WNBA fans?

[kristie]

Wooden is right.

he was a very wise man.

 

[Stautner]

Much like the Celtic when Bird was on the team. :laugh2:

There is truth to that. Even the Lakers at that time, who many thought of as a "run & gun" type team, played fundamental bseketball. They just did it at a faster pace.

Kareem Abdul Jabbar was on Mike and Mike this morning. They asked him why he thought there were so few true low post type centers now like there were in his day. Kareem's answer was that big men don't want to learn it, that it's not sexy the way handling the ball and jacking up the 3 pointers and driving for the dunks is, and that players want to do those things and not work on the fundamentals of being a dominant low post player. I believe that is true.

It's funny i saw Kareem this morning because I thought of him and how he was used when I watched Nowitzki the other night. They are obviosly different, and Nowitzki does a variety of things and doesn't really post up on the block much, but it was still a similar philosophy that the Lakers used with Jabbar. They were getting the ball into Nowitzki close to the basket, and with his back to the basket, and forcing the defense to choose to either double team or let Nowitzki work one on one. If they double teamed he kicked the ball out to one of the other shooters. Again, not the same as Jabbar, but a variation of the same idea.

 

[peplaw06]

You see missed dunks in the NBA - crap happens. There really isn't much question the girls play a more fundamental form of team basketball than the one-on-one idividual play style that dominates the NBA and even much of men's college basketball these days.

A dunk isn't something I think of as one of the fundamental plays of basketball. I've never seen someone that wide open miss two layups in a row. And that was in the Elite Eight of the women's NCAA tournament.

 

[Stautner]

A dunk isn't something I think of as one of the fundamental plays of basketball. I've never seen someone that wide open miss two layups in a row. And that was in the Elite Eight of the women's NCAA tournament.

Not fundamental, but it should be as close to a 100% completion percentage shot as there is.

The point was that even a layup will ocassionally get missed and that isn't an indication that fundamentals are missing.

In this case the girls just choked. Choking and lack of fundamentals are not the same thing.

 

[peplaw06]

Not fundamental, but it should be as close to a 100% completion percentage shot as there is.

The point was that even a layup will ocassionally get missed and that isn't an indication that fundamentals are missing.

In this case the girls just choked. Choking and lack of fundamentals are not the same thing.

I disagree. I think of a fundamental in the basketball context to be something that is instinctual... done successfully without thinking about it. Dribbling is fundamental. Passing is fundamental. Uncontested layups are fundamental. Not saying mistakes can't be made, because someone may dribble a ball off their own foot or make a bad pass. But it's just a mistake, and it's not the same as choking because of the stress level involved. And this isn't something that is rare in the women's game... at least not when I've watched the women's game.

 

[The30YardSlant]

You see missed dunks in the NBA - crap happens. There really isn't much question the girls play a more fundamental form of team basketball than the one-on-one idividual play style that dominates the NBA and even much of men's college basketball these days.

Is it still fundamental when you can't do it very well?

 

[rash]

yeah i dont think im the biggest fan of the WNBA. Its amazing, cause I love the NBA, but can't stand watching the same exact sport but with women playing instead.

I guess I'm kinda like that with all sports really. (I don't even watch lingerie football :laugh2: )

 

[Stautner]

I disagree. I think of a fundamental in the basketball context to be something that is instinctual... done successfully without thinking about it. Dribbling is fundamental. Passing is fundamental. Uncontested layups are fundamental. Not saying mistakes can't be made, because someone may dribble a ball off their own foot or make a bad pass. But it's just a mistake, and it's not the same as choking because of the stress level involved. And this isn't something that is rare in the women's game... at least not when I've watched the women's game.

Fundamentals is knowing how to play the game the correct way and working hard to always do that unselfishly. Blocking out instead of just trying to outjump people for rebounds. Moving your feet instead of reaching on defense. Looking for the good pass instead of forcing individual plays. Filling the lanes on fast breaks, making the outlet passes and being in positioin to receive the utlet passes, playing good backside defense, taking charges, knowing where to be and when to be there, understanding offensive and defensive responsibilitie etc ..........

Missing a layup has nothing to with all that.

The girl who missed the layup is probably a very fundamentally sound player. She made a physical error and probably let nerves get to her a bit.

Even the most fundamentally sound players in the history of basketball screw up at times, and sometimes even at key moments. It happens.

And teh thing is, even if you disagree, are you really going to use ONE GIRL as an argument for girls being less fundametally sound than men?

Is it still fundamental when you can't do it very well?

You can be fundamentally sound and still not be very good. That's why guys like Dean Smith, Coach K and Bobby Knight end up coaches and not NBA players.

I'm sure they were all decent enough college players though.

 

[peplaw06]

Fundamentals is knowing how to play the game the correct way and working hard to always do that unselfishly. Blocking out instead of just trying to outjump people for rebounds. Moving your feet instead of reaching on defense. Looking for the good pass instead of forcing individual plays. Filling the lanes on fast breaks, making the outlet passes and being in positioin to receive the utlet passes, playing good backside defense, taking charges, knowing where to be and when to be there, understanding offensive and defensive responsibilitie etc ..........

Missing a layup has nothing to with all that.

The girl who missed the layup is probably a very fundamentally sound player. She made a physical error and probably let nerves get to her a bit.

Even the most fundamentally sound players in the history of basketball screw up at times, and sometimes even at key moments. It happens.

And teh thing is, even if you disagree, are you really going to use ONE GIRL as an argument for girls being less fundametally sound than men?

I know what a fundamental is, thanks. And there's no doubt men as a whole do them better than women.

And no I'm not using one girl to make my opinion.

 

[Biggems]

Women's basketball is a prime example that just because you CAN do something doesnt mean that you SHOULD. Women are great at a lot of sports. Tennis, skating, gymnastics, softball, etc. Basketball is not one of them however, it was simply not designed with women in mind. It requires you do things that very few women can naturally do, and what you get is just a jumbled mess of turnovers and missed jumpers with the occasional dunk every other decade. Only three or four players in the history of women's basketball could even be a bench warmer on any college men's team at any level. A good 5A men's high school team would run the WNBA champs out of the building and I'm not entirely sure they would ever get the ball across half court if the men pressed the whole game.

so i guess we wont have to worry about your daughter ever living her basketball dreams.....daddy says girls can do anything they want, but play basketball......seriously, do you realize how oppressive you sound.

iwho really cares if men are better at basketball, baseball, football, soccer, tennis, or golf....really, this isnt about a comparison to men and women. this is about women playing basketball, and I am sure as hell for it.

GO STARS GO

 

[jimmy40]

fundamentals went away with the traveling call

 

[Temo]

Dunking is the most efficient play in the NBA. How is it not fundamental to the game?

Also, players now dribble better, pass better, defend better, and shoot better than they ever have before. NBA players in the past all came from street ball and pick up basketball. Now they're all in AAU leagues from the time they hit elementary school to when they go to college. They're drilled and conditioned and taught more than ever before, and from a younger age than ever before. They work harder now on average than any at point in league history.

The myth of decreased fundamentals in pro basketball needs to go away.

 

[Stautner]

I know what a fundamental is, thanks. And there's no doubt men as a whole do them better than women.

And no I'm not using one girl to make my opinion.

I don't know that yo do know. Dribbling and shooting a layup are basic physical skills, but that isn't what we are talking about.

We are talking about team play rather than one on one play. We are talking about working hard for position under the board, and unselfishly looking for the highest percentage shot for the team rather than focusing on one on one moves, we are talking about patience on offense and backside help on defense, and we are talking about any number of things like that. There is no question in the world that women focus on thsoe things dramatically more than men.

Men have become so athletic that they rely on their athleticism rather than fundmentals for success. That's what really isn't in doubt.

One thing I would challenge you to do is go see a quality women's team live. They won't wow yuo with the athleticism like the men do, but neither will they have as many turnovers, or find themselves comepletely out of position, or throwing up off balance long shots with a person in their face.

And frankly I think they will wow you anyway. It's amazing how far women have come and what they are capable of today. It isn't the old set shot, lack of creativity type of basketball many of us saw women play when we were younger.

The truth of it is that women don't have the athleticism to do what men do, so it is more essential for the women to work hard on fundamentals for success.

 

[peplaw06]

Dunking is the most efficient play in the NBA. How is it not fundamental to the game?

The only thing I'd say is that you don't have to be able to dunk to play at an elite level.

Also, players now dribble better, pass better, defend better, and shoot better than they ever have before. NBA players in the past all came from street ball and pick up basketball. Now they're all in AAU leagues from the time they hit elementary school to when they go to college. They're drilled and conditioned and taught more than ever before, and from a younger age than ever before. They work harder now on average than any at point in league history.

The myth of decreased fundamentals in pro basketball needs to go away.

Agreed.

Most people who question NBA fundamentals think that because NBA refs aren't as tight on traveling calls as at other levels, that means that fundamentals are lacking. I don't see it that way. And it's certainly not like they never call traveling in the NBA.

 

[Temo]

The only thing I'd say is that you don't have to be able to dunk to play at an elite level.

That's true. You don't need to dribble well or pass well to be elite, though you do need to be ABLE to do those things. So I guess from that point of view dunking isn't fundamental to the game.

It's just hard for me to imagine seeing a game of professional basketball played where guys aren't playing above the rim. It'd be like watching a football game where all the QBs were Chad Pennington.

Edit: And yes, as an NBA fan the "LeBron steps" infuriate me as well. The fact that allow certain guys more steps is dumb and I wish we'd fix that. But most guys still play with strict traveling rules.

 

[peplaw06]

I don't know that yo do know. Dribbling and shooting a layup are basic physical skills, but that isn't what we are talking about.

Dribbling and layups are fundamentals. I never said they were the only fundamentals, so you can quit pretending you're making some kind of earth-shattering analysis because you mentioned blocking out, running a fast break and playing defenses as fundamentals. I agree they're also fundamentals. I wasn't excluding them.

We are talking about team play rather than one on one play. We are talking about working hard for position under the board, and unselfishly looking for the highest percentage shot for the team rather than focusing on one on one moves, we are talking about patience on offense and backside help on defense, and we are talking about any number of things like that. There is no question in the world that women focus on thsoe things dramatically more than men.

You're wrong.

Men have become so athletic that they rely on their athleticism rather than fundmentals for success. That's what really isn't in doubt.

The best players are those who are crazy athletic and have fundamentals. Just because you focus on the athleticism more than you focus on the fundamentals doesn't mean the men don't play fundamentally sound basketball.

One thing I would challenge you to do is go see a quality women's team live. They won't wow yuo with the athleticism like the men do, but neither will they have as many turnovers, or find themselves comepletely out of position, or throwing up off balance long shots with a person in their face.

Prove it.

And what qualifies as a quality women's team?

And frankly I think they will wow you anyway. It's amazing how far women have come and what they are capable of today. It isn't the old set shot, lack of creativity type of basketball many of us saw women play when we were younger.

Women's basketball has certainly advanced with time. But it's still not entertaining to me.

The truth of it is that women don't have the athleticism to do what men do, so it is more essential for the women to work hard on fundamentals for success.

Doesn't mean they do the fundamentals better. They may do them well because you have to do them well to be successful at the game.... just like the men do.

 

[Temo]

I think there's an element of NBA players being so overtly super-athletic and so much of their basic game is beyond what the viewer can even THINK of doing that some people confuse it with lack of fundamentals.

 

[peplaw06]

That's true. You don't need to dribble well or pass well to be elite, though you do need to be ABLE to do those things. So I guess from that point of view dunking isn't fundamental to the game.

It's just hard for me to imagine seeing a game of professional basketball played where guys aren't playing above the rim. It'd be like watching a football game where all the QBs were Chad Pennington.

Edit: And yes, as an NBA fan the "LeBron steps" infuriate me as well. The fact that allow certain guys more steps is dumb and I wish we'd fix that. But most guys still play with strict traveling rules.

Agreed all around.

The guys are definitely more athletic. There is no argument there. What you said about them playing above the rim is what draws in the huge numbers of fans, and it's what drives the highlight shows. But what they don't usually show you on the highlight shows is the flawless pick and roll or the perfectly set back screen that gets a guy free so he can do his thing above the rim and make the highlight-reel play.

So people see dunk after dunk and claim men have lost the fundamentals, and all they do is jump out of the building. It's completely bogus.

All of the NBA players have amazing athleticism. But the most athletic aren't always the best. Guys like Jason Kidd and Steve Nash in their prime did the fundamental things right. Dirk Nowitzki and Tim Duncan aren't the most athletic 7-footers out there. But they're two of the best ever because they do the fundamentals... Dirk moreso on offense than defense, but his defense has gotten better on the defensive end.

 

[Temo]

And besides, who doesn't love seeing this:

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/********/2011/05/302146162.jpg

And by "this" of course, I'm talking about Ibaka's sick block out on Dirk.

 

[Stautner]

Dribbling and layups are fundamentals. I never said they were the only fundamentals, so you can quit pretending you're making some kind of earth-shattering analysis because you mentioned blocking out, running a fast break and playing defenses as fundamentals. I agree they're also fundamentals. I wasn't excluding them.

You're wrong.

The best players are those who are crazy athletic and have fundamentals. Just because you focus on the athleticism more than you focus on the fundamentals doesn't mean the men don't play fundamentally sound basketball.

Prove it.

And what qualifies as a quality women's team?

Women's basketball has certainly advanced with time. But it's still not entertaining to me.

Doesn't mean they do the fundamentals better. They may do them well because you have to do them well to be successful at the game.... just like the men do.

This is bordering on ridiculous now.

Your Wrong? Now there's a quality argument.

I ask you to go see a women's game and you will see how they play and yuor response is "prove it"? That doesn't even make sense. The way to "prove it" is for you to go to a women's game. Or are you asking me to come by your house and pick you up and take you to the game - is that it?

And you ask "what qualifies as a quality women's team"? Is that a real question? It's the same as what qualifies as a quality team in any sport - a team that is successful at what they do. Obviously with any sport and regardless of gender you aren't going to see much from watching the bottom of the barrel teams.

And, of course the best players are those that have crazy athleticism and have the best fundamentals. I have no idea what point you thought you made by saying that.

And so what if women's basketball isn't entertaining to you - that says nothing about fundamentals, so again I have no idea what point you thought you made.

My guess is yu just really haven't watched women's basektball enough to know, and particularly haven't watched it live - likely a typical fan that really doesn't know the nuances of the game and the fundamentals of team play and get caught up in the dunks and flash of the men's game.