2 Questions For the Zoners Who Want to Let Moore Go

[Captain-Crash]

Well your memory sucks but aside from that you seem ok.

yeah, wink, wink, my memory was wrong.

 

[TexasBoys2288]

The biggest misunderstanding about our offense is overrating statistical rankings. In the playoffs, defenses are WAY better. It’s nice to have an offense that racks up yards. But who cares about that when you can’t do it in the playoffs?
(My answers in italicized bold)
1. Given Dak's liabilities, what exactly do you think a new OC will realistically accomplish that Moore hasn't already accomplished? A new OC could do two very important things to help:

• 1. Design the offense around Dak’s strengths, not his weaknesses. Moore’s offense is a spin-off of the offense designed for Tony Romo by Scott Linehan back around 2014.
• 2. This offense needs a ton of modernizing. This offense runs a ton of high school level passing routes. It’s why defenses laugh at how easy it is to cover. Dak could greatly benefit from a scheme with update route trees that scheme people open more than rely on the receiver to beat his man.

2. Given how profilic Moore's offenses have been compared to those of other OC's, do you realize it's likely that any offense under a new OC will be worse not better?

• I disagree. In fact, hiring an OC with a more modern approach to the passing game could make things way easier for the passing game. Look at what the rams have done for years for their QBs and receivers. They have some very cleverly schemed routes that make it easier for everyone.
• Andy Reid’s offense is designed to scheme plays that put instant pressure on the defense in coverage by using lots of motion, movement and rolling the pocket. Dak isn’t Mahomes of course but he does pass well while on the move. Moving Dak around will help him a ton.

BOTTOM LINE: Forget the regular season stats. Look at the playoff stats the last 6 playoff games we’ve been in. That will tell us a ton about how outdated this offense is.

Bada Bing

 

[fairviewfarmer]

In other words, Scott Linehan

One of Daks earlier victims. Chased out of town for "holding dak back"

Touche!

 

[RustyBourneHorse]

Like some many on here love to point out when defenders talk about Dak's limitations. Just like they mentioned the 49ers defender who said that Dak had a problem with Zone defense. When plenty of defenders have talked about how predictable the Cowboys offense was or how they knew that was coming. Which is on the play calling. I'm open to the Cowboys drafting a new QB, but does anyone believe that the new QB could thrive under Kellen Moore's current play calling style? Or with Kellen Moore not being able to scheme weapons open and constantly calling curl routes.

If Kellen Moore is fired and no one else picks him up, than that would mean other teams seeing how the issue isn't solely with Dak, but because they see limitations to his play calling or ability to learn more as an OC. If he does get another chance with another team, then we would be able to see whether or not the theory of how his play calling is all on Dak is true or now. Oe if he would have the ability to call and develop different plays with a new QB and offense.

Exactly

 

[Bob-Lillys-War]

lets take a look at kellen's amazing offense in the post season ...


oops ...

"2. Given how profilic Moore's offenses have been" ... hahahaha the OP is trolling .

 

[Pevansjr]

1. The Cowboys need a play caller who is better with situational football and giving different looks that fool the defense than Moore. The passing game mostly contained simple route trees and put too many receivers out on long developing routes in medium yardage situations. The running game needs to be emphasized so as to set up the passing attack (helps Dak). RBs getting short passes in space (helps Dak) are a dangerous element to an offense and will predicate how a defense runs coverage.

2. How much of Moore's offense success has been due to the talent on the field?

Wait. I thought we had nothing but hot garbage jags other than Dak on offense. Or is it Dak sucks and everyone else is good. Or It's Moore that sucks, Dak is amazing and the others are jags but only on the second Tuesday of the month? Aww hell, I give up it's too much to keep up with.

 

[nalam]

For all the people who want to ditch Moore, help me understand. If you drop the Andy Dalton year, the last 3 years the Cowboys have been 4th,
1st and 6th in scoring. For those 3 years combined, the Cowboys are 2nd in scoring only behind KC.
The OC accomplished this with a QB that everyone but those completely in the tank for Dak agrees has fatal limitations, torpedoed
our post season this year with turnovers, and ended our post season last year with the stupidest in game decision I've seen since.....well ever.

Seems like the obvious problem is the QB not the OC, and if anything this OC has over achieved.

My 2 questions to the legion of Zoners who want to ditch Moore are:
1. Given Dak's liabilities, what exactly do you think a new OC will realistically accomplish that Moore hasn't already accomplished?
2. Given how profilic Moore's offenses have been compared to those of other OC's, do you realize it's likely that any offense under a new OC
will be worse not better?

My answers ,
1. Dont know for sure , but atleast with a real experienced or NFL practiced OC, we will have better situational awareness and wont walk away from what is working in most inopportune moments. Also please check out Warner analysis and QB school videos , KMs penchant for calling curl routes is well known and good defenses use that tendency against us , this probably is one of the reasons for interceptions. Ceedee is good but has weakness in routes where he need to cross the face of safety in the middle and that has lead to interceptions ( multiple) but still KM called the same play in the 2nd&2 play in SF game.
2. prolific offenses could be due to KMs play calling and also due to offensive personnel we have , it all starts with OL. When run game also clicks ,we can go after bad defenses , but adjusting to good defenses we havent seen in KM lead offenses , when things dont work , he gets clueless and press more ( go pass pass and lose the game ), may be a less prolific offense but scores enough points to win and as well give the defense rest when it needs that , will be better.

 

[Beast_from_East]

I’m not saying there is definitely more that can be squeezed out of the qb. But we don’t know without trying. What we do know is we are stuck w the qb. So your only hope is to change the OC. We know it doesn’t work as is. We know Dak isn’t going anywhere. So there is nothing left but to change OC. It’s not very hard to figure out.

Exactly..................I am not sure why other posters seem to be struggling with this concept..............maybe I can repeat it simpler and slower, it aint that hard to understand.

Dak + Moore = SUCK

Dak not leaving = contract too big

Only option left = replace Moore

 

[Prossman]

or is it pea brain dak will not just drive the bus, he thinks he's better than he is?

He is trying to play hero ball, He hears he is not Mahomes and now is trying to do things he can't. Dak is better than a bus driver but not elite. KM doesn't have answers when top defenses have him figured. He gets cute or just plain stupid,. We still need to fix our LG spot. Biadass was a pleasant surprise, but still too much pressure up the middle. That causes Dak mechanics to go down the toilet and he can't hit the broad side of a barn.I don't think Dak listens to his qb coach or KM, he doesn't respect them, when it comes to criticism of his play. Someone needs to be brought in to hold him accountable.

 

[noshame]

For all the people who want to ditch Moore, help me understand. If you drop the Andy Dalton year, the last 3 years the Cowboys have been 4th,
1st and 6th in scoring. For those 3 years combined, the Cowboys are 2nd in scoring only behind KC.
The OC accomplished this with a QB that everyone but those completely in the tank for Dak agrees has fatal limitations, torpedoed
our post season this year with turnovers, and ended our post season last year with the stupidest in game decision I've seen since.....well ever.

Seems like the obvious problem is the QB not the OC, and if anything this OC has over achieved.

My 2 questions to the legion of Zoners who want to ditch Moore are:
1. Given Dak's liabilities, what exactly do you think a new OC will realistically accomplish that Moore hasn't already accomplished?
2. Given how profilic Moore's offenses have been compared to those of other OC's, do you realize it's likely that any offense under a new OC
will be worse not better?

Keep Kellen and bring in some serious QB competition through the draft. If there's a skilled guy there in the 1st or 2nd go get him.
Tired of Jerry's "special " hidden gems.

 

[Birch_Wood]

The biggest misunderstanding about our offense is overrating statistical rankings. In the playoffs, defenses are WAY better. It’s nice to have an offense that racks up yards. But who cares about that when you can’t do it in the playoffs?
(My answers in italicized bold)
1. Given Dak's liabilities, what exactly do you think a new OC will realistically accomplish that Moore hasn't already accomplished? A new OC could do two very important things to help:

• 1. Design the offense around Dak’s strengths, not his weaknesses. Moore’s offense is a spin-off of the offense designed for Tony Romo by Scott Linehan back around 2014.
• 2. This offense needs a ton of modernizing. This offense runs a ton of high school level passing routes. It’s why defenses laugh at how easy it is to cover. Dak could greatly benefit from a scheme with update route trees that scheme people open more than rely on the receiver to beat his man.

2. Given how profilic Moore's offenses have been compared to those of other OC's, do you realize it's likely that any offense under a new OC will be worse not better?

• I disagree. In fact, hiring an OC with a more modern approach to the passing game could make things way easier for the passing game. Look at what the rams have done for years for their QBs and receivers. They have some very cleverly schemed routes that make it easier for everyone.
• Andy Reid’s offense is designed to scheme plays that put instant pressure on the defense in coverage by using lots of motion, movement and rolling the pocket. Dak isn’t Mahomes of course but he does pass well while on the move. Moving Dak around will help him a ton.

BOTTOM LINE: Forget the regular season stats. Look at the playoff stats the last 6 playoff games we’ve been in. That will tell us a ton about how outdated this offense is.

Yes, but isn't this used to compare Dak to top rated QB's, "

overrating statistical rankings.

 

[Fastpitch Dad]

Counterpoint, I'm talking about using what he comes from and the fact that we've been running, effectively, the same offense for 15 years. Mike's background is from the Schottenheimer/Bill Walsh systems. I'm wanting an OC from that like Mike McCoy. Even if we bin McCarthy next year, I think a new OC would help, and McCoy would be a great fit here.

I agree with you, I have wanted Mike to call the plays since he was hired.

In my opinion, it was one of his strengths in GB, and we choose not to use it. Plain stupid to me.

What's it hurt to try? He's way more proven than Moore.

 

[Captain-Crash]

He is trying to play hero ball, He hears he is not Mahomes and now is trying to do things he can't. Dak is better than a bus driver but not elite. KM doesn't have answers when top defenses have him figured. He gets cute or just plain stupid,. We still need to fix our LG spot. Biadass was a pleasant surprise, but still too much pressure up the middle. That causes Dak mechanics to go down the toilet and he can't hit the broad side of a barn.I don't think Dak listens to his qb coach or KM, he doesn't respect them, when it comes to criticism of his play. Someone needs to be brought in to hold him accountable.

 

[BoyzBlaster]

My answers ,
1. Dont know for sure , but atleast with a real experienced or NFL practiced OC, we will have better situational awareness and wont walk away from what is working in most inopportune moments. Also please check out Warner analysis and QB school videos , KMs penchant for calling curl routes is well known and good defenses use that tendency against us , this probably is one of the reasons for interceptions. Ceedee is good but has weakness in routes where he need to cross the face of safety in the middle and that has lead to interceptions ( multiple) but still KM called the same play in the 2nd&2 play in SF game.
2. prolific offenses could be due to KMs play calling and also due to offensive personnel we have , it all starts with OL. When run game also clicks ,we can go after bad defenses , but adjusting to good defenses we havent seen in KM lead offenses , when things dont work , he gets clueless and press more ( go pass pass and lose the game ), may be a less prolific offense but scores enough points to win and as well give the defense rest when it needs that , will be better.

Fair points but I don't agree. Assuming you correct about curl routes, the unknown is: is Moore limited in what he can draw up because of Dak's limitations? There are types of routes Dak simply can't throw which limits Moore. So this may be more about Dak than Moore. We don't know. Also, you call out a couple of perceived weaknesses, but the the bottom line is this was the #2 offense in the league. That doesn't square with the OC having glaring weaknesses that other OCs don't have. I also don't buy for second we have the 2nd best offensive personnel in the league. That can't be the case when our QB is so limited. I also disagree on CD and crosses despite what Irvin said (I assume that's what you are referring to). Those 2 picks where everyone was quoting Irvin were completely Dak's fault if you look at the All 22. Dak completely locked in on CeeDee and the safety jumped the route. There was no universe in which those 2 throws weren't going to be picks.

 

[BoyzBlaster]

The question isn't what Moore's offense can do against most defenses. The question is what can Moore's offense do against the best defenses, because to reach the Super Bowl, you are going to have to go through some really good defenses.

I think Moore's offense has some limitations or tendencies that hurt it against really good defenses. I think, like one of his mentors (Garrett), he leans too much on my guy being better than your guy and fails to create enough advantages. Now, he definitely does better than Garrett at that by using movement, but he doesn't do it enough through out-of-the-box play-calling.

I mentioned in another thread the Patriots' heavy use of rub routes to get receivers open, especially when their receiving corps wasn't really anything special. I also mentioned Parcells' use of "Jap plays" to create an advantage such as the fake cut block by the tight end that almost always seemed to get one wide open for a throw back from the quarterback on a run fake to the other side.

Against top defenses, you can't just expect to run your offense and do better than other teams did against them, you've got to hit them with the unexpected.

We are in total agreement about the true measuring stick being what you do in the post season, and that you face tougher defenses in the post season. And I appreciate you listing what you see as a couple of Moore's flaws. Where I am stuck is I just don't understand why so many people are just jumping to the conclusion that the problem with our offense in the post season is the OC when there is another, glaringly obvious (to me) explanation in the QB.

 

[BoyzBlaster]

Dak does a lot despite KM and the lack of WR’s. Haven’t you been paying attention to his play calling? When was the last time you saw a screen pass succeed ? When was the last time you saw an end around work? Daks strength is outside the pocket yet KM rarely takes advantage of it. OC’s are supposed to design an offense to the strengths of its players.

And yet they had the #2 offense in the league in the period I cited. The simple answer is the obvious answer - this has been an overwhelmingly productive offense (in the regular season at least), designed by someone who knows what he is doing and who is out performing his fellow OC's, and he knows more than your average internet poster.

 

[Cmac]

I'm ok with Kellen Moore returning if some serious adjustments are made with what he's doing. Immediate change: Get in the press box, sideline action ain't working. If he and Dak aren't going to be talking during the game, on the sideline or if he isn't going to gather the troops on the sideline.....take his #$#$ up to the pressbox......for starters. Just maybe, he might see the field better and the coverages imposed on the offense.

Sit with Dak during the offseason and work out the strengths and weaknesses and plays that aren't conducive to the strengths of the offense skill players. The scheme should adjust to the players at hand, not the other way around.

Get some balance to the offensive scheme. An OL player drafted and picked up in FA wouldn't hurt. Can't be old though.

And remind him.......he is on a short leash. Real short. The OC in Training program is expired.

 

[BoyzBlaster]

Run an offense that is prolific in the playoffs. Neither Garrett, Linehan, Moore, Romo, or Dak has succeeded in this offense in the playoffs. It’s not that we don’t appreciate Moore, it’s that we hate the offense, and sadly, it’s all Moore knows.

So you are assuming the post season problems are with the design of the offense. So you really think the simple obvious answer is that the design of the offense works incredibly well in the regular season but flops in the post season? As opposed to the answer being the QB struggles against post season defenses?

 

[BoyzBlaster]

He is just too easy to figure out. We are simply a vanilla offense

LOL and yet they have been the #2 offense in the league. Your comment doesn't pass the straight face test.

 

[BoyzBlaster]

Also to prove you wrong, if Dak struggles like you say then why run routes that helps a defense defend better instead of getting receivers wide open to make it easier on Dak.

That would be even more evidence that Moore needs to go

What does this comment even mean?