Adrian Peterson Sweepstakes ***Officially reinstated (again) and merged***

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xwalker

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A lot of people like to bid against themselves.

My question for people that want to give up a 1st round pick for Peterson is who are the Cowboys bidding against? AZ?

I hate the idea of giving up pick for Peterson. They didn't want to pay Murray 8M per but would pay Peterson AND give up a 1st round pick for him at the age of 30? That just makes no sense. Especially considering the depth at RB in this draft. If they just have to throw away picks, I would just trade up for the top RB in this draft.
 

WillieBeamen

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My question for people that want to give up a 1st round pick for Peterson is who are the Cowboys bidding against? AZ?

I hate the idea of giving up pick for Peterson. They didn't want to pay Murray 8M per but would pay Peterson AND give up a 1st round pick for him at the age of 30? That just makes no sense. Especially considering the depth at RB in this draft. If they just have to throw away picks, I would just trade up for the top RB in this draft.

Great post. Give me Gurley in a slight trade up than AP and losing our second rounder.
 

gimmesix

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This draft is much more similar to the 2008 draft with McFadden, CJ, Felix, Rice, Charles, Smith and Forte. That draft had similar RB depth. The one you chose was full of fail which matches your bias though. Wilson was barely a first round pick and coming out this year would have been a third rounder. The other two worse as yes Ajayi, Coleman, et al are better prospects.

No. I just went back to the last one that had first-round picks, as I said I did. And as I said, I don't believe there are many like that one where teams go 0-5.

Truth is we don't know how any draft is going to turn out. For various reason, this year's crop could end up resembling 2012 or it could end up resembling 2008 or something in between.

Let's say it does resemble '08 (for argument's sake),which it doesn't because five running backs went in the first round that year. You had McFadden, Jonathan Stewart, Jones, Rashard Mendenhall and Chris Johnson in the first, then Matt Forte and Ray Rice in the second.

That's a pretty good haul overall, except McFadden has only had three years out of seven where he's averaged more than 3.4 yards per carry. Felix put up good numbers when healthy for four years before dropping off, but never proved to be more than a change of pace. And Mendenhall has a 3.9 career average with 2 years out of 6 at 4.0 or better. So three out of the seven are not what we want. And Forte was below 4.0 his first two years, too.

Then since you conveniently brought up Charles, but didn't bring up the other third-round picks (and then called me biased), let's look at all of them. In addition to Charles, there was Kevin Smith and Steve Slaton, who each had one good year. So in that running back-heavy draft, we (who did miss on Jones for all intents and purposes) had essentially a 50-50 chance of getting a good back in the first three rounds.

Historically evidence shows that about 60 percent of the backs taken in the first two rounds should succeed and less than 40 percent of those taken in the third round ... so this draft is like all others in that some of these backs will turn out to be no good.

That doesn't mean I don't want to draft one, and I'd rather get one in those 60 percent groups than in the less than 40 percent group ... but if the chief argument against Peterson is that there is a chance he's washed up, I'd say there's a greater chance of us missing on the back we draft.

The only argument that I agree with on getting Peterson if he becomes available is what it would cost to get him (and I'm not talking about salary because that will work itself out). I'd give up a third or fourth because of the probability that he can still rush for more than 4 yards per carry (since he's done it every full year of his career -- had 3.6 average in the only game he played last year) and because it allows us to role the dice on players at other positions in the first two rounds. I wouldn't give up more than that because of the probability that at 30 that wall running backs hit isn't too far away.
 
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gimmesix

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My question for people that want to give up a 1st round pick for Peterson is who are the Cowboys bidding against? AZ?

I hate the idea of giving up pick for Peterson. They didn't want to pay Murray 8M per but would pay Peterson AND give up a 1st round pick for him at the age of 30? That just makes no sense. Especially considering the depth at RB in this draft. If they just have to throw away picks, I would just trade up for the top RB in this draft.

Can't agree with that. Gurley isn't a sure thing, either, because of his health. If you present me with a scenario where we either trade a first and third or fourth for Gurley or a first for Peterson, I'll take Peterson ... although I like neither scenario ... because I'd rather spend one pick on a back than two.

I don't think it's going to take a first or second to get Peterson and would probably offer a fourth (but be willing to ultimately go to a third). I want to reserve those top two picks for other positions if I'm trading for a back. If they want more than that, I might be willing to throw in a player with the fourth, but it wouldn't be one of our starters. It likely would be one of the backs, but possibly Claiborne if we end up spending our first on a corner. (Carr might be an option, though, if we do draft a corner in the first, but that would be a straight-up trade, no picks included.)
 

FuzzyLumpkins

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No. I just went back to the last one that had first-round picks, as I said I did. And as I said, I don't believe there are many like that one where teams go 0-5.

Truth is we don't know how any draft is going to turn out. For various reason, this year's crop could end up resembling 2012 or it could end up resembling 2008 or something in between.

Let's say it does resemble '08 (for argument's sake),which it doesn't because five running backs went in the first round that year. You had McFadden, Jonathan Stewart, Jones, Rashard Mendenhall and Chris Johnson in the first, then Matt Forte and Ray Rice in the second.

That's a pretty good haul overall, except McFadden has only had three years out of seven where he's averaged more than 3.4 yards per carry. Felix put up good numbers when healthy for four years before dropping off, but never proved to be more than a change of pace. And Mendenhall has a 3.9 career average with 2 years out of 6 at 4.0 or better. So three out of the seven are not what we want. And Forte was below 4.0 his first two years, too.

Then since you conveniently brought up Charles, but didn't bring up the other third-round picks (and then called me biased), let's look at all of them. In addition to Charles, there was Kevin Smith and Steve Slaton, who each had one good year. So in that running back-heavy draft, we (who did miss on Jones for all intents and purposes) had essentially a 50-50 chance of getting a good back in the first three rounds.

Historically evidence shows that about 60 percent of the backs taken in the first two rounds should succeed and less than 40 percent of those taken in the third round ... so this draft is like all others in that some of these backs will turn out to be no good.

That doesn't mean I don't want to draft one, and I'd rather get one in those 60 percent groups than in the less than 40 percent group ... but if the chief argument against Peterson is that there is a chance he's washed up, I'd say there's a greater chance of us missing on the back we draft.

The only argument that I agree with on getting Peterson if he becomes available is what it would cost to get him (and I'm not talking about salary because that will work itself out). I'd give up a third or fourth because of the probability that he can still rush for more than 4 yards per carry (since he's done it every full year of his career -- had 3.6 average in the only game he played last year) and because it allows us to role the dice on players at other positions in the first two rounds. I wouldn't give up more than that because of the probability that at 30 that wall running backs hit isn't too far away.

It was off the top of my head and I brought up Smith. Chill out. I said you biased your selection. I even admitted that I could do it too. That is kinda the point for all your arguing the minutiae.

Its not all about risk there is cost versus reward. Peterson is the top paid RB and whatever draft pick you cough up. The rookie will cost one pick and have the best cost controlled contract the NFL provides. If you miss on Peterson it hurts a lot more. You are also only getting peterson for a rental at that cost as he is going to have to renegotiate that contract as opposed to the rookie who is under complete team control for 4 years.
 

gimmesix

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Excellent post my friend..................so out of 8 running backs drafted in the first two rounds only 1 (Hill) has panned out.


This is the best argument I have seen as to why we should trade for Peterson.............a first ballot hall of famer or do we just play the lottery and hope we don't whiff like 7 of the 8 teams above did.


I prefer going with the known commodity myself.

There's definitely been better RB drafts than those presented. I just happened to look back at last year (since it was last year) and then went looking for the first draft I could find with first-round backs.

The year I skipped (2013) had no first-round backs, but had Giovanni Bernard, LeVeon Bell, Monte Ball, Eddie Lacy and Christine Michael in the second. Bernard's averaged more than 4 YPC both years but has only started 9 games. Lacy has averaged more than 4.0 both years. Bell got off to a rough start at 3.5 his first year before bursting onto the scene this year. Ball had a good first season as a backup, but wasn't doing well his second year. And Michael's numbers have been good when he played.

Out of those five, it would appear that two would have been what we were looking for, so the numbers are slightly better than in 2012 and 2014 combined but still show it's a roll of the dice with the numbers possibly not likely to come up in our favor.
 

gimmesix

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It was off the top of my head and I brought up Smith. Chill out. I said you biased your selection. I even admitted that I could do it too. That is kinda the point for all your arguing the minutiae.

Its not all about risk there is cost versus reward. Peterson is the top paid RB and whatever draft pick you cough up. The rookie will cost one pick and have the best cost controlled contract the NFL provides. If you miss on Peterson it hurts a lot more. You are also only getting peterson for a rental at that cost as he is going to have to renegotiate that contract as opposed to the rookie who is under complete team control for 4 years.

You assumed I biased my selection, but I didn't. I didn't purposely go looking for a bad year, but simply looked at last year and then looked for the next one down that actually had a first-round pick, which happened to be 2012. Yes, we could cherrypick, but the numbers don't lie, even in a 50-50 year for backs like the one you picked.

I don't know what we would have to pay Peterson, and honestly I do not care. If we missed on him we would simply draft a back next year, which would allow us to absorb whatever salary we gave him while working around that with restructures, etc. People get too caught up in numbers that don't matter. The fact that we can bring in Hardy and promise to pay him $13 million for one season should show that they don't. Dallas could have done that and done some funny math to keep Murray, too, if it wanted but had a top-end guarantee it was willing to pay Murray and Philly exceeded it.

I don't know if the top-end would be different with Peterson, but it wouldn't surprise me, if Dallas did acquire him, if the Cowboys converted most of his base for this year to bonus, spreading it across three to four years and then readdress the contract next year if he showed he hasn't hit that wall. That would be less guaranteed money than it offered Murray, while Peterson would still be getting everything he was supposed to earn this year. The cap hit would be around $4 million to $5 million this year.
 

gimmesix

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It was off the top of my head and I brought up Smith. Chill out. I said you biased your selection. I even admitted that I could do it too. That is kinda the point for all your arguing the minutiae.

You did bring up Smith (which I overlooked), so I'll give you that, but I don't consider arguing the facts to be arguing "minutiae."
 

Stash

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I would love to get away with sending Carr and a third rounder.....

I keep going back and forth, between nothing more then a 3rd ....or most likely a 1st. Minny, started pretty high imho. a 1st and a player...... get out of here.....

How about just Carr?

They're obviously starting at a ridiculously high asking price, but if this report is true, they are conceding for the first time that they are open to trading him.

Now it's just a matter of negotiating the price.
 

FuzzyLumpkins

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You did bring up Smith (which I overlooked), so I'll give you that, but I don't consider arguing the facts to be arguing "minutiae."

You started off talking about 4 RBs to describe the probability of this particular draft class. You are still missing my point about your cherry picking minutiae.

You conveniently disregard the historical career arc of RBs past age 27 which has been detailed extensively and have zero basis to support your claim about Petersons outlook as no one has worked him out in well over a year at this point. You are inserting wishful thinking for his prognosis and that is about the extent of it and then want to give up a top 100 pick on that basis.

I'll pass and VR has demonstrated through action that they don't value aging RB or paying age in general.
 

gimmesix

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Its not all about risk there is cost versus reward. Peterson is the top paid RB and whatever draft pick you cough up. The rookie will cost one pick and have the best cost controlled contract the NFL provides. If you miss on Peterson it hurts a lot more. You are also only getting peterson for a rental at that cost as he is going to have to renegotiate that contract as opposed to the rookie who is under complete team control for 4 years.

I realized I didn't quite address your point here. I do agree that the rookie would have a better contract and it would be good if he's one of the good backs taken to have him on a cheap deal for four years. If he's one of the bad ones, though, then it's back to the drawing board. That's the chance you take with the draft, though.

I do agree that we would be essentially renting Peterson and if we miss on him, it would be more costly, however, I'm not opposed to renting if the price is right. A third or fourth for Peterson just isn't any more of a risk than a first for Gurley or Gordon or second for Ajayi or Coleman based on draft percentages.
 

FuzzyLumpkins

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I realized I didn't quite address your point here. I do agree that the rookie would have a better contract and it would be good if he's one of the good backs taken to have him on a cheap deal for four years. If he's one of the bad ones, though, then it's back to the drawing board. That's the chance you take with the draft, though.

I do agree that we would be essentially renting Peterson and if we miss on him, it would be more costly, however, I'm not opposed to renting if the price is right. A third or fourth for Peterson just isn't any more of a risk than a first for Gurley or Gordon or second for Ajayi or Coleman based on draft percentages.

What draft percentages? The ones you've cobbled together here? I hope you are not serious. There are already detailed studies out there by Walterfootball and others that actually attempt comprehensive analysis and your evaluation of Peterson is based on absolutely nothing beyond wishful thinking that he will be the same at age 30 after a year off.
 

gimmesix

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You started off talking about 4 RBs to describe the probability of this particular draft class. You are still missing my point about your cherry picking minutiae.

If you want me to go back and look at every back in every draft class to prove my point, then go do it yourself.

I gave you historically data that shows probability numbers over and over while you've given nothing other than calling it minutiae. Even the one draft that you brought up, I showed that only 50 percent of the backs taken in the first three rounds turned out to be anything like what we're looking for.

I acknowledge that Peterson might be at a point where he hits the wall. We don't know that at this point. But historically data on him shows that he has averaged more than 4 yards per carry every year he's been in the league (except his one-game season last year.)

There is a pattern there as well as with the draft that give us some degree of reliability, but you don't like the patterns because they don't fit what you are trying to say.
 

BrassCowboy

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Wow. A 90 page thread for something that will never happen.

I agree.

I cannot think of any scenario where you can justify letting Murray go to just bring Peterson in considering cost in picks and money. We will be going for one in the draft.
 

gimmesix

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What draft percentages? The ones you've cobbled together here? I hope you are not serious. There are already detailed studies out there by Walterfootball and others that actually attempt comprehensive analysis and your evaluation of Peterson is based on absolutely nothing beyond wishful thinking that he will be the same at age 30 after a year off.

We've listed four drafts in this thread alone where only one of them in the first and second rounds had 50 percent of the backs or more have successful careers to date. The 60 percent numbers for the first round and second round and 40 percent for the third come from a study I saw that included 10 years of drafts at the position.

If you've seen better figures than that, please present them.
 

gimmesix

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What draft percentages? The ones you've cobbled together here? I hope you are not serious. There are already detailed studies out there by Walterfootball and others that actually attempt comprehensive analysis and your evaluation of Peterson is based on absolutely nothing beyond wishful thinking that he will be the same at age 30 after a year off.

Since you don't like my numbers, here are some "cobbled together" by a Kansas City fan who looked at 10 years of data on every position. It's even worse than what I've seen. (I believe the other 10-year study I looked at was through 2009.)

There is a very high bust rate for RBs. The first round gives you a 58% chance of finding a starter followed by 25% in the second, 16% in the third, 11% in the fourth, 9% in the fifth, 6% in the sixth and 0% in the 7th.

The link is here http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2015/2/20/8072877/what-the-statistics-tell-us-about-the-draft-by-round if you want to see it for yourself.

Now, I'm going to stop proving my point because I don't have time to keep researching data that you just refuse to believe anyway.
 
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