Wrestling Icon The Ultimate Warrior Dead at 54

[BoysFan4ever]

I'm not a wrestling guy, but I watched the video...

The guy was out of breath and sweating during the whole speech... he was already in distress...

He was exhibiting heart problems right there in front of our eyes...

Prayers to the family...

That really is very sad.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

It's silly to think that Bret wasn't a superstar of his in-ring work. His entire gimmick was the 'excellence of execution.'

Yep. It is silly to think that Bret Hart wasn't one of the best ever for his in-ring work.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

This applies to most of the wrestlers seems like, to me anyway. And it makes sense - choreograph choreograph choreograph. Safety safety safety. No real surprises for the opponent you are facing. Just dance the routine and don't miss your cues.

It wasn't always like that.

When guys were wrestling 300 days a year there wasn't "choreograph" time.

The guys new how the finish was suppose to go, how much time they had and were then left to their own devices to how they got there. Consequently matches tended to be longer, and with more rest holds throughout. But they didn't have choreographed look to them that you see today. In that aspect they were more believable.

 

[CashMan]

It wasn't always like that.

When guys were wrestling 300 days a year there wasn't "choreograph" time.

The guys new how the finish was suppose to go, how much time they had and were then left to their own devices to how they got there. Consequently matches tended to be longer, and with more rest holds throughout. But they didn't have choreographed look to them that you see today. In that aspect they were more believable.

Or maybe, in the past, you just had big guys(muscle guys) who were all show, who did not know how to wrestle, like a Hogan or Warrior vs today's wrestlers.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

Yep. It is silly to think that Bret Hart wasn't one of the best ever for his in-ring work.

In-ring wrestling style is generally extremely important. If you don't have a style and a moveset then it doesn't feed into what the character is about and makes it more difficult to get into the matches.

Warrior had a style. It was this high intensity style with him sprinting down the ring shaking the ropes and then doing some clotheslines, the shoulder block, then the gorilla press slam and then the splash.

Without that, he would have never gotten over nearly as well and more or less would have been a bland wrestler with a great physique like Lex Luger. This is the problem with wrestlers like Curtis Axel. There is no real in-ring style. I would have to be very focused in on watching his matches to tell you what his signature moves and spots are. Mainly because he has zero offense and after a while, the audience doesn't accept him as being a capable wrestler. He's more or less a wrestler that does pedestrian moves and gets dominated for most of the match.

Bret didn't have Warrior's look or intensity. Few do. He was a decent promo (he did come up with a good catchphrase). But in order to be a superstar, he had to be great in the ring. Having great matches, but also having a very identifiable moveset and wrestling style.

Warrior had a style, a look and energy, but it didn't go beyond that. And after a while the promotion has to get other wrestlers over and if you have a wrestler like the Warrior that is a one trick pony that can't go beyond 3 minutes in the ring without looking worse and worse, it limits what he can do and what the promotion can do.






YR

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Or maybe, in the past, you just had big guys(muscle guys) who were all show, who did not know how to wrestle, like a Hogan or Warrior vs today's wrestlers.

Wrestling has always had a mix... the muscle-bound guys who couldn't wrestle... the true "shooters"... the high-flyers... the super heavyweights. That mix is far less noticeable today because there are so fewer organizations out there.

But the same "recipe" for putting on a wrestling match was the same for decades... Give the guys what the finish is, give them a time limit and let them work out the details. Now with a much smaller schedule, smaller rosters and the fans expecting more dare-devil moves, choreography is the rule of the day.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Warrior had a style, a look and energy, but it didn't go beyond that. And after a while the promotion has to get other wrestlers over and if you have a wrestler like the Warrior that is a one trick pony that can't go beyond 3 minutes in the ring without looking worse and worse, it limits what he can do and what the promotion can do.


YR

Well said. The Warrior was a superstar for a brief period of time. But he wasn't an all-time-great for the reason you just post.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

It wasn't always like that.

When guys were wrestling 300 days a year there wasn't "choreograph" time.

The guys new how the finish was suppose to go, how much time they had and were then left to their own devices to how they got there. Consequently matches tended to be longer, and with more rest holds throughout. But they didn't have choreographed look to them that you see today. In that aspect they were more believable.

Matches lasted longer back then, so you could have more time to work the crowd. And the audience's attention span is shorter these days. In part because wrestlers hot-shotted their wrestling style to give the audience instant gratification, so the audience started to expect more and expect it more quickly in the match.

You also don't have squash matches anymore.

It used to be that if you had a feud between a heel and a face, they wouldn't face each other in the ring until the big card. If they faced off against each other, it was usually during an interview. In the meantime, the face would wrestled against a jobber and get his moveset in and the heel would wrestle against a jobber and get his moveset in. This allowed the audience to see what both wrestlers were capable of in the ring and familiarize them with their moveset (set up moves, big moves, and then the finisher).

So when the face vs. heel occurred in the big card, the match was longer and the audience could tell when one wrestler hit a certain signature move, that they were closer to victory. And they could have longer matches and work the crowd.

Now it is completely different. The face and the heel wrestle a bunch of matches against each other and there are no squash matches against jobbers. Each wrestler wants to get their spots in and by the time they have the blow-off in the PPV, the fans have already seen these two wrestle a handful of times. Then the PPV matches are shorter and it's all about getting their offense in instead of working the audience. And because this has been going on for so long, most wrestlers have no real experience of calling a match in the ring and working the crowd. They let the crowd work them.






YR

 

[CashMan]

I don't disagree. My point is, the money that was made in the 80s-90s was with big hulking guys, who were all show and wrestling ability. It wasn't until WCW put the high flyers out there, and even then it took WWF buying WCW for them to use those guys.

My favorite wrestlers were: Bret Hart, Sting, Ultimate Warrior and the Road Warriors.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Now it is completely different. The face and the heel wrestle a bunch of matches against each other and there are no squash matches against jobbers. Each wrestler wants to get their spots in and by the time they have the blow-off in the PPV, the fans have already seen these two wrestle a handful of times. Then the PPV matches are shorter and it's all about getting their offense in instead of working the audience. And because this has been going on for so long, most wrestlers have no real experience of calling a match in the ring and working the crowd. They let the crowd work them.



YR

Sad but true.

And consequently any sort of "realness" to the match has been removed.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

I don't disagree. My point is, the money that was made in the 80s-90s was with big hulking guys, who were all show and wrestling ability. It wasn't until WCW put the high flyers out there, and even then it took WWF buying WCW for them to use those guys.

My favorite wrestlers were: Bret Hart, Sting, Ultimate Warrior and the Road Warriors.

But really the big, muscle bound guys had their best matches when pitted against smaller opponents who could actually wrestle a lick.

And outside the WWF– the NWA, the AWA and even ECW was usually headed by a champion who could wrestle.

 

[CashMan]

But really the big, muscle bound guys had their best matches when pitted against smaller opponents who could actually wrestle a lick.

And outside the WWF– the NWA, the AWA and even ECW was usually headed by a champion who could wrestle.

Right, but I think that shows you, where the money was/is. WWf survived, none of those really did.

 

[DanteEXT]

Matches lasted longer back then, so you could have more time to work the crowd. And the audience's attention span is shorter these days. In part because wrestlers hot-shotted their wrestling style to give the audience instant gratification, so the audience started to expect more and expect it more quickly in the match.

You also don't have squash matches anymore.

It used to be that if you had a feud between a heel and a face, they wouldn't face each other in the ring until the big card. If they faced off against each other, it was usually during an interview. In the meantime, the face would wrestled against a jobber and get his moveset in and the heel would wrestle against a jobber and get his moveset in. This allowed the audience to see what both wrestlers were capable of in the ring and familiarize them with their moveset (set up moves, big moves, and then the finisher).

So when the face vs. heel occurred in the big card, the match was longer and the audience could tell when one wrestler hit a certain signature move, that they were closer to victory. And they could have longer matches and work the crowd.

Now it is completely different. The face and the heel wrestle a bunch of matches against each other and there are no squash matches against jobbers. Each wrestler wants to get their spots in and by the time they have the blow-off in the PPV, the fans have already seen these two wrestle a handful of times. Then the PPV matches are shorter and it's all about getting their offense in instead of working the audience. And because this has been going on for so long, most wrestlers have no real experience of calling a match in the ring and working the crowd. They let the crowd work them.






YR

I miss jobbers. Now they are all backend name guys on the roster that creative has no real story to push with them.

My dad knew a guy that wrestled a lot in small/local promotions and such, then when WWE (WWF at that time) came to a nearby big city he got called in to wrestle a match against a superstar. Get paid a few hundred bucks and go home.

 

[CashMan]

I miss jobbers. Now they are all backend name guys on the roster that creative has no real story to push with them.

My dad knew a guy that wrestled a lot in small/local promotions and such, then when WWE (WWF at that time) came to a nearby big city he got called in to wrestle a match against a superstar. Get paid a few hundred bucks and go home.

The problem I see, everyone uses a name, like Kurt Angel or what ever Curt Hennings kid name is. No one uses something like The Ultimate Warrior or Papa Shango.

 

[Risen Star]

Bret got over because of his technical skills and ability in the ring. He never had solid mic skills, but was always respected because of his athletic ability.

Owen Hart was a better technical wrestler. Bret admits that.Yet he was never a star.

No professional wrestler becomes a star based on his wrestling ability.

 

[Stryker44]

Owen Hart was a better technical wrestler. Bret admits that.Yet he was never a star.

No professional wrestler becomes a star based on his wrestling ability.

Brock Lesnar sure did.

 

[TheSport78]

Owen Hart was a better technical wrestler. Bret admits that.Yet he was never a star.

No professional wrestler becomes a star based on his wrestling ability.

Not solely based on wrestling ability, but that was Bret's bread and butter. He got over mainly because people respected his work in the ring as an undersized guy.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

I miss jobbers. Now they are all backend name guys on the roster that creative has no real story to push with them.

My dad knew a guy that wrestled a lot in small/local promotions and such, then when WWE (WWF at that time) came to a nearby big city he got called in to wrestle a match against a superstar. Get paid a few hundred bucks and go home.

The jobbers that were booked a lot of the time and often traveled with the company were often some of the best workers in the company. They usually either had something that held them back. Johnny Rodz was a great worker. I saw him wrestle at an independent show that was part of the WWF and he was the star and he was flat out incredible. But, he didn’t have the look. Barry Horowitz could really wrestle and work, but lacked the look and offense to really get over. But many of them were guys that only wanted to work part-time and not give up their day job.


The guys that job now are more lower-end on the card guys that the company once had some interest in and now don’t know what to do with them. And they are not great workers so they really don’t get the other wrestler as over as the old jobbers could do.


Where I miss the jobbers is that they helped make the heels. Back in the day of squash matches you could have a heel that would show how good they were without having to cheat. But, the heel would cheat because that was part of his nature…he didn’t need to cheat, but took the shortcut. That would make the heel more hated.


Now with the heels wrestling non-jobbers, they have to cheat to win almost every time and it hurts the appeal of both wrestlers. The heel comes off as less talented because he has to cheat to win and the face looks stupid because he falls for the same old tricks.




YR

 

[DanteEXT]

The jobbers that were booked a lot of the time and often traveled with the company were often some of the best workers in the company. They usually either had something that held them back. Johnny Rodz was a great worker. I saw him wrestle at an independent show that was part of the WWF and he was the star and he was flat out incredible. But, he didn’t have the look. Barry Horowitz could really wrestle and work, but lacked the look and offense to really get over. But many of them were guys that only wanted to work part-time and not give up their day job.


The guys that job now are more lower-end on the card guys that the company once had some interest in and now don’t know what to do with them. And they are not great workers so they really don’t get the other wrestler as over as the old jobbers could do.


Where I miss the jobbers is that they helped make the heels. Back in the day of squash matches you could have a heel that would show how good they were without having to cheat. But, the heel would cheat because that was part of his nature…he didn’t need to cheat, but took the shortcut. That would make the heel more hated.


Now with the heels wrestling non-jobbers, they have to cheat to win almost every time and it hurts the appeal of both wrestlers. The heel comes off as less talented because he has to cheat to win and the face looks stupid because he falls for the same old tricks.




YR

I always enjoyed that as a kid. Always root for them against the heel. Catch the bad guy off guard, almost get a pin fall, then squashed.

But it was cool to see some local product get to job at a TV taping too. A little exposure, maybe it helps their career, network with the big boys. I remember occasionally guys I'd see on USWA tv show show up on WWF programming. Pretty sure the only time local product get a chance now is if they need "policemen" or "security" characters for that evenings show.

 

[TellerMorrow34]

Owen Hart was a better technical wrestler. Bret admits that.Yet he was never a star.

No professional wrestler becomes a star based on his wrestling ability.

This is true 99.999% of the time. There are a very few exceptions but this is the general rule. Usually it's their ability to talk that gets them actually over and into a star.