Zeke is third overall in rushing

[CalPolyTechnique]

If you are looking for truly elite talent at the running back position, history shows, as I posted above, that you find those guys in the first round of the draft.

Your argument is that history has shown that running backs, more than any other position, is talent that can be found outside of the first round.

The percentage of running backs drafted in the first round being in the HOF is higher than that of QBs or defensive backs.

Your argument is incorrect.

No, your portrayal of the argument is bogus.

You're implying if you're not a "HOF talent" then you're not worth having on the team.

Your little research project is irrelevant to the discussion. History is littered with very good RBs that have played, led and won Super Bowls.

If you don't believe you can get quality, productive, worthwhile RB outside of the 1st round, you need to hit the books. That's the point.

If your immediate response is again "buh, buh, if you want a HOF RB..." Stop and wake up.

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

You can definitely find talent at any position later in the draft, but the odds go down significantly the lower in the draft you go. Its a clown show to say you automatically rule out a first round selection of a RB because you can get an Ahmad Bradshaw later on. Bradshaw was in the NFL for eight years and only started 36 games. So he is hanging his hat on a guy that his own coaches put in the starting lineup for an average of 4 games per season.

It's a clown show to draw up a strawman saying "you rule out a first round selection of RB because you can get an Ahmad Bradshaw later on."

 

[Plankton]

No, your portrayal of the argument is bogus.

You're implying if you're not a "HOF talent" then you're not worth having on the team.

Your little research project is irrelevant to the discussion. History is littered with very good RBs that have played, led and won Super Bowls.

If you don't believe you can get quality, productive, worthwhile RB outside of the 1st round, you need to hit the books. That's the point.

If your immediate response is again "buh, buh, if you want a HOF RB..." Stop and wake up.

Total deflection of the actual argument, but, in reading your posts, it's not much of a surprise.

Never was it said that you can't get a "quality, productive, worthwhile" running back outside of the first round. What I said was, that history has demonstrated that if you want an elite, or HOF type of talent, you have a far better chance of finding that guy in the first round than outside of it. It's a statistical fact, as proven by what I posted prior to the draft.

You said that history demonstrates that the running back position, more than any other position, can be found outside of the first round. The opposite is in fact true. If it isn't, provide some proof for your broad generalization.

You were proven wrong. After all, is the goal just to find a contributor, or to find a true, difference making elite talent with a first round pick?

 

[Irvin88_4life]

McFadden could've done just as well last night.

Not impressed.

The production is really good.. It doesn't take a top 5 pick to get good production. We need special for that investment.

Yep Mcfadden would have done the same thing yards and no points. Although Zeke has 2 rushing TDs already and only needs 1 more in 13 games to tie Mcfadden.

Mcfadden doesn't break tackles and he isn't jumping over anybody. Not only that Zeke is a huge reason we are number 1 in the league in 3rd down......Mcfadden can't do that either.

Zeke is special, Mcfadden isn't

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

Total deflection of the actual argument, but, in reading your posts, it's not much of a surprise.

Never was it said that you can't get a "quality, productive, worthwhile" running back outside of the first round. What I said was, that history has demonstrated that if you want an elite, or HOF type of talent, you have a far better chance of finding that guy in the first round than outside of it. It's a statistical fact, as proven by what I posted prior to the draft.

You said that history demonstrates that the running back position, more than any other position, can be found outside of the first round. The opposite is in fact true. If it isn't, provide some proof for your broad generalization.

You were proven wrong. After all, is the goal just to find a contributor, or to find a true, difference making elite talent with a first round pick?

There's no hope for you.

You waded into the conversation offering your (I'm sure sloppy) research assignment on HOF RBs and their position.

Fantastic.

That has ZERO to do with the discussion.

And you're full of crap. Plain and simple. I absolutely have been making the argument about finding quality talent outside of the 1st round all through this thread and others.

Your contribution has and continues to be "buh, if you want a HOF RB..." which would be comical if it wasn't so incessantly stupid and ill-fitting as it relates to the discussion.

 

[haleyrules]

Yep Mcfadden would have done the same thing yards and no points. Although Zeke has 2 rushing TDs already and only needs 1 more in 13 games to tie Mcfadden.

Mcfadden doesn't break tackles and he isn't jumping over anybody. Not only that Zeke is a huge reason we are number 1 in the league in 3rd down......Mcfadden can't do that either.

Zeke is special, Mcfadden isn't

Amen.

 

[haleyrules]

I'm pretty sure there are few on here that would find something to ***** about if we went 19-0 and added the 6th Lombardi.

lol. I promise l won't.

 

[Verdict]

The people *****ing about being able to get a "good enough" running back later on in the draft and using that #4 overall pick in a defender are many of the same crowd who said "anyone" could run behind this line. We saw what that got us last year..... Quite a few yards when it didn't count, but not ONE when we had to get the one yard.

Baltimore would have traded up from #6 overall to #4 overall and given up a 4th rounder for the privilege of drafting Zeke, and they are widely viewed as an awesome drafting team with a run dominant identity. That should tell you quite a bit about the pick, and all of it is good!

 

[TheRomoSexual]

The people *****ing about being able to get a "good enough" running back later on in the draft and using that #4 overall pick in a defender are many of the same crowd who said "anyone" could run behind this line. We saw what that got us last year..... Quite a few yards when it didn't count, but not ONE when we had to get the one yard.

Baltimore would have traded up from #6 overall to #4 overall and given up a 4th rounder for the privilege of drafting Zeke, and they are widely viewed as an awesome drafting team with a run dominant identity. That should tell you quite a bit about the pick, and all of it is good!

This is a really good point. Last year, we were 27th in 3rd down conversion (34.6%). This year, we are first at 52.5%. Zeke is a huge part of that massive improvement. But hey, don't tell CalPoly -- he only believes in stats that support his argument.

 

[Sydla]

The people *****ing about being able to get a "good enough" running back later on in the draft and using that #4 overall pick in a defender are many of the same crowd who said "anyone" could run behind this line. We saw what that got us last year..... Quite a few yards when it didn't count, but not ONE when we had to get the one yard.

Baltimore would have traded up from #6 overall to #4 overall and given up a 4th rounder for the privilege of drafting Zeke, and they are widely viewed as an awesome drafting team with a run dominant identity. That should tell you quite a bit about the pick, and all of it is good!

Your post has some fallacies.

One, it's been shown that the Cowboys actually weren't bad in short yardage situations last year. They sucked on offense last year because they had crappy QBs. It was that simple. Not because they lacked an elite TB.

Two, it's mostly myth at this point that the Ravens would have taken Elliott. That was floated here and by Jerry to justify the pick but reports in Baltimore suggested that they didn't want Zeke. A couple of their beat reporters refuted the Cowboys/Jones comments saying the Ravens wanted Ramsey at 4 knowing that even if the Cowboys passed on him, the Jags would likely have taken him at 5.

 

[Sydla]

This is a really good point. Last year, we were 27th in 3rd down conversion (34.6%). This year, we are first at 52.5%. Zeke is a huge part of that massive improvement. But hey, don't tell CalPoly -- he only believes in stats that support his argument.

You should probably look at stats yourself before you start slamming other fans.

For one, let's start with your 3rd down conversion rate. For one, it's better this year largely because of QB play, not who the TB is.

And let's dig even a bit further. It's being opined that Elliott has had a massive improvement in our short yardage running as well. Except he hasn't.

In 2016, we've had 8 third or fourth down situations where we ran the ball where we have had to run for 1-2 or yards for a first. In those 8 attempts, we've made first downs 5 of those times. That's a success rate of 62.5%.

In 2015, the Cowboys had 24 third or fourth down and 1-2 to go situations. Of those 24 rushing attempts, 16 resulted in first downs. That's a success rate of 66.7%.

So actually, we were slightly better at short yardage situations running the ball in 2015 than thus far through 2016.

 

[Verdict]

Your post has some fallacies.

One, it's been shown that the Cowboys actually weren't bad in short yardage situations last year. They sucked on offense last year because they had crappy QBs. It was that simple. Not because they lacked an elite TB.

Two, it's mostly myth at this point that the Ravens would have taken Elliott. That was floated here and by Jerry to justify the pick but reports in Baltimore suggested that they didn't want Zeke. A couple of their beat reporters refuted the Cowboys/Jones comments saying the Ravens wanted Ramsey at 4 knowing that even if the Cowboys passed on him, the Jags would likely have taken him at 5.

We get it. You don't like the pick.

 

[Sydla]

We get it. You don't like the pick.

I didn't like the pick. Not because Elliott isn't a fine player. He is. We just had other more important issues facing the team.

I am also just pointing out that you are crafting an argument using "facts" that aren't true.

 

[Verdict]

You should probably look at stats yourself before you start slamming other fans.

For one, let's start with your 3rd down conversion rate. For one, it's better this year largely because of QB play, not who the TB is.

And let's dig even a bit further. It's being opined that Elliott has had a massive improvement in our short yardage running as well. Except he hasn't.

In 2016, we've had 8 third or fourth down situations where we ran the ball where we have had to run for 1-2 or yards for a first. In those 8 attempts, we've made first downs 5 of those times. That's a success rate of 62.5%.

In 2015, the Cowboys had 24 third or fourth down and 1-2 to go situations. Of those 24 rushing attempts, 16 resulted in first downs. That's a success rate of 66.7%.

So actually, we were slightly better at short yardage situations running the ball in 2015 than thus far through 2016.

I actually think McFadden was a better back than many did, but if you can't see that Zeke is a better back than McFadden using the eyeball test, then I really don't know what to say to you because from my point of view, you really are oblivious to reality.

 

[TheRomoSexual]

You should probably look at stats yourself before you start slamming other fans.

For one, let's start with your 3rd down conversion rate. For one, it's better this year largely because of QB play, not who the TB is.

And let's dig even a bit further. It's being opined that Elliott has had a massive improvement in our short yardage running as well. Except he hasn't.

In 2016, we've had 8 third or fourth down situations where we ran the ball where we have had to run for 1-2 or yards for a first. In those 8 attempts, we've made first downs 5 of those times. That's a success rate of 62.5%.

In 2015, the Cowboys had 24 third or fourth down and 1-2 to go situations. Of those 24 rushing attempts, 16 resulted in first downs. That's a success rate of 66.7%.

So actually, we were slightly better at short yardage situations running the ball in 2015 than thus far through 2016.

Care to list a cite for any of this?

 

[Sydla]

I actually think McFadden was a better back than many did, but if you can't see that Zeke is a better back than McFadden using the eyeball test, then I really don't know what to say to you because from my point of view, you really are oblivious to reality.

So basically your arguments are either erroneous facts or strawman arguments. Let's start with the strawman argument. I think Elliott will very likely be a better back than McFadden (unless he gets hurt or something). I've never suggested otherwise. He's a more talented TB at this point in their careers, obviously. But I weigh how much better he could be against the overall team construction and what would have made the Cowboys a better team. A really good TB or trying to get more defensive help?

If you want to have a debate and try to say things like we couldn't get one yard back in 2015 when we had to but the stats suggest that at least to date, we were better at getting 1-2 yards running the ball in 2015 than in 2016, prepare yourself to have people disagree with you.

 

[Sydla]

Care to list a cite for any of this?

Here you go. Here are the Cowboys offensive splits for 2015 and 2016. You'll have to maneuver around the page yourself to find the data, but the 3rd and 4th down and 1-2 go data is about halfway down the page.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/team/splits/_/name/dal/type/rushing

In 2015, the Cowboys also averaged 3.5 yards per carry on 3rd or 4th down and 1-2 to go. This year, they are averaging 2.8 yards per carry in similar situations.

 

[Verdict]

I didn't like the pick. Not because Elliott isn't a fine player. He is. We just had other more important issues facing the team.

I am also just pointing out that you are crafting an argument using "facts" that aren't true.

The issues the team is facing are, to some degree, irrelevant. You don't get to draft a mythical player when you are on the clock. You have to draft a player who actually exists. There wasn't a player at #4 overall on defense who carried the grade that Zeke did. You don't reach for a player, especially at #4 overall. If Jerry and Co. believed that he could trade back and still get Zeke, he would have, much like he did with Fredbeard and Roy Williams the safety. Those were both successful trade backs.

 

[Verdict]

lol. I promise l won't.

There is no doubt in my mind that you are 100 percent right on that. Their cries would become increasingly louder until we lost a game at which time they would say "see, I told you we suck".

I don't understand why some of these people here are Cowboys fans. It really doesn't make any sense to call yourself a fan and then ***** about everything your team does, even the great decisions. It is mind boggling.

 

[Sydla]

The issues the team is facing are, to some degree, irrelevant. You don't get to draft a mythical player when you are on the clock. You have to draft a player who actually exists. There wasn't a player at #4 overall on defense who carried the grade that Zeke did. You don't reach for a player, especially at #4 overall. If Jerry and Co. believed that he could trade back and still get Zeke, he would have, much like he did with Fredbeard and Roy Williams the safety. Those were both successful trade backs.

Again, other thing you are trying to introduce as "fact".

If you recall, it was widely reported that they were split on whether to take Ramsey or Elliott. The coaches, leaned Elliott but the scouts leaned Ramsey.

If they had taken Ramsey at 4, it would not have been a reach. The Cowboys had Ramsey graded high as well.