Women's World Cup

[DFWJC]

I see the soccer thread has transformed

hey, we're bored

 

[atlantacowboy]

Again, that simply isn't true. When the UFC created a women's division aka when they absorbed strikeforce they named her champion. Literally anyone could have done the same. What did she do to headline? She beat opponents in a forming weight class? Again, who did she beat and could these other women not have done the same? If the UFC decides on 145 lbs vs 135 for instance, that would have opened things up.

Why did it take years for her to fight people on the quality of holm and nunes? This is a media created and UFC generated propaganda. Let's give someone the championship, put her up against people who have no business fighting in a title fight and when she racks up wins, people will get excited.

Don't look too deep into this comparison, but look at Goldberg in the WCW. It's very easy to generate popularity and buzz and anyone could have been put in that place. Name one champion or pre-existing champion that she beat.

She was not handed anything. The UFC had no womens division prior to buying strikeforce. Rousey beat M Tate in strikeforce to WIN the 135lb belt. Why would the UFC strip her of the belt when they had no equivalent? That would make no sense.

This is all a matter of history and you can't re-write it. Rousey was the first. These other girls may be better fighters BUT the only reason anyone knows their name is b/c they beat Rhonda Rousey. Rousey is the reason they are able to make a living in MMA. Not even debatable.

 

[Galian Beast]

She was not handed anything. The UFC had no womens division prior to buying strikeforce. Rousey beat M Tate in strikeforce to WIN the 135lb belt. Why would the UFC strip her of the belt when they had no equivalent? That would make no sense.

This is all a matter of history and you can't re-write it. Rousey was the first. These other girls may be better fighters BUT the only reason anyone knows their name is b/c they beat Rhonda Rousey. Rousey is the reason they are able to make a living in MMA. Not even debatable.

No champion from absorbed companies were ever handed a belt when they came to UFC.

There was no reason she should have become the UFC champion simply because she was the strikeforce champion.

The best fighters in women's MMA were largely Featherweight. They could have easily opened things up as Featherweight, but instead they stuck with Bantamweight, which pushed the best fighters largely out.

When Holm came into the UFC it took a year and a half for her to get a fight with Rousey. There are probably 5-6 fighters who are head over shoulders better than Rousey, who largely never got an opportunity because of how UFC was set up.

 

[atlantacowboy]

No champion from absorbed companies were ever handed a belt when they came to UFC.

There was no reason she should have become the UFC champion simply because she was the strikeforce champion.

The best fighters in women's MMA were largely Featherweight. They could have easily opened things up as Featherweight, but instead they stuck with Bantamweight, which pushed the best fighters largely out.

When Holm came into the UFC it took a year and a half for her to get a fight with Rousey. There are probably 5-6 fighters who are head over shoulders better than Rousey, who largely never got an opportunity because of how UFC was set up.

That is b/c there was no UFC women's champion. The men is an entirely different situation and not comparable.

Again, i'm not arguing that Rousey was the best. I'm saying the women who beat her owe their livelihood to her. Nobody cared about women's MMA before Rousey.

 

[joseephuss]

That is b/c there was no UFC women's champion. The men is an entirely different situation and not comparable.

Again, i'm not arguing that Rousey was the best. I'm saying the women who beat her owe their livelihood to her. Nobody cared about women's MMA before Rousey.

Yep, it all has to start somewhere. The worst teams in today's NBA or NFL would destroy the first champions of their respective leagues.

 

[atlantacowboy]

Yep, it all has to start somewhere. The worst teams in today's NBA or NFL would destroy the first champions of their respective leagues.

I think George Mikan would peak in division 2 today.,,,,,,but you still have to respect.

 

[Galian Beast]

That is b/c there was no UFC women's champion. The men is an entirely different situation and not comparable.

Again, i'm not arguing that Rousey was the best. I'm saying the women who beat her owe their livelihood to her. Nobody cared about women's MMA before Rousey.

They don't owe their livelihoods to her, because if they were put in her position (which they would have been had there been a tournament or ranking system) they would have been just as dominant if not more so.

 

[Galian Beast]

Yep, it all has to start somewhere. The worst teams in today's NBA or NFL would destroy the first champions of their respective leagues.

You know many of these fighters are the exact same age as Rousey right? It's not that she kicked off this thing for others that followed her. She got opportunities that they were largely denied by a lack of a tournament or ranking system that allowed Rousey to face grapplers that were less experienced than her.

 

[Rockport]

You know many of these fighters are the exact same age as Rousey right? It's not that she kicked off this thing for others that followed her. She got opportunities that they were largely denied by a lack of a tournament or ranking system that allowed Rousey to face grapplers that were less experienced than her.

You got beat badly in this thread.

 

[atlantacowboy]

They don't owe their livelihoods to her, because if they were put in her position (which they would have been had there been a tournament or ranking system) they would have been just as dominant if not more so.

The stage is already shrinking in Rousey's absence. Nunez cannot carry a card and has to be paired with the likes of Jon Jones to get anyone to watch. Sure Nunez might have dominated had she been in Rousey's position. But, that is not what happened. Nunez might be a better fighter but thats not making folks want to see her fight

 

[Galian Beast]

You got beat badly in this thread.

Keep telling yourself that.

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

Coenen on Rousey - "She is a great grappler. The way she took out Sarah Kaufman was amazing and so unexpected to me. But she does lack balls, she judoed at 154lbs, entered Strikeforce at 145lbs and when she had to fight Cris Cyborg she dropped to 135lbs. Using me as an example. Let me tell you this, I fought Cyborg (and will do so in the future again) and then was asked by Strikeforce to drop to 135lbs. Having said all this, career wise it was really smart of her and she deserves a master in PR. She doesn’t care how she gets there, as long as she gets there. And she’s successful at it, looking at the magazine covers like ESPN and changing Dana White’s mind."

Are we really trying to treat what one fighter says about another as objective fact?

The chatter of one fighter supposedly being a fraud or ducking a fight is standard parlance in the fighting sports world.

BTW, Rousey beat Cat Zingano in Feb. 2015. Cyborg came in to the UFC in March 2015. Rousey’s next fight was Beth Correia in August 2015 and she subsequently lost to Holly Holms in Nov. 2015 (then put on medical suspension). She didn’t fight again until Dec. 2016 against Nunez, which was the same time Cyborg got popped for steroid masking agents.

Where’s the ducking?

 

[Galian Beast]

Are we really trying to treat what one fighter says about another as objective fact?

The chatter of one fighter supposedly being a fraud or ducking a fight is standard parlance in the fighting sports world.

BTW, Rousey beat Cat Zingano in Feb. 2015. Cyborg came in to the UFC in March 2015. Rousey’s next fight was Beth Correia in August 2015 and she subsequently lost to Holly Holms in Nov. 2015 (then put on medical suspension). She didn’t fight again until Dec. 2016 against Nunez, which was the same time Cyborg got popped for steroid masking agents.

Where’s the ducking?

It's not a fact, it's an opinion from a subject matter expert but the "chatter" is backed by facts. Who are the best female MMA fighters? Did she fight them? No, she didn't. She stayed safe at bantamweight which was underdeveloped. She defended the UFC belt only six times before getting owned in her 7th UFC defense against Holm. Many of the fighters weren't undefeated and there was never a tournament to decide a number one contender, which bought her time. There is no coincidence that she lost back to back in her prime years. She's 32 right now and started losing 4 years ago... Holly Holm is 37 and Amanda Nunes is 31.

Why couldn't either of them get a fight earlier? Why couldn't Valentina Shevchenko get a fight? Germaine de Randamie? Marloes Coenen.

The ranking system was established in 2013 and within 2 years, Rousey was getting her butt kicked.

She never defeated a UFC champion at any weight. GOAT level who is dominating her weight class but doesn't fight anyone at 145? There was a reason for that. Most fighters will try to fight a champion in a weight class above them, particularly if they're a great fighter.

Cormier - lightweight and heavyweight championships.

Nunes has beaten 6 different UFC champions.

So to clarify, I'm not saying Rousey is terrible, I'm just saying she was one dimensional and not nearly as good as her billing suggested.

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

It's not a fact, it's an opinion from a subject matter expert but the "chatter" is backed by facts. Who are the best female MMA fighters? Did she fight them? No, she didn't. She stayed safe at bantamweight which was underdeveloped. She defended the UFC belt only six times before getting owned in her 7th UFC defense against Holm. Many of the fighters weren't undefeated and there was never a tournament to decide a number one contender, which bought her time. There is no coincidence that she lost back to back in her prime years. She's 32 right now and started losing 4 years ago... Holly Holm is 37 and Amanda Nunes is 31.

Why couldn't either of them get a fight earlier? Why couldn't Valentina Shevchenko get a fight? Germaine de Randamie? Marloes Coenen.

The ranking system was established in 2013 and within 2 years, Rousey was getting her butt kicked.

She never defeated a UFC champion at any weight. GOAT level who is dominating her weight class but doesn't fight anyone at 145? There was a reason for that. Most fighters will try to fight a champion in a weight class above them, particularly if they're a great fighter.

Cormier - lightweight and heavyweight championships.

Nunes has beaten 6 different UFC champions.

So to clarify, I'm not saying Rousey is terrible, I'm just saying she was one dimensional and not nearly as good as her billing suggested.

Yeah, there are technically facts (e.g. names, weights, dates, etc.) interspersed in there but there’s also motive mongering which is baseless.

“She defended the UFC belt only six times [...]”

Why do you think that’s a mark against her?

You do realize she only held the UFC belt less than 3 years? Most top fighters only fight 2-3 times a years max. Factor in the fact she was also participating in TUF which delays scheduling.

Further, choosing opponents is a much more selective process because it’s a business and Dana White (and Zuffa LLC at the time) are trying to maximize the earning potential of the fight.

 

[Galian Beast]

Yeah, there are technically facts (e.g. names, weights, dates, etc.) interspersed in there but there’s also motive mongering which is baseless.

“She defended the UFC belt only six times [...]”

Why do you think that’s a mark against her?

You do realize she only held the UFC belt less than 3 years? Most top fighters only fight 2-3 times a years max. Factor in the fact she was also participating in TUF which delays scheduling.

Further, choosing opponents is a much more selective process because it’s a business and Dana White (and Zuffa LLC at the time) are trying to maximize the earning potential of the fight.

You haven't defended against anything I've said here.

The point here is people are making her out to be much better than she was. She'll never go down as one of the best female fighters in history. There are at least 5 women right now that are better than her, let alone 10-20-50 years from now. She'll be remembered because of the buzz White and the UFC created for her.

Most top fighters and champions have beaten other top fighters and champions. That ranking system didn't start until 2013. Guess how many of the top 10 fighters Rousey has fought.


AMANDA NUNES - got destroyed
CHAMPION

1 Germaine De Randamie - never fought her
2 Ketlen Vieira - never fought her
3 Holly Holm - got destroyed
4 Julianna Peña - never fought her
5 Aspen Ladd - never fought her
6 Raquel Pennington - never fought her
7 Cat Zingano - beat her
8 Yana Kunitskaya - never fought her
9 Marion Reneau - never fought her
10 Irene Aldana - never fought her

Of the top 5 fighters currently, she lost to 2 and never fought the other 3.

In the top 11 she has lost to 2 and only beaten 1, never fought any of the others.

And this list doesn't even include top fighters Schevchenko, Cyborg, Andrade.

She beat who she fought, which is all you can do, but when you duck actual competition and have your opponents hand picked for you... that doesn't make you great. Certainly doesn't make her the best female athlete or fighter. No other sport would allow you to do this. Serena Williams doesn't get to duck competition, you play who advances and that's that. The USWNT can't duck competition. You can't duck competition in the WNBA.

You can't be the best unless you beat the best and Rousey has a poor resume, she fought some decent fighters, but largely fought nobodies who weren't as good in grappling as she was and they had little striking capabilities which meant that her biggest weakness wasn't exposed.

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

You haven't defended against anything I've said here.

The point here is people are making her out to be much better than she was. She'll never go down as one of the best female fighters in history. There are at least 5 women right now that are better than her, let alone 10-20-50 years from now. She'll be remembered because of the buzz White and the UFC created for her.

Most top fighters and champions have beaten other top fighters and champions. That ranking system didn't start until 2013. Guess how many of the top 10 fighters Rousey has fought.


AMANDA NUNES - got destroyed
CHAMPION

1 Germaine De Randamie - never fought her
2 Ketlen Vieira - never fought her
3 Holly Holm - got destroyed
4 Julianna Peña - never fought her
5 Aspen Ladd - never fought her
6 Raquel Pennington - never fought her
7 Cat Zingano - beat her
8 Yana Kunitskaya - never fought her
9 Marion Reneau - never fought her
10 Irene Aldana - never fought her

Of the top 5 fighters currently, she lost to 2 and never fought the other 3.

In the top 11 she has lost to 2 and only beaten 1, never fought any of the others.

And this list doesn't even include top fighters Schevchenko, Cyborg, Andrade.

She beat who she fought, which is all you can do, but when you duck actual competition and have your opponents hand picked for you... that doesn't make you great. Certainly doesn't make her the best female athlete or fighter. No other sport would allow you to do this. Serena Williams doesn't get to duck competition, you play who advances and that's that. The USWNT can't duck competition. You can't duck competition in the WNBA.

You can't be the best unless you beat the best and Rousey has a poor resume, she fought some decent fighters, but largely fought nobodies who weren't as good in grappling as she was and they had little striking capabilities which meant that her biggest weakness wasn't exposed.

So now we’re at the point where I specifically deal with your arguments and you summarily claim I haven’t addressed anything you’ve brought up.

Ok.

I mean seriously, if you don’t understand how rationally devoid this point of yours is I simply can’t help you:

“Of the top 5 fighters currently, she lost to 2 and never fought the other 3.”

Rousey hasn’t fought since 2016, lool.

Your argument is the logical cousin of “Oh yeah!?! Well if the 1995 Cowboys were so great why didn’t play any of the current Top 5 teams in league right now?”

I’ve never claimed Rousey was the greatest female fighter of all-time. That’s just a strawman.

 

[Galian Beast]

So now we’re at the point where I specifically deal with your arguments and you summarily claim I haven’t addressed anything you’ve brought up.

Ok.

I mean seriously, if you don’t understand how rationally devoid this point of yours is I simply can’t help you:

“Of the top 5 fighters currently, she lost to 2 and never fought the other 3.”

Rousey hasn’t fought since 2016, lool.

Your argument is the logical cousin of “Oh yeah!?! Well if the 1995 Cowboys were so great why didn’t play any of the current Top 5 teams in league right now?”

I’ve never claimed Rousey was the greatest female fight of all-time. That’s just a strawman.

You think all of these fighters started fighting in 2015? No most of the people in the top 11 have been fighting for years. They just never got a chance to fight Rousey. Again you continue to dance around because you have nothing to provide against what I've said. It's almost funny that you think you have.

These fighters didn't get a chance to fight her because the rank system wasn't in place and Rousey et all were allowed to pick her own opponents.

 

[Galian Beast]

Your argument is the logical cousin of “Oh yeah!?! Well if the 1995 Cowboys were so great why didn’t play any of the current Top 5 teams in league right now?”

That you think this is the same logically suggests you don't understand logic.

1. The Cowboys of 1995 aren't the Cowboys of 2019
2. The top 5 teams in the league in 2019 weren't around in 2015.

That has nothing to do with whether Rousey fought the best fighters between 2013 and 2016. Did she? No.

 

[Galian Beast]

Let's look at Rousey's opponents (let's stick with UFC for now)

1. Liz Carmouche, age 35, still fighting, but not as a bantamweight ranked 3rd (4th) in flyweight.
2. Miesha Tate, age 32, retired in 2016. Probably the best Rousey beat. Only champion, though not at the time Rousey fought her. Last fight was against 6th (7th) ranked bantamweight fighter.
3. Sara McMann, age 38, currently ranked 11th (12) in bantamweight.
4. Alexis Davis, age 34, currently ranked 7th (8th) in flyweight.
5. Cat Zigano, age 37, currently ranked 8th (9th) in bantamweight.
6. Beth Correia, age 36, unranked, but just recently lost to 10th (11th) ranked bantamweight fighter.
7. Holly Holm, age 37, 3rd ranked (4th). Beat Rousey.
8. Amanda Nunes, age 31, champion, beat rousey.

Should be noted that Rousey is 32, but what do all these fighters have in common except Holm and Nunes? They aren't ranked very high in that bantam weight class. The only two that were both destroyed her in the ring. As soon as she started fighting legitimate fighters, she started losing. As the division continue to form, she decided to retire at 29 or 30. There's no more hiding, so what did she do? She quit... I'm not even sure how people are trying to argue counter to that.

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

You think all of these fighters started fighting in 2015? No most of the people in the top 11 have been fighting for years. They just never got a chance to fight Rousey. Again you continue to dance around because you have nothing to provide against what I've said. It's almost funny that you think you have.

These fighters didn't get a chance to fight her because the rank system wasn't in place and Rousey et all were allowed to pick her own opponents.

I’m not dancing around anything. I’ve addressed your points straight on. You’re simply just repeating the the points and claiming I’m ducking.

That’s on you not me.

She fought Holly Holm...she fought Nunez...she fought Cat Zigano...

Oh, let me guess....she didn’t fight (name fighter here).

Like I said, you’re naming a bunch of other fighters without context. She would have had to fight 8-9 times a year to have fought everyone on your list.

Your understanding of how the fight game works is naive.

Every champion has their opponents selected. You’re also not factoring the fact that just because you’re a contender that doesn’t mean you deserve a shot at the champion.

Like I said, you’re just naming names in vacuum.