Wrestling Icon The Ultimate Warrior Dead at 54

[TellerMorrow34]

Brock Lesnar sure did.

Part of what got Brock over was his legit wrestling ability and even more so they gave him Heyman as a mouth piece. That can't be under sold just how important Heyman, and his mic skills, were to making Brock a big time superstar.

 

[Phoenix]

Part of what got Brock over was his legit wrestling ability and even more so they gave him Heyman as a mouth piece. That can't be under sold just how important Heyman, and his mic skills, were to making Brock a big time superstar.

Kurt Angle schooled Lesnar for real in real wrestling. And by schooled, I mean beat the crap out of him. In *wrestling*.

 

[LittleBoyBlue]

The Rock's father was a fav of mine.... Rocky Johnson!

 

[Stryker44]

Kurt Angle schooled Lesnar for real in real wrestling. And by schooled, I mean beat the crap out of him. In *wrestling*.

Yeah well both were NCAA division I champions, Angle won an Olympic gold medal. Still winning an NCAA title is nothing to sneeze at.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Right, but I think that shows you, where the money was/is. WWf survived, none of those really did.

I think you've misread the lesson.

Getting into a discussion on why the WWF ended up where it did and the AWA/NWA/ECW ending up where they were would be very deep & wide.

But I quite frankly do not think it had anything to do with Hulk Hogan being champion as opposed to Ric Flair.

 

[Risen Star]

Not solely based on wrestling ability, but that was Bret's bread and butter. He got over mainly because people respected his work in the ring as an undersized guy.

He got over when they hit on the Hitman character with the Hart Foundation. Until then he was a mid-card wrestler at best. Bret had charisma. That's what makes a star in professional wrestling.

 

[Risen Star]

Brock Lesnar sure did.

No, he didn't. Neither did Kurt Angle.

 

[TheSport78]

He got over when they hit on the Hitman character with the Hart Foundation. Until then he was a mid-card wrestler at best. Bret had charisma. That's what makes a star in professional wrestling.

Actually, that's not true. Bret really didn't have a "character" as a part of the Hart Foundation. Whenever Hart and Neidhart would cut promos, most of the time it was the Anvil who showed the charisma and carried the interviews. Bret would tell you that himself. Hart has said that was so scared to cut interviews at one point, that he started WEARING the famous sunglasses because he didn't want Vince and the fans to see that he was scared and couldn't cut promos.

The Hitman has and always will be my favorite wrestler, but one thing Bret DIDN'T have was charisma or a strong personality. He was dedicated to his craft, appreciated his fans to the max, always stuck to what he believed in, and was a consummate professional in the ring.

 

[Zordon]

Actually, that's not true. Bret really didn't have a "character" as a part of the Hart Foundation. Whenever Hart and Neidhart would cut promos, most of the time it was the Anvil who showed the charisma and carried the interviews. Bret would tell you that himself. Hart has said that was so scared to cut interviews at one point, that he started WEARING the famous sunglasses because he didn't want Vince and the fans to see that he was scared and couldn't cut promos.

The Hitman has and always will be my favorite wrestler, but one thing Bret DIDN'T have was charisma or a strong personality. He was dedicated to his craft, appreciated his fans to the max, always stuck to what he believed in, and was a consummate professional in the ring.

I agree with this. You want to see someone cut a promo, look at Jake the Snake. Bret never had that swag. He had a country behind him, a cool image, and was a technically sound wrestler.

 

[CyberB0b]

I agree with this. You want to see someone cut a promo, look at Jake the Snake. Bret never had that swag. He had a country behind him, a cool image, and was a technically sound wrestler.

And a lot of grease for his perm.

 

[Zordon]

And a lot of grease for his perm.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

Bret started in the WWF as a face. I remember this because I actually watched it on WWF Cavalcade TV which was mainly WWF shows in Ontario. Bret had come over to the WWF from Calgary and first started wrestling WWF shows in the Ontario area. The same with Neidhart who debuted at MSG, but was soon wrestling Cavalcade shows. Neidhart was the cool, high intensity heel. They actually wrestled against each other early on.


Bret was over because he was young and athletic. Neidhart was over because of his intensity and power. The only problem with Bret is he was using a Calgary cowboy gimmick that was a bit lame. Neidhart was managed by Mr. Fuji and then all of the sudden, out of nowhere, Bret and Neidhart teamed up and it was over because Bret could wrestle and no longer had the Cowboy gimmick. And he was now being paired with Neidhart and it made for a nice combination of power (Neidhart) and technical wrestling (Hart). Plus, they had one of the best finishers in wrestling history. If they didn’t have that finisher, I don’t think they would have been quite as over. They also had those black and pink tights which were really cool for the time.


Neidhart was better on the mic early on. But, the fans could see his limitations in the ring and in his gimmick. Eventually they turned face and then they split up. The natural progression for wrestlers back then was to go from tag champs to then the I-C champ and then, hopefully…to main event status (whether they got the heavyweight title or not is another story). The I-C champs were usually responsible for having great singles matches. The tag champs usually wrestled before the Main Event and were there to get the crowd worked up for the main event.


Bret had a lot of great I-C matches. I really loved his feud with Bad News Brown. That’s where he started to get the nickname ‘the Excellence of Execution.’ Eventually, Bret became the Heavyweight Champion.


Why?


Because of the steroid trial.


Vince could not have roided freaks on the show anymore and had super strict, random drug testing. So they got Bret who was testing negative and because he was a smaller guy and couldn’t get over with some freakish physique, they chose him because of his in-ring skill and ability.


I don’t think anybody here thinks one solely becomes a superstar on pure wrestling ability. But, it can play a giant role in the wrestler developing into a superstar. And for Bret, it was a large part of his identity. The same for Shawn Michaels, Bob Backlund, Dory Funk, Lou Thesz and many others.






YR

 

[Stryker44]

No, he didn't. Neither did Kurt Angle.

Not sure how you define "wrestling ability" then. To me an Olympic Gold medal and winning NCAA titles are impressive achievements.

 

[Risen Star]

Not sure how you define "wrestling ability" then. To me an Olympic Gold medal and winning NCAA titles are impressive achievements.

Yeah, they're great achievements. He's a great wrestler. That's not why he became a star in professional wrestling.

 

[Risen Star]

Actually, that's not true. Bret really didn't have a "character" as a part of the Hart Foundation. Whenever Hart and Neidhart would cut promos, most of the time it was the Anvil who showed the charisma and carried the interviews. Bret would tell you that himself. Hart has said that was so scared to cut interviews at one point, that he started WEARING the famous sunglasses because he didn't want Vince and the fans to see that he was scared and couldn't cut promos.

The Hitman has and always will be my favorite wrestler, but one thing Bret DIDN'T have was charisma or a strong personality. He was dedicated to his craft, appreciated his fans to the max, always stuck to what he believed in, and was a consummate professional in the ring.

We'll agree to disagree. I think Bret had much more charisma than the Anvil and became pretty adept at working the mic.

Some of the best technical wrestlers were card fillers in professional wrestling. Bret's bothers were also great pure wrestlers. None of them reached star status because none of them had the gimmick to do it.

Your wrestling ability has nothing to do with whether you become a star there. Hulk Hogan is the biggest star that form of entertainment has ever had. He couldn't wrestle to save his life. Steve Austin couldn't either. The Rock is a football player. This isn't a sport. This isn't real wrestling. Nobody cares. It's how good of a showman you are. How much charisma you have. Also how good of an actor you are.

 

[zrinkill]

 

[TheSport78]

We'll agree to disagree. I think Bret had much more charisma than the Anvil and became pretty adept at working the mic.

Some of the best technical wrestlers were card fillers in professional wrestling. Bret's bothers were also great pure wrestlers. None of them reached star status because none of them had the gimmick to do it.

Your wrestling ability has nothing to do with whether you become a star there. Hulk Hogan is the biggest star that form of entertainment has ever had. He couldn't wrestle to save his life. Steve Austin couldn't either. The Rock is a football player. This isn't a sport. This isn't real wrestling. Nobody cares. It's how good of a showman you are. How much charisma you have. Also how good of an actor you are.

Bret really didn't have a "gimmick." The most successful people in pro wrestling had organic characters that were just amplified versions of who they were in "real life."

I'll give you Hogan. There's no doubt he wasn't the most talented wrestler, but I disagree with Austin and Rock. Before Austin suffered the neck injury at Summerslam 97', he was an excellent in-ring worker. The Rock was a third generation wrestler and he had plenty of incredible matches. Am I saying that their abilities in the ring is what solely got them over? No, of course not. It certainly didn't hurt though.

But to say that your wrestling ability has absolutely nothing to do with your success is something I definitely disagree with. Bret disagrees. HBK disagrees. Steamboat disagrees. Bruno disagrees. There are many others who didn't have the best characters but made up for it in the squared circle.

No, pro wrestling isn't a "sport," but I'd argue that these athletes go through more bumps and bruises than NFL players. There is no offseason in the WWE. I don't care if it isn't "real" wrestling. My favorite WWE wrestlers have always been the ones that showcased their talents in the ring. I always respected that the most, way more than a gimmick or an interesting storyline. That's just me though.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

Some of the best technical wrestlers were card fillers in professional wrestling. Bret's bothers were also great pure wrestlers. None of them reached star status because none of them had the gimmick to do it.

Owen was great, but the rest of the Hart brothers stunk. Bruce was average at best and was the best of the rest. Ross, Smith and Keith weren't good at all. It's why Vince had no interest in the rest of the Hart family when Calgary Stampede shut down. He was basically interested in Dynamite Kid, Davey Boy Smith, Anvil and Bret.





YR

 

[MichaelWinicki]

I'll give you Hogan. There's no doubt he wasn't the most talented wrestler, but I disagree with Austin and Rock. Before Austin suffered the neck injury at Summerslam 97', he was an excellent in-ring worker. The Rock was a third generation wrestler and he had plenty of incredible matches. Am I saying that their abilities in the ring is what solely got them over? No, of course not. It certainly didn't hurt though.

One thing about Hogan was he couldn't wrestle a lick but for a man his size he was certainly agile... Very agile, which helped compensate for his lack of wrestling skill.

Also as I and others have posted before, Hogan's best matches (and most heat) were against "wrestlers"... not the "Big John Studd's and King Kong Bundy's" of the world.

If anyone watched Austin before he entered the WWF you could see he had wrestling ability. So does "The Rock"... his father was a terrific technical wrestler.

Bottom line, before this past weekend and his untimely death, if there was a poll of wrestling fans of who was more highly rated the "Ultimate Warrior" or Bret Hart... No doubt in my mind that Hart would get far more votes.

 

[TellerMorrow34]

Kurt Angle schooled Lesnar for real in real wrestling. And by schooled, I mean beat the crap out of him. In *wrestling*.

And? I not sure how has anything to do with anything. No one said Lesnar was the greatest legit wrestler all time and I would expect that an Olympic Gold Medalist might just be a little better wrestler than just a National Champion.