A starting caliber guard will be at 50

[WillieBeamen]

We wont have our #50 pick, if you get what im hinting at

 

[Stash]

For the record I as well am not against a guard at 19 if our board is wiped. I’m just against the mindset that guards outside of the 1st will not plug the need so it’s a must. Thanks for clearing that up.

As long as neither of us is dealing in absolutes, we can have a nice conversation and debate.

Our safety group gets worse with Jones moving to corner. He was the only one who can really cover. Woods looks like ha can be something but he was playing at the slot. A safety would be huge get. Only 2 worth by 19 will most likely be gone but their is talk of Derwin James slipping to us or within a small trade up.

I'd be good with him over guard if he was there.

Seems like Smith could be moved to SAM until we know for certain he can man the WILL for a likely injured Lee so a MIKE is a big need. Edmunds is the only non pass rushing linebacker I’m ruling out of reach. Roquan Smith, Rashaan Evans, and LVE could all fill the need at MIKE at 19 or with a small trade up.

I'm not trading up for anybody. But with all of those players you've listed, their play time would be limited. Also limiting the return on the first round investment. Even as you say, "Smith could be moved to SAM", or he could not. And that MIKE in all likelihood is playing less than 50% of those snaps this year barring injury.

Vita Vea is my favorite DT in this years draft. Think Haloti Ngata with more pass rush ability. He’s more of a hope then a certain but it’s rumored that the few teams ahead of us that could take him either like the other top DT Da’Ron Payne more or are looking to fill an other need more. Raiders looking at LBs, Skins looking at DB or RB, Chargers love Payne more.

I'd be thrilled to get Vea as well. I have no problem taking him over the guard spot. Even though he'd likely play less overall snaps, I think he could change the defensive line overall a great deal and I think he's a superior talent overall, to either of the guards.

And my answer for your last question is middle Linebacker and Safety are less proven then the options we have at LG. We lost our safety net at LB in Hitchens and as far as I’m concerned we have nothing but the equivalent of Joe Looney at either safety spot.

I see a proven backup in Joe Looney. With 6 years of support for that. I don't see 6-year backups at those other positions.

 

[BourbonBalz]

I'd be interested to hear your case for why a guard at #19 would be a bad idea?

Because we desperately need to use that pick on defense. Take the best of LB, DT, or DE in the first round. There will be a player at one or more of these positions that merit being picked at 19.

 

[BourbonBalz]

I think they will go LB in the first and WR in the second...maybe reverse that.

I want either a LB or DT in the first and a WR in the second. Of course, all of this depends on who is on the board when we pick.

 

[Stash]

Because we desperately need to use that pick on defense. Take the best of LB, DT, or DE in the first round. There will be a player at one or more of these positions that merit being picked at 19.

To play part time or as a backup? Not a compelling case.

 

[BourbonBalz]

What's better "bang for your buck" than filling your biggest need with appropriately ranked talent?



"We" as in everyone? Because Wynn and Hernandez are listed as first round players by most, if not all rankings I've seen. Neither guy would be considered a reach at pick #19.

An so if guard is "not a highly valued position", what are we about to pay ours in excess of $15 million a year?



Not understanding the point you're trying to make here?



Anybody can be "plugged in" at left guard. That doesn't mean that they'll be good.

The problem is guard is NOT the biggest need. That's nothing more than your opinion. I don't think there's any doubt that LB and/or DT is our biggest need. You might not agree, but I think most do.

 

[BourbonBalz]

To play part time or as a backup? Not a compelling case.

We need a starting caliber LB. I don't see how that is even up for debate.

 

[Stash]

The problem is guard is NOT the biggest need. That's nothing more than your opinion. I don't think there's any doubt that LB and/or DT is our biggest need.

Which would be "nothing more than your opinion".

The difference is that I'm at least backing mine up.

You might not agree, but I think most do.

I think that you, like me, speak for yourself and not for "most."

 

[Stash]

We need a starting caliber LB. I don't see how that is even up for debate.

Who's he "starting" over? How much is he "starting?"

That's up for considerable debate.

 

[RandyOh]

As long as neither of us is dealing in absolutes, we can have a nice conversation and debate.



I'd be good with him over guard if he was there.



I'm not trading up for anybody. But with all of those players you've listed, their play time would be limited. Also limiting the return on the first round investment. Even as you say, "Smith could be moved to SAM", or he could not. And that MIKE in all likelihood is playing less than 50% of those snaps this year barring injury.



I'd be thrilled to get Vea as well. I have no problem taking him over the guard spot. Even though he'd likely play less overall snaps, I think he could change the defensive line overall a great deal and I think he's a superior talent overall, to either of the guards.



I see a proven backup in Joe Looney. With 6 years of support for that. I don't see 6-year backups at those other positions.

I agree with most of what your saying other then Linebacker. The ones i named can all cover. Something i forgot to add is that Linebacker and safety have a much bigger drop off in talent from the the top names then guard. My favorite guard in this years class is Austin Corbett out of Nevada. Has a day 2 grade. needs to get a little stronger but his Technique might be the best other then Quinton Nelson who might be the best football player in this years draft. Also has position flex. Can play OT if needed. If i had it my way we would walk away with Vea in the first and Corbett in the 2nd. Both sides of the trenches would start the season massively improved. Also don't be surprised if Will Hernandez falls out of the first as their have been a few grumblings as it being a possibility due to lesser value of the position as well as the depth of Guard talent this year . i would absolutely be down for a trading both 50 and 81 to go up and get him if its required.

 

[BourbonBalz]

If one of Vea, Edmunds, or James were to miraculously fall to us at 19 and we don't take one of the three, I might just stop following the NFL. LOL Of course, I don't think any of the three will be there, but a guy can dream. Absent one of those three, I'd probably go with LVE or Evans. Maybe Payne. I do not want a guard or WR at # 19.

 

[BourbonBalz]

Who's he "starting" over? How much is he "starting?"

That's up for considerable debate.

You could say the same thing about drafting a guard. Just because we take one at 19 doesn't mean he starts immediately. Besides, defensive players are different. Varying packages are used based on down and distance and the offense they're facing from game to game. That doesn't make them any less important. Our defense fell apart last year when Lee went down for a few games.

 

[Stash]

I agree with most of what your saying other then Linebacker. The ones i named can all cover. Something i forgot to add is that Linebacker and safety have a much bigger drop off in talent from the the top names then guard.

I would counter that argument with the fact that this team plays with three linebackers on the field about 30% of the time. So that linebacker wouldn't be playing a whole lot. Certainly nowhere near as many snaps as your starting guard would. That's a key consideration.

My favorite guard in this years class is Austin Corbett out of Nevada. Has a day 2 grade. needs to get a little stronger but his Technique might be the best other then Quinton Nelson who might be the best football player in this years draft. Also has position flex. Can play OT if needed. If i had it my way we would walk away with Vea in the first and Corbett in the 2nd. Both sides of the trenches would start the season massively improved. Also don't be surprised if Will Hernandez falls out of the first as their have been a few grumblings as it being a possibility due to lesser value of the position as well as the depth of Guard talent this year . i would absolutely be down for a trading both 50 and 81 to go up and get him if its required.

That's exactly what I would be trying to do if I could somehow get Vea at 19. I'd immediately start working to phones to trade back up for Hernandez or Wynn.

But I don't see "lesser value of the position" when Nelson is going top 10, or when guys are getting $15 million a year deals. That says quite the opposite to me.

 

[Stash]

You could say the same thing about drafting a guard. Just because we take one at 19 doesn't mean he starts immediately.

So you're saying that neither Hernandez nor Wynn com,d beat out Marcus Martin?

Besides, defensive players are different. Varying packages are used based on down and distance and the offense they're facing from game to game. That doesn't make them any less important.

It limits their ability to give a proper return on investment. The less you play, the less you're able to impact a game. If the player is good enough and dominant enough, they're nit being taken off the field for the sake of "packages". And if they are being taken off the field, they're not worth the huge investment. That's the point.

Our defense fell apart last year when Lee went down for a few games.

No doubt. Are you drafting this year's replacement for him? If not, it's not worth the #19 overall pick to take a "just in case" backup player over a starter.

 

[BourbonBalz]

Which would be "nothing more than your opinion".

The difference is that I'm at least backing mine up.



I think that you, like me, speak for yourself and not for "most."

Either LVE or Evans should step right in and start at MLB. Keep Smith and Lee both outside.

 

[Stash]

Either LVE or Evans should step right in and start at MLB. Keep Smith and Lee both outside.

And play 30% of the time.

 

[BourbonBalz]

So you're saying that neither Hernandez nor Wynn com,d beat out Marcus Martin?



It limits their ability to give a proper return on investment. The less you play, the less you're able to impact a game. If the player is good enough and dominant enough, they're nit being taken off the field for the sake of "packages". And if they are being taken off the field, they're not worth the huge investment. That's the point.



No doubt. Are you drafting this year's replacement for him? If not, it's not worth the #19 overall pick to take a "just in case" backup player over a starter.

This isn't 1978. Today's NFL defenses are very different. Do you even pay attention? Every NFL defense uses packages. It's just the way it is. We don't need more first round picks on the OL. We don't have that luxury when we have much bigger needs. We didn't lose to Green Bay in the playoffs the last two times because we needed another 1st round guard. We lost because our defense couldn't get stops.

 

[BourbonBalz]

And play 30% of the time.

Again, that's your opinion. Regardless, that 30% you seem so enamored with can either win or cost you a game.

 

[BourbonBalz]

By the way, if we have three good starting LBers that can actually cover, they will be on the field more on third down. LVE can certainly cover.

 

[Stash]

This isn't 1978. Today's NFL defenses are very different. Do you even pay attention? Every NFL defense uses packages.

And dominant players aren't "packaged". They play. A lot. It looks like it's you who doesn't pay attention.

It's just the way it is.

Is this the line you use when you've got nothing else?

We don't need more first round picks on the OL. We don't have that luxury when we have much bigger needs.

Produce a "bigger need" than a guy who will play 100% of your snaps on his side of the ball?

We didn't lose to Green Bay in the playoffs the last two times because we needed another 1st round guard. We lost because our defense couldn't get stops.

And without strong guard play at both positions, we never even make it that far.