in camp, fwtw.

I'm with you on DMC. Not a big fan of that signing for anything other than the pass protection, which we did actually need.

Athletes today don't go for the 'rub some dirt on it' ethic much anymore. Given revelations the past few decades, I cannot blame them.

 

[superonyx]

Thank you for self incriminating yourself as one of the folks I was talking about. I'm not disputing your point but it doesn't negate mine. There is a reason Williams was drafted higher than Murray in the same draft. I belief he'll prove his worth if he remains healthy. There's no need to debate the point. It will happen or it won't.

I don't blame Williams for not staying healthy...I blame him for not being effective when healthy..big difference.
There was also a reason Trent Richardson was drafted earlier than any RB in the last 10 years...do you want him also? Where you are drafted means nothing at this point.

 

[JoeBoBBY]

The run game got us to where we were last year, but it's not the only avenue we need to take.

We need to be effective running the ball, sure. But the best thing to do to be successful is to give our top 10 QB a defense. That's been the real winning formula all along.

I dont understand, why we cant do that very thing, and still bring in a proven RB for Romos last run.

Right now, the reason we are relevant is because of the Offense. If it stumbles, we aint winning anything.

It seems like the long way to go to me, considering Romos time frame. Transforming the entire Defense so its a top 5-10 defense.......

While I agree the defense needs upgrading, and that's exactly what we will do tomorrow, I think we could of planned for DM not being here a little better, then have to rely on a rookie and McFadden. Because that's all we got right now. That is who we will be depending on the first 2 games against NY and Philly and the rest of the season..... What this tells me is, we will see Romo passing the ball more this season.

 

[JoeKing]

I don't blame Williams for not staying healthy...I blame him for not being effective when healthy..big difference.
There was also a reason Trent Richardson was drafted earlier than any RB in the last 10 years...do you want him also? Where you are drafted means nothing at this point.

Richardson wasn't from the same draft class as Williams/Murray so you are obviously ignoring my point to make your own. Williams and Murray competed in the same draft, we're scouted by the pros at the same time and Williams consistently rated a better RB than Murray.

 

[superonyx]

Richardson wasn't from the same draft class as Williams/Murray so you are obviously ignoring my point to make your own. Williams and Murray competed in the same draft, we're scouted by the pros at the same time and Williams consistently rated a better RB than Murray.

What is your point anyway? What does Williams have to do with Murray? Are you really trying to say that Williams is better than Murray because he was drafted before Murray? Because if you are drawing any relevance to draft position equally ability at the NFL level then Trent Richardson is a perfectly legitimate counterpoint to this argument. You should look at Ryan Williams production since the draft and speak to that. He has done zero to justify even being compared to Murray.
It's obvious that you don't like to have any point you make challenged. This is a message board where people will bring up counter points and often debate things you say. I'm surprised that you are so aggressive when you make a point that is challenged. Especially when you decided to bring Sean Lee into a debate about running backs and make a point that Williams somehow compares to Sean Lee. Despite the fact that Sean Lee has played a level that deserves more respect than this. Has Ryan Williams?