Why we shouldn't devalue what got us there

[JoeyBoy718]

I think the OL is special and made Murray look like an elite back last year. That being said, I've always thought Murray was a great player and would have a monster season if given the carries. I think the OL can make a good back look great and a great back look elite, but I don't think you can just plug anyone in there. I don't think we need to get Peterson or trade up in the 1st for Gurley or Gordon, but I do think you need to take advantage of a deep RB class and take one in the first 3 rounds. This draft is loaded at quality RBs in the early rounds. There's only one elite prospect (Gurley) but there are a lot of really good backs. A mistake would be taking a loaded class for granted and waiting too long to draft one. Waiting until the 4th for RB (and for CB) will be a mistake because there won't be any special players still left. I think we need to see if an elite players falls to us in the 1st (Gregory, Ray, Peters, Gurley) and get a RB and CB in the first 3 rounds. I'd also like to see us go DE and DT early.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

RB may be the least important position of all 22 starters.

Yeah I said it.

We have a line that can pass protect and run block. If our line can can continue to carve out holes so that our rbs gain 2.8 yards per carry before contact then we'll be able to run the ball.

But we also will need to get stops. And right now we can't do that consistently. And that cost us against Aaron Rodgers. It will continue to cost us.

It's time to make significant investments.... Continue significant investments.... On the non flashy side of the ball. Defense.

If we grab a rb in the 3rd or 4th round.... So be it. But we need to spend resources on other areas of this team.

Didn't the Pats just win it all with Blount as their rb? In a season were Murray outplayed everyone? In a season where Romo outplayed Brady? Why?

 

[JoeKing]

What is your point anyway? What does Williams have to do with Murray? Are you really trying to say that Williams is better than Murray because he was drafted before Murray? Because if you are drawing any relevance to draft position equally ability at the NFL level then Trent Richardson is a perfectly legitimate counterpoint to this argument. You should look at Ryan Williams production since the draft and speak to that. He has done zero to justify even being compared to Murray.
It's obvious that you don't like to have any point you make challenged. This is a message board where people will bring up counter points and often debate things you say. I'm surprised that you are so aggressive when you make a point that is challenged. Especially when you decided to bring Sean Lee into a debate about running backs and make a point that Williams somehow compares to Sean Lee. Despite the fact that Sean Lee has played a level that deserves more respect than this. Has Ryan Williams?

Thick as a rock. I'll approach this from a different angle.

Back in the 2011 draft, the Cowboys were set to choose RB Ryan Williams with their 2nd round pick. Instead, the Arizona Cardinals picked Williams with the #38 pick, and the Cowboys settled for Bruce Carter at #40. Later, in the 3rd round, the Cowboys picked DeMarco Murray with the #71 pick. Of course, Williams blew his knee out in his rookie training camp, and once Bruce Arians took over as coach, Williams never got another chance to prove why he was a top 40 pick. Is it possible that the reason the Cowboys were so willing to let Murray walk is that they still have a pretty high opinion of Williams?

 

[big dog cowboy]

This is the draft that will either propel us further into the playoffs or push us further away from the 12-4 season we had last year.

Want to go deeper in the playoffs? Better build a champship worthy defense. Because that is what stopped our progress last year. The imability to slow down a crippled QB kept us from playing for the NFC Championship.

 

[AdamJT13]

It also for us to have less 3rd downs (we were getting more first downs on either 1st or 2nd down). So we were also getting fewer 3rd downs and fewer 3rd and long situations.

None of that is true. We were significantly worse at picking up first downs on first down than we were in 2013 (we dropped from 26.6 percent to 20.4 percent), and we were slightly worse on second downs (dropping from 37.1 percent to 36.7 percent). That obviously makes sense, considering that we passed less and ran more on those downs -- and running picks up fewer yards (and fewer first downs), on average.

As a result, we faced third downs more often in 2014 than we did in 2013 -- 201 times, compared with 180 times in 2013, despite having seven fewer drives than we did in 2013.

We also faced third-and-11 or more 41 times last year, compared with only 34 times in 2013. But like Percy said, our passing game was still much more effective on those plays -- converting at a 29 percent rate, compared with only 17 percent in 2013.

 

[JoeKing]

Want to go deeper in the playoffs? Better build a champship worthy defense. Because that is what stopped our progress last year. The imability to slow down a crippled QB kept us from playing for the NFC Championship.

That is exactly the right course of action to take the next step. Maintaining the quality of our offense and improving the defense seems to be the plan.

 

[Idgit]

Good points. I understand the logic behind frequency of running plays vs effectiveness of running plays. However, I have to wonder if the frequency would decrease if the effectiveness wasn't there. How confident are you in this staff to keep running the ball if we have McFadden pulling out his 3.3 ypc he has become known for? Would we even want them to keep running in this scenario? I loved the way we kept running it last year throughout the game....because it was working...

I don't have a lot of faith in McFadden. I think it's a safer bet that Randle can average what Murray did with 60% of the carries. Let Williams or a rookie take another 30%, and throw it maybe a bit more to Beasley or Escobar like we did later in the season in 2014 and I think we're still likely to be pretty effective. If the defense improves, we'll have more opportunities late to put the OL to work and close out games.

There's more room to improve defensively than there is to improve the team with the RBs available between 27 and 91. Better to use the picks where they'll do the most good. Moving up for Gurley would be too expensive. Moving up for Gordon not worth it. After that, I'd rather have the guy who slips to 91 at that point personally. I could understand taking a guy in the second, but I'd prefer we go defense again there and really start adding some depth on that side of the ball. We really need it.

 

[Irvin88_4life]

They have had a few undrafted FA types to plug in. Yes, they did invest in Solder with a first and Vollmer with a second.

That is nothing like what we have poured into our OL. We almost cheated with three first round choices.

Brady has had a great OL before the past few years. I'm not talking about recently, go back and look since he became a starter

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I don't have a lot of faith in McFadden. I think it's a safer bet that Randle can average what Murray did with 60% of the carries. Let Williams or a rookie take another 30%, and throw it maybe a bit more to Beasley or Escobar like we did later in the season in 2014 and I think we're still likely to be pretty effective. If the defense improves, we'll have more opportunities late to put the OL to work and close out games.

There's more room to improve defensively than there is to improve the team with the RBs available between 27 and 91. Better to use the picks where they'll do the most good. Moving up for Gurley would be too expensive. Moving up for Gordon not worth it. After that, I'd rather have the guy who slips to 91 at that point personally. I could understand taking a guy in the second, but I'd prefer we go defense again there and really start adding some depth on that side of the ball. We really need it.

I actually have a lot of confidence in Darren McFadden in a third down role. Only back that is comparable to him as a pass catcher is Abdullah and the NI kid. Only one that blocks similarly is Yeldon. None of them have the ability in both. McFadden knows how to operate in the slot. In that role he can keep Romo clean, help running routes and using our very mobile offensive line to find creases out in space. McFadden hasn't worked with two tackles and a guard that are good to elite reaching blocks in space that can hook and drive instead of throw and dive out in space.

On first and second down, I want the rookie or Williams/Randle out there running those inside leads, zones, and counters. It's going to be a great training camp battle.

 

[JoeKing]

I actually have a lot of confidence in Darren McFadden in a third down role. Only back that is comparable to him as a pass catcher is Abdullah and the NI kid. Only one that blocks similarly is Yeldon. None of them have the ability in both. McFadden knows how to operate in the slot. In that role he can keep Romo clean, help running routes and using our very mobile offensive line to find creases out in space. McFadden hasn't worked with two tackles and a guard that are good to elite reaching blocks in space that can hook and drive instead of throw and dive out in space.

On first and second down, I want the rookie or Williams/Randle out there running those inside leads, zones, and counters. It's going to be a great training camp battle.

I have to agree with you on this, Fuzzy. McFadden, if used correctly has some great up side. Now I'm curious to see if Williams has improved his pass blocking skills compared to what we saw last preseason... that more than anything else eliminated him from the 53 man roster. The training camp battle that you mentioned will be intriguing. I think they may end up having 4 tailbacks on the roster aside from a fullback.

 

[superonyx]

Thick as a rock. I'll approach this from a different angle.

Back in the 2011 draft, the Cowboys were set to choose RB Ryan Williams with their 2nd round pick. Instead, the Arizona Cardinals picked Williams with the #38 pick, and the Cowboys settled for Bruce Carter at #40. Later, in the 3rd round, the Cowboys picked DeMarco Murray with the #71 pick. Of course, Williams blew his knee out in his rookie training camp, and once Bruce Arians took over as coach, Williams never got another chance to prove why he was a top 40 pick. Is it possible that the reason the Cowboys were so willing to let Murray walk is that they still have a pretty high opinion of Williams?

how high could their opinion of Williams be if they cut him last year? Murray, Randle, Dunbar were all considered more worthy of making the team than RW.

When Williams had his chance to start 3 games for Arizona the following season he averaged a whopping 2.8 ypc. He was released the following season because he was being out performed by the other backs in camp. Ryan Williams has played 1 full season in the last 7 years now. He was cut from the cardinals and the Cowboys. Teams generally don't cut players they think have what it takes to be starters.

Every team has backs like Ryan Williams buried on their depth chart of practice squads. He hasn't produced at a level worthy of this love fest either in college or the pros. Chances are we draft a back somewhere in the draft. This pick, McFadden, Randle will make the team. Williams and Dunbar will be competing and hoping they keep a 4th back on the roster.

 

[Silver N Blue]

RBs are proven to be a dime a dozen.

Denver trots out whoever and they produce.


So many teams who truly want to run the football run it with whoever they throw back there.

That's why smart teams don't spend a lot of money on that position.. It's a dime a dozen position.


Just don't neglect the run. That's all I ask.

Yes RBs are a dime a dozen but elite RBs are not.

 

[TwoDeep3]

No one knows what this team will do.

I see a lot of finite statements. I guess Madame Cleo is having her usual Draft Week Sale on palm reading.

 

[Zekeats]

Want to go deeper in the playoffs? Better build a champship worthy defense. Because that is what stopped our progress last year. The imability to slow down a crippled QB kept us from playing for the NFC Championship.

Um no.......a RB who slowed down at the end of the year and couldn't hit the 5 yard hole fast enough and wound up fumbling is what cost us to play in the NFC Championship.

 

[percyhoward]

Actually, I believe there is a correlation. The better you run the ball, the more you wear on a defense. That slows the pass rush.

We were actually better in 3rd and long passing situations in the first quarter of games than in the last three quarters.

3rd and 7+
1st Qtr
rating 110.2
conversions 45.0%

2nd-4th Qtr
rating 80.4
conversions 32.7%

 

[ufcrules1]

Want to go deeper in the playoffs? Better build a champship worthy defense. Because that is what stopped our progress last year. The imability to slow down a crippled QB kept us from playing for the NFC Championship.

Right, because Rodgers is so easy to stop. The Packers were undefeated at home in large part to him. We lost as a team out there not just because of our defense. We were the better team but we beat ourselves in that game. Now we have Hardy who is an elite pass rusher and Lee who if he can stay healthy huge. Also it is DL's second year and he is healthy. Is that not an improvement? We can also improve more through the draft but it is not our biggest need.

Our biggest need right now is RB. Just because we have a good line doesn't mean we can just plug any RB back there. The reason we were as successful as we were last year was because of the running game. It made everything better.

 

[ufcrules1]

I don't have a lot of faith in McFadden. I think it's a safer bet that Randle can average what Murray did with 60% of the carries. Let Williams or a rookie take another 30%, and throw it maybe a bit more to Beasley or Escobar like we did later in the season in 2014 and I think we're still likely to be pretty effective. If the defense improves, we'll have more opportunities late to put the OL to work and close out games.

There's more room to improve defensively than there is to improve the team with the RBs available between 27 and 91. Better to use the picks where they'll do the most good. Moving up for Gurley would be too expensive. Moving up for Gordon not worth it. After that, I'd rather have the guy who slips to 91 at that point personally. I could understand taking a guy in the second, but I'd prefer we go defense again there and really start adding some depth on that side of the ball. We really need it.

Randle average what Murray did? That is madness. Just because he came in a few times last year and looked good doesn't mean he can do it 60% of the time. As much as I loathe DMF, I can see him being our starter over Randle and a rookie if we wait all the way to the 3rd round. If we don't get a legit runner in this draft I don't like our chances of going to a super bowl.

 

[JoeKing]

how high could their opinion of Williams be if they cut him last year? Murray, Randle, Dunbar were all considered more worthy of making the team than RW.

When Williams had his chance to start 3 games for Arizona the following season he averaged a whopping 2.8 ypc. He was released the following season because he was being out performed by the other backs in camp. Ryan Williams has played 1 full season in the last 7 years now. He was cut from the cardinals and the Cowboys. Teams generally don't cut players they think have what it takes to be starters.

Every team has backs like Ryan Williams buried on their depth chart of practice squads. He hasn't produced at a level worthy of this love fest either in college or the pros. Chances are we draft a back somewhere in the draft. This pick, McFadden, Randle will make the team. Williams and Dunbar will be competing and hoping they keep a 4th back on the roster.

Your revisionist telling of Williams' past was entertaining but just not quite complete. He never produced at a level worthy of his draft pick because he suffered a season ending injury in his first training camp (2011). Not given a real chance his 2nd season and suffered a shoulder injury his 3rd season.

You mentioned the Cowboys cut him last year but that's not the whole story about that. If you think he was cut because the other RBs ran the ball better, you'd be wrong. They cut him because he needed to improve is pass blocking skills after being out of football the previous year due to his shoulder injury. They were so impressed with his running skills, they shut him down early from playing the last couple of preseason game so there wouldn't be tape on him and thus increase his chances of clearing the waiver wire. They wanted to put him on the practice squad to work on his blocking. For that reason and coming off a serious injury, he did not make the 53-man roster.

Now that he's had the extra year of working on his pass blocking with the Cowboy's coaching staff, they think Williams can be a complete and quality RB. Now we will see why the Cowboys valued him over Murray 4 years ago.

As for drafting a rookie RB... it's not going to happen with the first 3 picks. The draft starts today so wait and see how right I am.

 

[Gaede]

Said it for weeks. We have to get it right.

Get the right back. Miss or ignore, we go right back to .500 purgatory.

Exactly. We would have been toiling in mediocrity again last year without Murray putting in that performance and the coaches sticking with him.

Without that reliability, things would have been much different.

 

[CATCH17]

Yes RBs are a dime a dozen but elite RBs are not.

So what made Demarco elite? Or was he always elite?


I still think Demarco and McFadden are very similar players. It's hard to say that right now. 12 months ago.. Not so much.

So we'll see.