The Elite QB Farce

Aviano90

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Your kind need to hold to anything you can. You can have that it means nothing to me but let's talk football not your insecurities over my life you don't believe ok.
Ok let’s talk football. Since you don’t want to sign Dak, who do you want to allocate that money to, which QB do you want to realistically sign or draft, and what will be your expectation of the team next year for your wishes to be considered a success on the football field?
 

Diehardblues

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You act as if elite QB's are plentiful, just pick one.

Having Prescott is like having a wife that is a 7. But you want a 9. So, you dump the 7 to find a 9 but discover there aren't as many as your thought and end up with a 5, watching reality TV and finding new hobbies.

Teams saw Goff and Wentz as possible elite's, just as teams will do so with Burrow, Tua and Herbert in this draft but it is all risk. The difference is the teams that will most likely take those QB's do not have a Prescott that they know about.

The one thing I will completely agree with is they should have been taking more QB's on the 2nd day to give themselves some options. They don't have much leverage with Prescott and his agent. GB got Rodgers to get rid of Favre and KC did the same with Mahomes and Smith.

The problem with team strategy is they wait until they need something and have to pay more for it.
I’m just saying with a less than Elite QB we are lessening our opportunities. There’s a reason these teams with Elite QB are consistently in contention.

This was first AFC champ game since 2002 that didn’t have Brady, Ben or Manning it.

Rodgers has been in 5 in last 10 years or so. Brees and Saints always in the convo. Much like Wilson and Seattle is. These others teams need so much more to get there.

I just want an easier road for us to be in contention consistently . And I think an Elite QB is the ticket. That doesn’t mean I have the answer in how we acquire other than the draft. We haven’t even tried.

I’m basically just making a broad analysis not specifically for our team. We obviously see there are other ways to get it done but the road is tougher and the windows are t open as long.

I think if I was a GM I’d continue drafting a QB in early rounds until I was certain a hit. You could always trade them later. Or at least keep churning out the average ones like we do other positions in draft we feel we can more easily draft than pay. The QB position shouldn't be exempt.

I’m not convinced we couldn’t draft someone that couldn’t replace Dak now. Without committing the Cap and next 4-6 years. It would be different if we were making deep runs in playoffs with him. But we’ve missed playoffs twice with him already.

No guarantee this is a playoff team this year. What are we really risking ? Shoot what we saved in Cap we could sign a proven backup for insurance in case our new Rookie isn’t ready.
 

ABQCOWBOY

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I don't disagree with you. But short of trying to speak for someone else, I'll just give my useless opinion. I think all the dude is saying is that when you have a really good QB you're in the mix far more often than not. Of course poor coaching can throw all of this out the window. But if you have a good coaching staff and a really good quarterback, you're probably going to be contenders far more often than not.

This is exactly right IMO. I mean, if you look at the "Dynasty" teams since the modern era, two things are common. One, Great Coaching. Two, Great QB play.

Packers - Lombardi/Starr
Raiders - Madden/Stabler
Miami - Shula/Grease
Steelers - Knoll/Bradshaw
Cowboys - Landry/Staubach
49ers - Walsh/Montana/Young
Cowboys - Johnson/Aikman
Pats - Belichick/Brady

Now, certainly some of these things had other things as well but HOF Caliber Coach and HOF Caliber QB are common to all.
 

nate dizzle

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And could be for an era pending his health.

Its why in Cap era an Elite QB is most proven method of staying a consistent contender year after year despite the supporting cast and roster churns.
How many of the Elites in the past 20 years have won or even been to more than 1 super bowl?

I have Brady, Warner, and Wilson.

Brady is the GOAT. He also played his entire career for hands down the greatest coach in NFL history in what has been the most perfect marriage of offensive scheme and QB talents in NFL history. They've also had a defense that finished in the top 10, 16 times in the past 20 years (8 times a top 5). So that's helped.

Warner had the luxury of playing with a HOF running back and 2 eventual HOF WR's for the Rams in '99 and '01. He had a the 5th ranked rushing and 6th ranked defense in '99, and the 5th ranked rushing and 3rd ranked defense in 2001) and then pairing up with Fitz and Boldin in AZ for a magical season before retiring the following season.

Wilson rode a great defense and running game to both super bowls in 2014 and 2015. (1st and 2nd in defense, 1st and 3rd in rushing).

So out of the "elites" 3 have gone to more than 1 super bowl in the past 20 years, and aside from Brady they've enjoyed a top 5 rushing attack and defense.
 

CouchCoach

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Right

At some point JimmyG will need to carry them much like Wilson is being asked to now for Seattle.

The Cap era reformulated how teams are built and maintained. It’s raised the importance of the QB talent level because you have to pay them. They basically turn out to be the only one you protect into their Third contracts.
Wilson had to carry SEA because they lost all their RB's.

Shanahan won't let the RB well run dry, just like his father.

All comes down to how dependent does a team want to be on their QB and do they have one that is OK with 9 pass attempts, if they win.

The bill hasn't come due on Mahomes, Jackson and Watson yet but it will and then?

Belichick saw what was coming and tried to get out in front of it and was lucky Brady decided to compromise to stay in NE. Garoppolo was exactly what he wanted, QB to execute his O and not break the bank and he got Brady to do just that.

Big Mike has one big ? with me, can he do it without that elite QB? That's all he's ever had.
 

HungryLion

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How many of the Elites in the past 20 years have won or even been to more than 1 super bowl?

I have Brady, Warner, and Wilson.

Brady is the GOAT. He also played his entire career for hands down the greatest coach in NFL history in what has been the most perfect marriage of offensive scheme and QB talents in NFL history. They've also had a defense that finished in the top 10, 16 times in the past 20 years (8 times a top 5). So that's helped.

Warner had the luxury of playing with a HOF running back and 2 eventual HOF WR's for the Rams in '99 and '01. He had a the 5th ranked rushing and 6th ranked defense in '99, and the 5th ranked rushing and 3rd ranked defense in 2001) and then pairing up with Fitz and Boldin in AZ for a magical season before retiring the following season.

Wilson rode a great defense and running game to both super bowls in 2014 and 2015. (1st and 2nd in defense, 1st and 3rd in rushing).

So out of the "elites" 3 have gone to more than 1 super bowl in the past 20 years, and aside from Brady they've enjoyed a top 5 rushing attack and defense.

Great post.

it takes a great team to win a Super Bowl. Even the best quarterbacks don’t win superbowls without a ton of help around them. The QB who “carries a team” on their back to a championship is a fallacy that doesn’t exist.


Even Brady. I believe he developed into the best QB of all time.

that being said. He was NOT the best QB in the league when he won the first couple of
Super Bowls.

Those teams had incredible defenses and special
Teams play. Their defense and special teams were forcing turnovers and scoring points and putting the offense into great field position.

Brady to his credit just had to make timely plays when it counted. Which he excelled at from
The start. But Brady wasn’t dropping back and chucking the ball all over the field early in his career. But he didn’t need to either.
 
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Diehardblues

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Wilson had to carry SEA because they lost all their RB's.

Shanahan won't let the RB well run dry, just like his father.

All comes down to how dependent does a team want to be on their QB and do they have one that is OK with 9 pass attempts, if they win.

The bill hasn't come due on Mahomes, Jackson and Watson yet but it will and then?

Belichick saw what was coming and tried to get out in front of it and was lucky Brady decided to compromise to stay in NE. Garoppolo was exactly what he wanted, QB to execute his O and not break the bank and he got Brady to do just that.

Big Mike has one big ? with me, can he do it without that elite QB? That's all he's ever had.
And why I’d Tag Dak. Let’s see if it’s the same with Mike. If it is time to move on. Draft someone Mike can develop.

Or are we already All In on Dak and that’s why Mike was hired. To make the most of Dak for better or worse?
 

Philmonroe

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Ok let’s talk football. Since you don’t want to sign Dak, who do you want to allocate that money to, which QB do you want to realistically sign or draft, and what will be your expectation of the team next year for your wishes to be considered a success on the football field?
I think the Cowboys should try to move up in the draft this year and take one of the blue chip qb's. If that QB fails he fails but obviously I don't think Dak is good enough to stop you from doing that similar to how KC did Alex Smith who I think Dak is on level with. I don't have an exact name because unless you're drafting first you don't have an exact name. As far as FA qb's I haven't even looked to be honest because my thing is moreso trying to get a 1st rd rookie. We were 8-8 this year for all of Daks stats however either of us want to see it so some thing close to that will be ok. I'm also not naive to think any ole rookie QB can have a season like Dak did HS rookie year. 6-10 or better would be ok for me with a 1st rd QB as long as he was showing signs that with offseason improvement he could be eventually have a higher ceiling than Dak.
 

Aviano90

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I think the Cowboys should try to move up in the draft this year and take one of the blue chip qb's. If that QB fails he fails but obviously I don't think Dak is good enough to stop you from doing that similar to how KC did Alex Smith who I think Dak is on level with. I don't have an exact name because unless you're drafting first you don't have an exact name. As far as FA qb's I haven't even looked to be honest because my thing is moreso trying to get a 1st rd rookie. We were 8-8 this year for all of Daks stats however either of us want to see it so some thing close to that will be ok. I'm also not naive to think any ole rookie QB can have a season like Dak did HS rookie year. 6-10 or better would be ok for me with a 1st rd QB as long as he was showing signs that with offseason improvement he could be eventually have a higher ceiling than Dak.
Well I think the only good QB coming out of this draft will be Burrow. Tua, Herbert will be average at best and Fromm will be a bust, IMO. We won’t have enough draft capital to get Burrow so if we get another mediocre QB using our first round draft pick the only positive I see is that it will just save us from paying Dak but the team won’t see any improvement.
 

Philmonroe

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Well I think the only good QB coming out of this draft will be Burrow. Tua, Herbert will be average at best and Fromm will be a bust, IMO. We won’t have enough draft capital to get Burrow so if we get another mediocre QB using our first round draft pick the only positive I see is that it will just save us from paying Dak but the team won’t see any improvement.
I'll take that positive of saving money on Dak because if he can't win with average nfl talent he doesn't deserve top money. Everybody needs help but when Dak just had average nfl talent outside it looked awful. Imagine that season without Amari for the whole season. You don't have to win it all either (,that would be optimal though) to see who can do what with less. RW in Seattle with no real killers at WR consistently has Seattle in playoff contention. Do you really think Dak would have us consistently in contention with Seattle's pass catchers? Maybe you do but I truly don't. We can use that saved money on better defensive FA.
 

Aviano90

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I'll take that positive of saving money on Dak because if he can't win with average nfl talent he doesn't deserve top money. Everybody needs help but when Dak just had average nfl talent outside it looked awful. Imagine that season without Amari for the whole season. You don't have to win it all either (,that would be optimal though) to see who can do what with less. RW in Seattle with no real killers at WR consistently has Seattle in playoff contention. Do you really think Dak would have us consistently in contention with Seattle's pass catchers? Maybe you do but I truly don't. We can use that saved money on better defensive FA.
No, but I also realize his $1 million dollar salary allowed cap flexibility to have a team that could be kept In contention with Dak. And while he may only be an average QB, he was producing at an above average level as a result of having a better team. This is in contrast to previously having a high dollar QB and sorrier team. The end results were the same.
 

DenCWBY

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Great post.

it takes a great team to win a Super Bowl. Even the best quarterbacks don’t win superbowls without a ton of help around them. The QB who “carries a team” on their back to a championship is a fallacy that doesn’t exist.


Even Brady. I believe he developed into the best QB of all time.

that being said. He was NOT the best QB in the league when he won the first couple of
Super Bowls.

Those teams had incredible defenses and special
Teams play. Their defense and special teams were forcing turnovers and scoring points and putting the offense into great field position.

Brady to his credit just had to make timely plays when it counted. Which he excelled at from
The start. But Brady wasn’t dropping back and chucking the ball all over the field early in his career. But he didn’t need to either.
:hammer:
 

nate dizzle

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Great post.

it takes a great team to win a Super Bowl. Even the best quarterbacks don’t win superbowls without a ton of help around them. The QB who “carries a team” on their back to a championship is a fallacy that doesn’t exist.


Even Brady. I believe he developed into the best QB of all time.

that being said. He was NOT the best QB in the league when he won the first couple of
Super Bowls.

Those teams had incredible defenses and special
Teams play. Their defense and special teams were forcing turnovers and scoring points and putting the offense into great field position.

Brady to his credit just had to make timely plays when it counted. Which he excelled at from
The start. But Brady wasn’t dropping back and chucking the ball all over the field early in his career. But he didn’t need to either.

Agreed.

Also, the Niners are going to beat KC and Mahomes with their 2nd ranked defense and 2nd ranked rushing attack. You heard it here first.
 

Diehardblues

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How many of the Elites in the past 20 years have won or even been to more than 1 super bowl?

I have Brady, Warner, and Wilson.

Brady is the GOAT. He also played his entire career for hands down the greatest coach in NFL history in what has been the most perfect marriage of offensive scheme and QB talents in NFL history. They've also had a defense that finished in the top 10, 16 times in the past 20 years (8 times a top 5). So that's helped.

Warner had the luxury of playing with a HOF running back and 2 eventual HOF WR's for the Rams in '99 and '01. He had a the 5th ranked rushing and 6th ranked defense in '99, and the 5th ranked rushing and 3rd ranked defense in 2001) and then pairing up with Fitz and Boldin in AZ for a magical season before retiring the following season.

Wilson rode a great defense and running game to both super bowls in 2014 and 2015. (1st and 2nd in defense, 1st and 3rd in rushing).

So out of the "elites" 3 have gone to more than 1 super bowl in the past 20 years, and aside from Brady they've enjoyed a top 5 rushing attack and defense.
My argument for Elite QB’s isn’t just about winning championships. It’s about an easier road to stay in contention year after year despite the supporting cast.
 

Irvin88_4life

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I don't give a flip what romo said the on the field play said differently and unless you're going to say you believe everything anyone says spare me that bs. Like I also said he improved on little things here and there so whats your point? I never said they stop improving completely. I said the major improvements. You people have to get out of your feelings. Again I know your type like to overuse hate but what do I "hate" about Dak besides he's average? No I don't think Dak improved much. He's who he has always been an inaccurate dude that can play good sometimes. What changed?
Dak greatly improved from year 3 to year 4. What makes you a hater is the fact you can't admit it. Even some of his biggest critics stated his mechanics got better, his accuracy was improved including the deep ball where he lead the league in over 20 plus yard TDs, footwork...... the list goes on and on and on. You're blind and have an agenda if you can't see it
 

Diehardblues

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Agreed.

Also, the Niners are going to beat KC and Mahomes with their 2nd ranked defense and 2nd ranked rushing attack. You heard it here first.
I wouldn’t be surprised .

But I bet the Chiefs with Mahomes will be a contender for the next 10+ years if he stays healthy despite his supporting cast.

Jimmy G without the defense and running game won’t be. Unless he becomes Elite.
 

Irvin88_4life

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In 2014, Rodgers was teaching Romo how to use his hips and throw at the freaking Pro Bowl. I bet Rodgers was wondering what the hell was up with the guy. And that was after Romo’s best season thanks to Murray taking the load off his shoulders.
Yep, but you can't tell some of these Idiots anything
 

Irvin88_4life

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I have one that doesn’t include Romo
Drew Brees

“lacks accuracy and touch on his long throws”

“Drew Brees
did not throw well at the combine, but that was not the biggest problem he had in Indianapolis. His stock took a major hit because he initially was measured at a shade under 6'0". That was one thing that most of the scouts were most interested in about Brees.”

he got a combine report grade of “F”
http://nflcombineresults.com/playerpage.php?i=5788

“Drew is a more highly rated prospect, but he is very similar to Denver Broncos quarterback Brian Griese when he came out of Michigan.”

When it comes to comparing Dak and Brees after year four, Dak makes Brees actually look like Brian Griese

Brees was not good in San Diego Check the link below.

Dak’s performance through year four blows Brees out of the water and it’s not even close

Brees made the Pro Bowl in year four
Dak has already been in two

Brees won his first playoff game in year six
Dak won his first in year three

here is a stats comparison
http://pfref.com/tiny/85OTl

Do I think Dak will ever be the QB that Brees became? Hell no. That would be insane. I’d be happy if Dak could improve on his reads, game management and footwork. If he does that I think he could be a good QB and more than good enough to be part of a championship team.

But!!! This talk about Dak having already reached his peak and his scouting report showing that he has insurmountable problems that will doom him to mediocrity are straw man arguments that don’t make much sense in the real world

I’m using Brees as an example of how wrong scouts can be and how wrong it is to look at a QB after year four and assume that they will never get better.

Brees proved that and not even by a little bit.
Great example but those Dak haters don't like facts so they still come up with some bs to discredit this
 

G2

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I wouldn’t be surprised .

But I bet the Chiefs with Mahomes will be a contender for the next 10+ years if he stays healthy despite his supporting cast.

Jimmy G without the defense and running game won’t be. Unless he becomes Elite.
You're fooling yourself if you think Mahomes doesn't have surrounding help. The kid is on another level, but he's got some very great weapons, a solid defense and a solid staff.
The cool thing is we get to see perhaps the best offense vs the best defense in the SB.
 
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