Williams Overrated, counterpoint

[MSalz87]

To sum up the first post, Roy Williams getting blasted for not covering well is unfair because he isnt a cover safety that defends passes the best, he's a run support safety that hits the best. Then if everyone is supposed to accept that Roy Williams isnt overrated because he is the best at what he does, then what do Cowboys fans think of Archuleta? He IMO is in the same build as RW, he can hit real well in run support, but he just isnt as much of a cover guy, on top of this their numbers are very similar.

In fact, Archuleta has averaged 81.8 tackles, 3 sacks, and 0.6 INT's per year, while Williams has averaged 88.25 tackles, 1.625 sacks, and 3 INT's per year.

Williams can cover a bit better, or at least catch better, and Archuleta can get to the QB better. Cowboys fans may ask why RW gets disrespected, while at the same time talking down the Commanders' signing of Archuleta, IMO they are both the same style player, and the thread starter is right, they shouldnt be judged on what they dont do as much as Peyton Manning isnt judged on how well he can scramble. Each safety is supposed to be paired with a cover guy to even out the qualities.

 

[Alexander]

I disagree with you here.. there's not a GM in the NFL that wouldn't love to have 1 player generate as much revenue for the organization as Roy Williams does... meaning, MANY MANY GM's/Owners in the NFL would be chomping at the bit to get Roy just for the pure REVENUE he generates. His being among the best safeties in the league is an added bonus and greatly improves the product they put on the field.

Any marquee player generates revenue.

Right now and for the past four years, Roy Williams has been that player.

Popular opinion at this point is to bash Roy Williams based on a handful of plays over the course of his career.

Conversely, he has been lauded for the handful of positive plays as well, not just by our fans, but by other team's fans as well. I still see his recent exploits being pushed into legendary status (the "amazing" McNabb interception, for example).

James Washington made more big plays for this franchise than Roy Williams ever has. Did he get the same treatment? Charlie Waters and Cliff Harris made more plays over the years than Roy Williams. Did they get the same treatment? It is a function of who he is right now and even more, the state of the team and franchise.

The "rating" is coming from Pete Prisco NOT THE "popular opinion" of THE FANS! PETE PRISCO... a medio who views Adrian Wilson to be a better safety than Roy Williams. Wilson, a guy with 8 sacks in 1 season is anointed to be among the best despite the fact that this 8 sack season was preceeded by 3 seasons of not having even TWO sacks in a single season.

And Williams' best ever sack output is 2 1/2. Sacks are a very overrated statistic, like most of them are, but if that is the criteria, then yes, Williams falls short of Wilson. Fault Prisco's criteria. That's a fair assessment. But the facts are there if you choose to follow that line of reasoning.

100 tackles and 8 sacks in 1 statistical anamoly of a season does not a great safety make.

Wilson also came into this league unheralded as a mid round draft choice. Isn't that the definition of "underrated" as opposed to a player that was drafted in the top ten, had a college resume to boot and has been viewed as the best player on his team since he came into the NFL? It is all about expectations. When you become famous, as Roy clearly is, then the legend swells. Each success is bigger, as is each of the failures.

If he happened to discuss the likes of Brian Dawkins and Ed Reed being better than Roy... there's not much to argue there because all 3 are great players and among the very best in the league... but throwing in Wilson just shows his extreme bias and hatred.

Not really. It just illustrates his point. There are players that get the fanfare and the press (Williams) and those that produce, yet go unnoticed (Wilson).

I do think his view that Wilson is superior to be offbase, but that is besides the point.

 

[AbeBeta]

I still don't get where people are saying Roy doesn't consistently make plays. His statistics show an outstanding rookie season and him being quite consistent ever since.

He's certainly as consistent as Brian Dawkins.

Actually if you want to talk statistics you'd have to say Roy's rookie year was better statistically then all of his other years. Looking at the % of each of his career #s we'd expect roughly equal values if your claim was correct (25% each year). With most players, we'd expect their #s to improve. Here's Roy rookie year % below. Note how all the values are over 25% indicating he wasn't as consistent since his rookie season.

Rookie year -- Tackles (28.6% of total career), Sacks (30.7%), Ints (41.7%), TD's (66.7%), forced fumbles (33.3%).

Roy had a great rookie year but his reputation seems to stem from that great start - his numbers have been worse since that year.

 

[Alexander]

Roy had a great rookie year but his reputation seems to stem from that great start - his numbers have been worse since that year.

But he's been "consistent" since then.

 

[TEK2000]

James Washington made more big plays for this franchise than Roy Williams ever has. Did he get the same treatment? Charlie Waters and Cliff Harris made more plays over the years than Roy Williams. Did they get the same treatment? It is a function of who he is right now and even more, the state of the team and franchise.

What's the basis of this argument? The idea that "Roy will never be as good as the guys from the Cowboys' 'good ole days'"?

You're obviously older than I am.. so all I have to go by are stats... and looking at the stats.. you're flat out WRONG.

 

[Alexander]

What's the basis of this argument? The idea that "Roy will never be as good as the guys from the Cowboys' 'good ole days'"?

You're obviously older than I am.. so all I have to go by are stats... and looking at the stats.. you're flat out WRONG.

I think I have already shown my distain for statistics.

But measure the plays. I don't have Washington's or Waters' statistics in front of me. But I do know for a fact, they helped us win games. Important ones at that.

I realize that Williams has only played in one playoff game in his career. And if you want to use that as a statistical measure, he is a failure.

My point is that as fans we DO overvalue what he does. That is what fans do for their marquee players. It is part of the job description.

 

[TEK2000]

Actually if you want to talk statistics you'd have to say Roy's rookie year was better statistically then all of his other years. Looking at the % of each of his career #s we'd expect roughly equal values if your claim was correct (25% each year). With most players, we'd expect their #s to improve. Here's Roy rookie year % below. Note how all the values are over 25% indicating he wasn't as consistent since his rookie season.

Rookie year -- Tackles (28.6% of total career), Sacks (30.7%), Ints (41.7%), TD's (66.7%), forced fumbles (33.3%).

Roy had a great rookie year but his reputation seems to stem from that great start - his numbers have been worse since that year.

That's LITERALLY what I said. He had an outstanding rookie season and the last 3 years were pretty consistent.

Name me a Safety in the league where their stats improve each year and I'll conciede that point. Unfortunately, most Safeties have inconsistent stats from year to year. In Roy's situation, as with any players, its just as important to consider the factors that affect their play responsibilites.. such as playing with Darren Woodson his rookie season compared to his responsibilities while playing with all the "other" guys since Woodson.

 

[TEK2000]

I think I have already shown my distain for statistics.

But measure the plays. I don't have Washington's or Waters' statistics in front of me. But I do know for a fact, they helped us win games. Important ones at that.

I realize that Williams has only played in one playoff game in his career. And if you want to use that as a statistical measure, he is a failure.

My point is that as fans we DO overvalue what he does. That is what fans do for their marquee players. It is part of the job description.

So we negate the fact that Washington played during the TRIPLETTS era and Waters played during the time of the first 2 Cowboys Super Bowl victories versus the quality of team Roy has been playing with during his tenure with the Boys? EDIT: Basically, in your assessment thus far, no player can be GREAT unless the TEAM wins "Important" games.

Roy hasn't helped us win games? Does it matter that the TEAM as a whole cannot get to the point where you would consider the games "Important ones at that".

 

[Alexander]

So we negate the fact that Washington played during the TRIPLETTS era

The Triplets were stymied in the second Super Bowl against Buffalo.

Washington made the play that won the game.

and Waters played during the time of the first 2 Cowboys Super Bowl victories versus the quality of team Roy has been playing with during his tenure with the Boys? EDIT: Basically, in your assessment thus far, no player can be GREAT unless the TEAM wins "Important" games.

Great players can play on bad teams.

It happens all the time. My contention is that while Roy might be the apple of our eye, he isn't the best in the game, nor has he achieved a level of greatness that we should appreciate as elite.

And no, my point was elementary. Williams has not come up with huge plays when it mattered consistently.

He had two such plays last year. And virtually zero since his rookie year.

I certainly hope that is a sign of better things to come.

But I won't sugarcoat his efforts thus far just to try to make a point, particularly when it comes to a "rating".

I really could care less, for example, if Julius Jones was not considered a top ten RB. If he does the job, that's enough for me.

And in regards to Roy, he does the job. I just don't feel the need to proclaim him the best, because that's not accurate.

Roy hasn't helped us win games? Does it matter that the TEAM as a whole cannot get to the point where you would consider the games "Important ones at that".

If a player is "elite", they do that.

Even on bad teams.

 

[TEK2000]

Washington made the play that won the game.

They won the game 30-13.......... I'd say its a little more than 1 play that gave them a lead like that.

nor has he achieved a level of greatness that we should appreciate as elite

What exactly is your definition of elite?

I haven't proclaimed him to be the best in the game... but I DO consider him to be among the best in the current game. Top 5 without a doubt IMO.

To be perfectly honest with you Alexander... I really believe you are discounting some of Roy's achievements saying he hasn't made HUGE plays since his rookie season to 2005. Consider the 2004 Seattle game in which everyone remembers it as Julius Jones' greatest game... well, Roy forces a fumble in the 3rd quarter that gives us the ball on the 21 yard line. 11 yard pass the Keyshawn then Julius scores a TD on a 10 yard run. The only other scores following that are a Dallas Field Goal and a Seattle TD... Cowboys win 43 to 39.

2003 vs Carolina.. 3rd quarter.
Ogbogu tips a pass at the LOS and Roy makes the INT. Run the ball 30 yards to the Carolina 11 yard line. We score a TD 2 plays later. A TD was scored by each team after that plus a FG for Carolina.
Boys win 24-20.

Just because he didn't score a TD (philly game 2) or cause a fumble at the 1 (Giants game 1) doesn't mean he hasn't made plays to change the outcome of games.

Goodnight for now.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Roy Williams is over-rated.

Wipe the "homer" off your face and see him for what he is... a "good" but not "great" player.

He couldn't hold Ed Reed's jock.

And if he thinks he's worth the same contract as Reed, he's out of his bloody mind.

 

[burmafrd]

Winicki, you are getting a rep for looking down on our own players.
Roy Williams is one of the top Safeties in the game- that makes him more then GOOD- you are a fool if you think that.
As a STRONG SAFETY- remember that is what he is- I would say he is if not the best certainly in the top 2 or 3. When you are one of the top 2-3 in the game you are better then GOOD. Stupid to think otherwise.
Reed is a top player- but he certainly is not GOD as you seem to think.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Winicki, you are getting a rep for looking down on our own players.
Roy Williams is one of the top Safeties in the game- that makes him more then GOOD- you are a fool if you think that.
As a STRONG SAFETY- remember that is what he is- I would say he is if not the best certainly in the top 2 or 3. When you are one of the top 2-3 in the game you are better then GOOD. Stupid to think otherwise.
Reed is a top player- but he certainly is not GOD as you seem to think.

Terrance Newman is a better corner than Roy Williams is a safety.

 

[burmafrd]

IF Newman is the best in the game- yes he is. If he is only one of the top 2-3, then no he isn't.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

IF Newman is the best in the game- yes he is. If he is only one of the top 2-3, then no he isn't.

If you really believe that Roy Williams is one of the 2-3 best strong safeties in football I have some income property that you'll love.

 

[THUMPER]

So the media considers Roy one-dimentional and therefore he isn't a great player yet Deion was extremely one-dimentional in that he could cover but wouldn't tackle anyone unless it was from behind, but they consider him one of the greatest ever (I don't for that very reason).

Stupid mediots.

I do agree that Roy is not as complete a player as I would like him to be and that he misses too many tackles because he is looking for that big hit, but he is still one of the best SS in the league and a force to be accounted for on every play. That pretty much definies a great player right there, if you have to account for his presence.

 

[burmafrd]

Winikci- show where Roy is not one of the top 2-3 Strong Safeties in the game. You can't, can you. No matter how much you want to.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

So the media considers Roy one-dimentional and therefore he isn't a great player yet Deion was extremely one-dimentional in that he could cover but wouldn't tackle anyone unless it was from behind, but they consider him one of the greatest ever (I don't for that very reason).

Give me a break... that is one of the goofiest analogies I've ever read.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Winikci- show where Roy is not one of the top 2-3 Strong Safeties in the game. You can't, can you. No matter how much you want to.

I said it...

So it must be true.

 

[superpunk]

Wasn't Brian Urlacher Prisco's most overrated last year?

Seemed to work out ok for him.

Roy's one of the top 5 safeties in the game. Unless you've watched Dawkins, Polamalu, Reed, Taylor and Williams every game of their careers, noone can really rank them. They're all phenomenal. But unless you watch them, you can't know how many times each got burnt, each had an INT put in their lap by a tipped pass, each made a spectacular play, each missed a tackle. Or how they are used in their system - are they playing center field? Are they low in the box constantly? Are they allowed free roam?

There's no way to really rank them. But if you're being fair, Roy is a top 5 safety. You could put him anywhere from 1 to 5 and be correct. He's been doing it consistently for years now.