A starting caliber guard will be at 50

[Whyjerry]

Martin is a bust to this point. A reclamation project and nothing more. And his contract proves it. His "good pedigree" has gotten him on three teams within about a year's time.

So basically what we're saying is that we have no left guard as of today.



They don't need a bum like Marcus Martin derailing their entire offensive line either.

You could have said the same thing about Cooper last year. If Martin is such a bum - why did the genius Will McClay bring him in? Why would Paul Alexander, who has been coaching OLs, for 20+ years sign off on Martin? Maybe he is not a bum?

 

[Undefeated]

I would be fine with trading back to get an extra pick and getting Hernandez or Wynn

 

[Stash]

You could have said the same thing about Cooper last year.

Cooper was a first round pick. A Top 10 pick in fact. Not nearly the same "pedigree" you're now trying to talk up for Martin. And the only reason why the Cowboys were able to sign Cooper was because of his injuries early in his career. Martin is available and cheap because of his poor play and the fact that nobody wanted him. Not the same thing.

If Martin is such a bum - why did the genius Will McClay bring him in? Why would Paul Alexander, who has been coaching OLs, for 20+ years sign off on Martin? Maybe he is not a bum?

Because he's a reclamation project, a guy that Alexander feels like he might be able to develop. Here's a better question to ask yourself, why did Cooper get $5 million to go to San Francisco while Martin signed here for $800,000, less than half of what he was paid on the last year of his rookie contract? Why did Cooper get $2 million guaranteed while Martin got nothing?

Feel free to refute any of the facts presented here.

 

[PJTHEDOORS]

Well, Martin will be next to a (we hope) healthy TSmith and Frederick. Pretty sure he didn't have that kind of help at SF.

Good read here on his play (with GIFS)...
https://cowboyswire.usatoday.com/20...-agency-san-francisco-49ers-cleveland-browns/

 

[Whyjerry]

Cooper was a first round pick. A Top 10 pick in fact. Not nearly the same "pedigree" you're now trying to talk up for Martin. And the only reason why the Cowboys were able to sign Cooper was because of his injuries early in his career. Martin is available and cheap because of his poor play and the fact that nobody wanted him. Not the same thing.



Because he's a reclamation project, a guy that Alexander feels like he might be able to develop. Here's a better question to ask yourself, why did Cooper get $5 million to go to San Francisco while Martin signed here for $800,000, less than half of what he was paid on the last year of his rookie contract? Why did Cooper get $2 million guaranteed while Martin got nothing?

Feel free to refute any of the facts presented here.

You read like one of those super sensitive types. Cooper played for $600K in 2016. After the Cowboys picked him off the scrap heap. Pretty similar to that "bum" Martin's contract in his "comeback" . You can argue all day but this will be my last response as I suspect you are one of those last word types.

 

[RandyOh]

I'd be interested to hear your case for why a guard at #19 would be a bad idea?

The same reason why majority is against WR at 19. Day 2 WR and interior O line is deep this year and a better bang for your buck then drafting one at 19. Also i think we are overrating this years guard and center group. Usually 1, maybe 2 interior O lineman go in the 1st round (if any go in he 1st at all. Not one guard or center went in the first last year and their was some good ones). People are mocking 5 or 6 Guards/Centers to go in the fist this year with only one or 2 OTs in the fist (silly). Guard and Center are not highly valued positions. Teams will always reach for a risk/reward OT over a solid day 1 starting interior lineman.

I remember hearing last year how Forrest lamp was certain to go in the 1st. Was Hands down the best Guard in last years draft and was even being compared to our very own Zach Martin . went 38th overall. Heard Dan Feeney was 2nd best guard and was a candidate to sneak into the fist as well. Fell to 71. Wasn't Even the 2nd guard drafted.

Going even further their are even some guards being graded as 4th rounders that look like they can be plugged in at LG on into our line. Cole Madison, Wyatt Teller, Colby Gossett are just a few names to look out for in the 4th or even 5th.

 

[Stash]

You read like one of those super sensitive types.

Why is that? Because I actually support my position with facts and you don't like that because yours is just based off of opinion? Sorry, not sorry.

Cooper played for $600K in 2016. After the Cowboys picked him off the scrap heap.

Here's an actual detailed listing of what Jonathan Cooper has and hasn't been paid in his career. Please point out to the group where the $600k number you're mentioning comes in?

Pretty similar to that "bum" Martin's contract in his "comeback" . You can argue all day but this will be my last response as I suspect you are one of those last word types.

You really should cut and run. You've embarrassed yourself more than enough already by being proven to not know what the **** you're talking about.

 

[Sydla]

The fact Cooper was a former first round pick is meaningless at this point. He washed out in Arizona. He was then a throw in to NE for Chandler Jones. He got hurt in camp and never could get his starting job back to NE cut him 4 games into the season. Cleveland grabbed him but then cut him after 5 games because Bailey came off suspension.

So at that point, he's not much different than a Marcus Martin or any other scrap heap OG out there.

 

[Stash]

The same reason why majority is against WR at 19. Day 2 WR and interior O line is deep this year and a better bang for your buck then drafting one at 19.

What's better "bang for your buck" than filling your biggest need with appropriately ranked talent?

Also i think we are overrating this years guard and center group. Usually 1, maybe 2 interior O lineman go in the 1st round (if any go in he 1st at all. Not one guard or center went in the first last year and their was some good ones). People are mocking 5 or 6 Guards/Centers to go in the fist this year with only one or 2 OTs in the fist (silly). Guard and Center are not highly valued positions. Teams will always reach for a risk/reward OT over a solid day 1 starting interior lineman.

"We" as in everyone? Because Wynn and Hernandez are listed as first round players by most, if not all rankings I've seen. Neither guy would be considered a reach at pick #19.

An so if guard is "not a highly valued position", what are we about to pay ours in excess of $15 million a year?

I remember hearing last year how Forrest lamp was certain to go in the 1st. Was Hands down the best Guard in last years draft and was even being compared to our very own Zach Martin . went 38th overall. Heard Dan Feeney was 2nd best guard and was a candidate to sneak into the fist as well. Fell to 71. Wasn't Even the 2nd guard drafted.

Not understanding the point you're trying to make here?

Going even further their are even some guards being graded as 4th rounders that look like they can be plugged in at LG on into our line. Cole Madison, Wyatt Teller, Colby Gossett are just a few names to look out for in the 4th or even 5th.

Anybody can be "plugged in" at left guard. That doesn't mean that they'll be good.

 

[AmishCowboy]

You could have said the same thing about Cooper last year. If Martin is such a bum - why did the genius Will McClay bring him in? Why would Paul Alexander, who has been coaching OLs, for 20+ years sign off on Martin? Maybe he is not a bum?

Hope so, but I wouldn't have let Cooper get out of here

 

[Stash]

The fact Cooper was a former first round pick is meaningless at this point. He washed out in Arizona. He was then a throw in to NE for Chandler Jones. He got hurt in camp and never could get his starting job back to NE cut him 4 games into the season. Cleveland grabbed him but then cut him after 5 games because Bailey came off suspension.

So at that point, he's not much different than a Marcus Martin or any other scrap heap OG out there.

Nice try, but the fact is that one guy was first round talent and the other guy wasn't. You can try to call that "meaningless" all you want, doesn't make it remotely true.

We all know why a talent like Cooper was ever available in the first place - injury. You said it yourself.

And we also know why a guy like Martin is available - poor play.

The situations aren't remotely similar.

 

[Whyjerry]

Hope so, but I wouldn't have let Cooper get out of here

Agree. I liked Cooper. I thought he was solid. Have to think Paul Alexander had a say in what they did. We will see.

 

[Sydla]

Nice try, but the fact is that one guy was first round talent and the other guy wasn't. You can try to call that "meaningless" all you want, doesn't make it remotely true.

We all know why a talent like Cooper was ever available in the first place - injury. You said it yourself.

And we also know why a guy like Martin is available - poor play.

The situations aren't remotely similar.

Maybe he wasn't a first round talent? Maybe the Cardinals and scouts messed up on him?

The fact he's been on four teams thus far and no one has fought to keep him would indicate, that maybe, he wasn't worth a first round pick. And his only "injury" issue was in NE. He wasn't really hurt in Cleveland and they shitcanned him for Alvin Bailey. Arizona couldn't wait to dump him and were rumored to be thinking of cutting him at that season's end.

So the point is pretty accurate. He was a massive bust at OG that latched on here and played well because he likely was squashed between two All Pros.

 

[Stash]

Maybe he wasn't a first round talent? Maybe the Cardinals and scouts messed up on him?

Yeah, the Cardinals, the Cowboys, and every draft evaluator in the world. Are you really getting this desperate now?

The fact he's been on four teams thus far and no one has fought to keep him would indicate, that maybe, he wasn't worth a first round pick. And his only "injury" issue was in NE. He wasn't really hurt in Cleveland and they ****canned him for Alvin Bailey. Arizona couldn't wait to dump him and were rumored to be thinking of cutting him at that season's end.

Seriously? Revisionist history now? First, you bash the guy for being injured, and now you want to say he wasn't injured? It's getting sad now, just sad.

So the point is pretty accurate. He was a massive bust at OG that latched on here and played well because he likely was squashed between two All Pros.

There's been nothing "accurate" about anything you've posted about him. You're succeeding only in embarrassing yourself.

 

[RandyOh]

What's better "bang for your buck" than filling your biggest need with appropriately ranked talent?



"We" as in everyone? Because Wynn and Hernandez are listed as first round players by most, if not all rankings I've seen. Neither guy would be considered a reach at pick #19.

An so if guard is "not a highly valued position", what are we about to pay ours in excess of $15 million a year?



Not understanding the point you're trying to make here?



Anybody can be "plugged in" at left guard. That doesn't mean that they'll be good.

Who said Guard is our biggest need? You? Not going any further with you until I hear your reasoning for why we must go Guard at 19 and why the guards projected in the 2nd (if you can really name any. Couldn’t give me any names last year from the draft when we debated about olinemen). We arguably have the best LT, C, And OG in the entire league. OG is not our biggest need. We don’t have 1starting quality safety. Our only starting quality linebacker is standing on the sidelines with a concussion as much as he is on the field making plays, and the interior of our d line is so trash that teams run on us at will. So please why is Guard a much bigger need then others on our team? Why can’t it wait till 50 to be addressed?

 

[Stash]

Who said Guard is our biggest need? You?

I will gladly go through each position on the team at any of the positions that someone wants to draft in the first round and then talk about how big of a need it is.

Not going any further with you until I hear your reasoning for why we must go Guard at 19 and why the guards projected in the 2nd (if you can really name any. Couldn’t give me any names last year from the draft when we debated about olinemen).

I'm not saying we "must go guard at 19" . I'm saying that we shouldn't rule it out completely the way some are trying to here in starting this thread.

We arguably have the best LT, C, And OG in the entire league.

Undeniable. And undeniably irrelevant to what we do at left guard.

OG is not our biggest need. We don’t have 1starting quality safety.

We have the same guys that we're good enough to have started for all of 2017. If they're moving Jones, it's not to create a hole where none exists.

Our only starting quality linebacker is standing on the sidelines with a concussion as much as he is on the field making plays,

So you want to draft a backup player in the first round in case that player gets hurt? What if he doesn't? Or what if he plays 10-plus games? What are you getting out of that backup first rounder?

and the interior of our d line is so trash that teams run on us at will.

Who is your D-line guy at #19 who will change that? I'm open yo suggestions?

So please why is Guard a much bigger need then others on our team? Why can’t it wait till 50 to be addressed?

It can wait, but it doesn't have to. And, as I've repeatedly said, what starting position is more open right now, with less proven players to fill it?

 

[Sydla]

Yeah, the Cardinals, the Cowboys, and every draft evaluator in the world. Are you really getting this desperate now?



Seriously? Revisionist history now? First, you bash the guy for being injured, and now you want to say he wasn't injured? It's getting sad now, just sad.



There's been nothing "accurate" about anything you've posted about him. You're succeeding only in embarrassing yourself.

I do admit it's possible that he never was the same since breaking his leg as a rookie. But at this point, you can't argue that he isn't a journeyman type OG at this point of his career simply because he never recovered from a broken leg 5 years ago. He is what he was and is at this point in his career. You don't get bonus points for being a first round pick. Results are all that matters at this point and Cooper has never matched his first round value.

Even if you believe that the broken leg cost him his career, it happened and over his entire career, he was simply nothing more than a journeyman type OL. You can't give him credit for being a first round pick when he never played like a first round pick (even if the broken leg was an issue).

And he was available to us not because he was injured. He was healthy in Cleveland when they cut him. He simply got benched for Alvin Bailey, who they thought was better, after Bailey came off suspension.

 

[RandyOh]

I will gladly go through each position on the team at any of the positions that someone wants to draft in the first round and then talk about how big of a need it is.



I'm not saying we "must go guard at 19" . I'm saying that we shouldn't rule it out completely the way some are trying to here in starting this thread.



Undeniable. And undeniably irrelevant to what we do at left guard.



We have the same guys that we're good enough to have started for all of 2017. If they're moving Jones, it's not to create a hole where none exists.



So you want to draft a backup player in the first round in case that player gets hurt? What if he doesn't? Or what if he plays 10-plus games? What are you getting out of that backup first rounder?



Who is your D-line guy at #19 who will change that? I'm open yo suggestions?



It can wait, but it doesn't have to. And, as I've repeatedly said, what starting position is more open right now, with less proven players to fill it?

For the record I as well am not against a guard at 19 if our board is wiped. I’m just against the mindset that guards outside of the 1st will not plug the need so it’s a must. Thanks for clearing that up.

Our safety group gets worse with Jones moving to corner. He was the only one who can really cover. Woods looks like ha can be something but he was playing at the slot. A safety would be huge get. Only 2 worth by 19 will most likely be gone but their is talk of Derwin James slipping to us or within a small trade up.

Seems like Smith could be moved to SAM until we know for certain he can man the WILL for a likely injured Lee so a MIKE is a big need. Edmunds is the only non pass rushing linebacker I’m ruling out of reach. Roquan Smith, Rashaan Evans, and LVE could all fill the need at MIKE at 19 or with a small trade up.

Vita Vea is my favorite DT in this years draft. Think Haloti Ngata with more pass rush ability. He’s more of a hope then a certain but it’s rumored that the few teams ahead of us that could take him either like the other top DT Da’Ron Payne more or are looking to fill an other need more. Raiders looking at LBs, Skins looking at DB or RB, Chargers love Payne more.

And my answer for your last question is middle Linebacker and Safety are less proven then the options we have at LG. We lost our safety net at LB in Hitchens and as far as I’m concerned we have nothing but the equivalent of Joe Looney at either safety spot.

 

[Stash]

LOL. The only person getting desperate now here is you. Yes, many of the draft evaluators pretty much missed on Cooper. He was a top pick in the draft that never, ever lived up to the hype or success someone picked at the spot would have been expected to meet. So yes, it's likely he was never properly evaluated by teams. It happens. A lot.

"LOL", the point is that was it was a consensus. If the Cardinals were wrong, everybody was wrong. But I see what it is. Another weak attempt on your part to minimize the guy's talent. Another failure in a long list. More desperation.

And what revisionist history? You made the comment that the only reason he was available in the first place was injury. As if he's some poor luck dude who simply had injury issues plaguing him. That's bogus. He was largely healthy in Arizona and never played up to his pick.

Fine. I'll call out the lies.

"Cooper was signed to a four-year, $14.55 million contract on July 28, 2013.[11] On August 24, in the third preseason game against the San Diego Chargers, Cooper broke his left fibula. On August 30, the Cardinals placed him on the injured reserve list. It has been speculated that he was never the same player following this injury.[12]

In 2014, he was named the starter at left guard even though he was slow to recover from his previous injury and battled through a turf toe and knee injury in training camp. The injuries forced the Cardinals to name Ted Larsen as the starter at left guard to start the season. In week 14 against the Kansas City Chiefs, an ankle injury to left guard Paul Fanaika opened the door for Cooper to have his first career start. He started 2 games until injuring his left wrist against the Seattle Seahawks in week 15.

In 2015, he was moved to the right guard starting position after the team signed All-Pro Mike Iupati, but he suffered a knee injury against the Seattle Seahawks in Week 10 and would lose again his job to Larsen. The Cardinals were planning to move Cooper to center during the 2016 offseason.[13]
"

That's not "largely healthy". That's not marginally healthy. That's not close to healthy. Your bogus claim is a lie.

He was hurt AND GOT HEALTHY in NE but he wasn't good enough to get his job back. So they cut him.

Another attempted lie. This is from the actual report of when and why he was released. He was working with the first team when he was injured. He was cut as soon as he was healthy and never got the chance to "get his job back."

"Cooper had been working with the first unit at right guard through spring practices and into the third day of training camp, when a foot injury sidelined him. He had just been removed from the team's injury report this week."

In Cleveland, again, healthy and yet he couldn't beat out Alvin Bailey after Bailey came off suspension. He wasn't needed in Cleveland, so they cut him. So no, he wasn't available because of injury. He was available largely because he was never good enough in any of his stops to warrant the team keeping him. And he was available to us because Cleveland thought he was worse than Alvin Bailey and had no use for him anymore.

And let's based analysis off of what Cleveland does.

So the only person embarrassing himself here is you in your desperate attempt to argue how smart it would be to take an OG at 19.

I'm not the guy resorting to lying, distorting the truth, and making **** up, that'd be you. I'm embarrassed for you.

Cooper was a large bust. Anyone who is honest with themselves can and should admit that. Arizona no longer wanted him. NE didn't want him even after he came back from his injury. Cleveland didn't need him anymore and cut him too.

Due to injury, not poor play like Marcus Martin. But you keep embarrassing yourself with the untrue claims and I'll keep making people aware of the truth.

And the Cowboys, apparently, thought Marcus Martin was a better option for $800K than Cooper at $2MM (which by the way, I agree they should have looked at keeping him).

Also inaccurate. The number for Cooper was $5 million. That's what he got to sign with San Francisco. The team that coincidentally was the one that decided that Marcus Martin was no answer.

So at this point, it's hard to argue that Cooper isn't anything more than a journeyman OG.

I have $5 million for my argument, compared to $800,000 for a true turd you're desperately trying to shine up.

 

[speedkilz88]

Martin was considered the best C in his draft.