A starting caliber guard will be at 50

[Stash]

Again, that's your opinion. Regardless, that 30% you seem so enamored with can either win or cost you a game.

It's fact, it's not opinion.

Opinion is the only thing you're bringing to this conversation. Not a shred of support or stats whatsoever to back up anything you've claimed.

 

[BourbonBalz]

It's fact, it's not opinion.

Opinion is the only thing you're bringing to this conversation. Not a shred of support or stats whatsoever to back up anything you've claimed.

Sure thing Lombardi.

 

[Stash]

By the way, if we have three good starting LBers that can actually cover, they will be on the field more on third down. LVE can certainly cover.

Yeah, all of those base defense third down plays....

 

[RandyOh]

I would counter that argument with the fact that this team plays with three linebackers on the field about 30% of the time. So that linebacker wouldn't be playing a whole lot. Certainly nowhere near as many snaps as your starting guard would. That's a key consideration.



That's exactly what I would be trying to do if I could somehow get Vea at 19. I'd immediately start working to phones to trade back up for Hernandez or Wynn.

But I don't see "lesser value of the position" when Nelson is going top 10, or when guys are getting $15 million a year deals. That says quite the opposite to me.

I looking at it more of Jaylon Smith snaps being cut at the moment for someone who can man the MIKE full time more effectively but we will agree to disagree on LB.

I see these jumps in price for Guards more or so due to teams having huge amounts of cap and needing to spend more, then Guards value on the rise. But thats free agency. When it comes to the draft teams focus on trying to get better talent at one of the money 5 positions for cheap over other positions. I'll go back to last years draft. Forrest Lamp was not only the best guard but the best Olineman. 3 OTs was taken ahead of him in a very weak OT class due to OTs being a more value position. We can agree to disagree about the value OG as well though.

 

[4th_and_short]

I disagree in thinking that if a defender doesn’t play every down they aren’t worth taking in R1. The defense needs better quality starters/depth in a lot of places and sinking another first into the Oline isn’t upgrading anything on the other side of the ball. The Dline rotation outside of 2-3 players are all JAGs. After Smith/Lee who are the LBs? The defense needs a continued overhaul like the secondary from last year.

What would have more value? A starting G at 19 or 50 who plays every snap on offense?

 

[BourbonBalz]

Yeah, all of those base defense third down plays....

You're just not very smart. That's OK. You try hard.

 

[Stash]

Sure thing Lombardi.

You are truly awful at this.

You've got nothing. And yet have the lack of self awareness to try to discount anyone else's opinions. People that actually have support for what they're saying, unlike you.

 

[Stash]

You're just not very smart. That's OK. You try hard.

Smarter than somebody with jack **** to support what they say.

So I've got that going for me, which is nice.

 

[BourbonBalz]

Smarter than somebody with jack **** to support what they say.

So I've got that going for me, which is nice.

Yep. You're a legend in your own mind with your "stats". The stats show we need defensive help (and a lot of it), but you go on with your guard desire. How much do you want to bet that we take a guard at 19? How much?

 

[Stash]

I disagree in thinking that if a defender doesn’t play every down they aren’t worth taking in R1. The defense needs better quality starters/depth in a lot of places and sinking another first into the Oline isn’t upgrading anything on the other side of the ball.

You're right, guards don't play defense. No denying that logic.

The Dline rotation outside of 2-3 players are all JAGs. After Smith/Lee who are the LBs? The defense needs a continued overhaul like the secondary from last year.

I don't deny that it does. But are you sitting Smith and Lee all the time for this other linebacker? If not, you find part time players after round 1.

What would have more value? A starting G at 19 or 50 who plays every snap on offense?

Isn't it more than a bit ignorant to somehow think that the guy at 50 is as good a second the guy at 19? I mean if you're doing that, just get a name with the letter "G" next to it and be done with it, right?

 

[Stash]

Yep. You're a legend in your own mind with your "stats". The stats show we need defensive help (and a lot of it), but you go on with your guard desire.

More of those pesky "facts" that you don't like, and "stats that show" the truth:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/dal/2017.htm

Defense finished ranked 8th, offense finished 14th. But you go ahead and give unsupported opinion and I'll be the guy that supports mine with truth and facts.

How much do you want to bet that we take a guard at 19? How much?

What the hell does that have anything at all to do with my position?

Are you a five-year old?

Is this a tantrum?

Did you make sure to stomp your feet when you typed it?

This has to sting after a while.

 

[Stash]

I looking at it more of Jaylon Smith snaps being cut at the moment for someone who can man the MIKE full time more effectively but we will agree to disagree on LB.

So Jaylon Smith is a bust and a part time player then? OK, I disagree with that plan and making that decision already. It means that the 34th pick of the 2016 draft is declared a waste of just one year of playing.

I see these jumps in price for Guards more or so due to teams having huge amounts of cap and needing to spend more, then Guards value on the rise. But thats free agency. When it comes to the draft teams focus on trying to get better talent at one of the money 5 positions for cheap over other positions. I'll go back to last years draft. Forrest Lamp was not only the best guard but the best Olineman. 3 OTs was taken ahead of him in a very weak OT class due to OTs being a more value position. We can agree to disagree about the value OG as well though.

Yeah, when they're making $13 million a year, I'll disagree that they're not valued.

 

[4th_and_short]

You're right, guards don't play defense. No denying that logic.



I don't deny that it does. But are you sitting Smith and Lee all the time for this other linebacker? If not, you find part time players after round 1.



Isn't it more than a bit ignorant to somehow think that the guy at 50 is as good a second the guy at 19? I mean if you're doing that, just get a name with the letter "G" next to it and be done with it, right?

The logic is that the defense needs further overhauling and that the Oline already has 3 All-Pros and a ton of money invested into it. Allocation of resources.

That depends on whether the LB excels in coverage or not, or can develop coverage abilities. I understand the point you’re making but I also think you’re looking at it from the wrong angle. The pick doesn’t have to be a LB either. The interior Dline needs to get upgraded. Collins can’t stay healthy and Ash is a JAG. Irving could be gone next season. Who are the DTs?

The depth of interior Olineman is deeper than MLBs. After Nelson most of the other Gs graded as late 1s/early-mids 2s are pretty close imo. After LVE and Evans, the next MLBs are graded as 3/4 rounders. If you can get a G at 50 with similar talent as someone you get at 19, where is the better bang for your buck? (Since you’re arguing value by snap count)

 

[RandyOh]

So Jaylon Smith is a bust and a part time player then? OK, I disagree with that plan and making that decision already. It means that the 34th pick of the 2016 draft is declared a waste of just one year of playing.



Yeah, when they're making $13 million a year, I'll disagree that they're not valued.

At one point he was my favorite player in the 2016 draft. Hes not that player anymore. We wouldn't have him on the team if he was because he would have gone top 10. So yes at this point he may be just a part time player. Don't see whats wrong with having a great SAM linebacker. He was always a bigger gamble then your average draft prospect. If he can find his niche on the team and do it well then great. Also i see him more as Sean Lees replacement then our MIKE. let him play at the SAM and step in at the WILL when needed.

Again we will Agree to Disagree on the true value of Guard. Also Martin has yet to be extended. I would hate if this happened but its possible that other teams stupidity this offeason has caused us to shy away from making Martin the top paid guard. We may not value it at the current price. Just something to think about.

 

[Stash]

The logic is that the defense needs further overhauling and that the Oline already has 3 All-Pros and a ton of money invested into it. Allocation of resources.

The offense consists of four first round draft picks:

Elliott, Smith, Fredrick, and Martin.

Witten and Williams were third rounders, Beasley and Hurns were undrafted.

And Dak was a fourth round draft pick.

On defense, they have a first invested in Taco, a second and third invested in Lawrence. A first rounder invested in Byron Jones too. A third invested in Maliek Collins, a second invested it Lee and Smith, as well as Awuzie last year, and a third rounder invested in Jordan Lewis. I don't see a disproportionate allocation of resources between the two sides of the ball.

That depends on whether the LB excels in coverage or not, or can develop coverage abilities. I understand the point you’re making but I also think you’re looking at it from the wrong angle. The pick doesn’t have to be a LB either. The interior Dline needs to get upgraded. Collins can’t stay healthy and Ash is a JAG. Irving could be gone next season. Who are the DTs?

Again, I'm not deadset against taking a DT if the proper value is there and he's a superior player to either of the guards

The depth of interior Olineman is deeper than MLBs. After Nelson most of the other Gs graded as late 1s/early-mids 2s are pretty close imo. After LVE and Evans, the next MLBs are graded as 3/4 rounders. If you can get a G at 50 with similar talent as someone you get at 19, where is the better bang for your buck? (Since you’re arguing value by snap count)

The guard at #19. Your claims of "similar talent" aren't accurate.

I can guarantee that he will start and play 100% of the snaps barring injury. Nobody can do the same for any linebacker this team could draft.

 

[4th_and_short]

More of those pesky "facts" that you don't like, and "stats that show" the truth:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/dal/2017.htm

What I see is a defense ranked 26th in giving up passing TDs. 24th in getting interceptions. 18th in yards allowed against the rush, giving up an average of 4.1(!) yards per run. Ranked 23rd against opposing team’s TOP.

How does a ball control offense work when the defense can’t get off the field?

 

[Stash]

At one point he was my favorite player in the 2016 draft. Hes not that player anymore. We wouldn't have him on the team if he was because he would have gone top 10. So yes at this point he may be just a part time player. Don't see whats wrong with having a great SAM linebacker. He was always a bigger gamble then your average draft prospect. If he can find his niche on the team and do it well then great. Also i see him more as Sean Lees replacement then our MIKE. let him play at the SAM and step in at the WILL when needed.

"What's wrong" is that you're admitting he was a mistake. Even I feel you're nit admitting he was a mistake. Actions, not words. If he's relegated to playing strong side linebacker, it was a mistake to draft him in the first place. And he'll always be a part time player.

Why do you think this team has always had guys like Damien Wilson or Kyle Wilbur manning that spot? Because it's the least of the linebacker roles and the easiest to fill with lesser talent. Putting the #34 overall pick in that role means you blew it.

Again we will Agree to Disagree on the true value of Guard.

Part time linebacker value as well.

But I know what the league is paying for. They value the guard position. More and more each year.

Also Martin has yet to be extended. I would hate if this happened but its possible that other teams stupidity this offeason has caused us to shy away from making Martin the top paid guard. We may not value it at the current price. Just something to think about.

You'll have to tell me about it if it happens then.

 

[Stash]

What I see is a defense ranked 26th in giving up passing TDs. 24th in getting interceptions. 18th in yards allowed against the rush, giving up an average of 4.1(!) yards per run. Ranked 23rd against opposing team’s TOP.

How does a ball control offense work when the defense can’t get off the field?

How does a "ball control" offense work without a left guard?

 

[Sydla]

"LOL", the point is that was it was a consensus. If the Cardinals were wrong, everybody was wrong. But I see what it is. Another weak attempt on your part to minimize the guy's talent. Another failure in a long list. More desperation.



Fine. I'll call out the lies.

"Cooper was signed to a four-year, $14.55 million contract on July 28, 2013.[11] On August 24, in the third preseason game against the San Diego Chargers, Cooper broke his left fibula. On August 30, the Cardinals placed him on the injured reserve list. It has been speculated that he was never the same player following this injury.[12]

In 2014, he was named the starter at left guard even though he was slow to recover from his previous injury and battled through a turf toe and knee injury in training camp. The injuries forced the Cardinals to name Ted Larsen as the starter at left guard to start the season. In week 14 against the Kansas City Chiefs, an ankle injury to left guard Paul Fanaika opened the door for Cooper to have his first career start. He started 2 games until injuring his left wrist against the Seattle Seahawks in week 15.

In 2015, he was moved to the right guard starting position after the team signed All-Pro Mike Iupati, but he suffered a knee injury against the Seattle Seahawks in Week 10 and would lose again his job to Larsen. The Cardinals were planning to move Cooper to center during the 2016 offseason.[13]
"

That's not "largely healthy". That's not marginally healthy. That's not close to healthy. Your bogus claim is a lie.




Another attempted lie. This is from the actual report of when and why he was released. He was working with the first team when he was injured. He was cut as soon as he was healthy and never got the chance to "get his job back."

"Cooper had been working with the first unit at right guard through spring practices and into the third day of training camp, when a foot injury sidelined him. He had just been removed from the team's injury report this week."




And let's based analysis off of what Cleveland does.



I'm not the guy resorting to lying, distorting the truth, and making **** up, that'd be you. I'm embarrassed for you.




Due to injury, not poor play like Marcus Martin. But you keep embarrassing yourself with the untrue claims and I'll keep making people aware of the truth.



Also inaccurate. The number for Cooper was $5 million. That's what he got to sign with San Francisco. The team that coincidentally was the one that decided that Marcus Martin was no answer.



I have $5 million for my argument, compared to $800,000 for a true turd you're desperately trying to shine up.

Ummm if a guy is cut after immediately getting healthy, he's not good enough to get his job back. That's pretty basic logic.

And when he was available to us, he wasn't injured or coming off injury. He was healthy. Cleveland cut him because they thought they had a better player in Bailey.

And the reality is, if that broken leg before his rookie year has hindered him throughout his career, its not like you can pretend it never happened. He broke his leg. It may have made him a worse player. In the end, he's still a worse player who never lived up to his first round status and is nothing more than a journeyman OG who was passed off to two other teams before landing in Dallas on a fairly cheap, one year, prove it contract.

I get your San Fran point and it makes sense. So I was wrong there. But what I was trying to say was the Cooper, being a journeyman OG, got a fairly cheap one year, prove it deal. He wasn't paid a big deal because he was a former first round pick. He was paid at a level that belied his true value at that point in his career.

You've basically made Cooper out to be a much better player than he actually was when we took a chance on him in 2016. He was nothing more than a journeyman OG at that point likely looking at his final chance to stick with a team if he didn't play adequately enough.

 

[gmoney112]

On defense we were below average in every stat on a per drive basis, except for Points/drive which was 17th so we did play better in the redzone which is a silver lining I guess.

For most, we were in the bottom 25%