Aikman or Cunningham

The30YardSlant

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jackrussell said:
I never meant to infer that Ricky Watters played all those years I listed. (Is there a tongue in cheek emoticon here?)

The point, is the Eagles in fact, had some good offensive years, in deference to Heavy's assertation they had none, in which case, Randall must have done it all himself. Ricky's name was dropped as another example of someone who played with Cunningham.

BTW, how about some INT stats.

Just as an example of Cunningham's true force on that offense, in his MVP year of 1990, he led the team in:

Passing completions
Passing yards
Passing TDs
Rushing Yards
Rushing TDs
Rushing YPC
Total offense
Total TDs

He did the same in 1988, in 1989 he was 1 rushing TD short of doing it, was the first QB in the modern era of football to do that, and he did it twice (nearly 3 times). Coincidentally, those were the 3 best years the Eagles had while he was there.

Please explain to me how he wasnt that teams offense?
 

The30YardSlant

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Hoov said:
people like to say the cowboys had the greatest O line and thats why emmit or tro were so good. i say BS, the year emmitt held out the cowboys went 0-2, looks like emmitt had something to do with the running game. maybe the O line looked good because of emmitt, not the other way around. and dont forget troy getting sacked 11 times was it in one game against the eagles ? what about all those games i watched cunningham sit in the pocket for 5 or more seconds and then throw a 25 yard TD pass to a RB. cunningham did a lot of scrambling when he didnt have to, there were many games he had all day back there.

No, Dallas had the best O-Line ever. There's no debate at all about that.
 

Hoov

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HeavyHitta31 said:
No, Dallas had the best O-Line ever. There's no debate at all about that.

well, i dont now how you can ever judge that, i mean how are you gonna compare ?
 

The30YardSlant

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Hoov said:
well, i dont now how you can ever judge that, i mean how are you gonna compare ?

An O-line with 2 of the 5 best O-Linemen ever, a line that had all 5 members make the pro-bowl at some point in their careers, and a line that was unquestionably the biggest ever. Id say theres little room for doubt.
 

Hoov

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HeavyHitta31 said:
An O-line with 2 of the 5 best O-Linemen ever, a line that had all 5 members make the pro-bowl at some point in their careers, and a line that was unquestionably the biggest ever. Id say theres little room for doubt.

2 of the best 5 ever ? thats rather subjective. in the whole history of football, 2 of the best ever lineman played on the same team and the same years ?

were they the biggest ever? i honestly dont know but the skins had some really big lines.

the cowboys had some great drafts with Johnson as coach and amassed some very talented players, but i always have a hard time comparing who was the greatest ever. there are just too many intangibles. but the cowboys had everything come together for a few years and played some great football.

still, the whole point of your arguement was that aikman was not that great of a qb, just a good one surrounded by talented players on his team, well that is hardly fair considering he cant help it if there are other good players on his team. and furthermore anyone playing in the nfl is extremely talented, its just that when the right team chemistry is there and a few elite players are together a team dominates. aikman, irvin and emmitt were all elite players at their respective positions, novachek was more than solid and the team chemistry was excellent (and i give a lot of credit to the QB for creating chemistry on offense). the qb is the field general, having poise and maintaining control during the game goes a long way to keeping the team playing as a unit.

earlier you compared manning and brady. is peyton the better qb because he makes some great throws and carries his team. sometimes the best play on passing down is throw the ball away. trying to carry your team often results in INT's, patience is very important, if the play is not there, try again later. peyton seems to light it up during regular season, 5 td games and all, but deep into the playoffs he is throwing INT's trying to do too much. a good QB also knows his own limits.
 

cowboyeric8

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HeavyHitta31 said:
No offense to Troy, but if I had 2 of the 5 best O-Linemen ever and the best O-Line ever, the best RB ever, one of the top 10 best WRs ever, and one of the best TEs ever, I could put up good numbers too. Troy was on arguably the greatest football team EVER, he was great for our team, but he isnt better than Cunningham and doesnt deserve to be mentioned with the best ever. Winning 3 SBs doesnt make you a great player, though Troy was very good. However, Bradshaw won 4 SBs, and I doubt anyone will say he is even one of the 15-20 best QBs ever. Dan Marino never won a SB, yet he is considered by many the greatest ever.

Aikman had more poise, he got the job done and didnt make mistakes, but I cant remember one game in his entire career that he won by himself like Cunningham did almost every other week.

The Vikings who had pretty good o-line, Robert Smith would have been a great RB but wanted to become a priest, 2 Recievers in Carter and Moss of probably top 10 note worthy. Troy would have dominated. And watch any film of those Vikings teams most of Moss catchs were jump balls and shyty passes.

There is no way Cunningham wins 3 with the Cowboys, he was selfish and not a leader of Troy's Cowboys, not other QB leads them it Troy's team. And Michael even though I love him to death but I don't think doing drugs qualifies him to be "THE" leader of the team.

And on Troy's one game that he won by himself, there are alot, but I'll even pick one not in the glory days. 99 opening day Troy leads the team from 21 points down to win in OT. THERES YOUR ONE OF MANY!!!

I think we have found a secret Eagle homer who has a Cunningham obsession.

In final.
Cunningham the better RB.
Troy the better QB. Which is what the this thread is about.
 

cowboyeric8

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Hoov said:
the qb is the field general, having poise and maintaining control during the game goes a long way to keeping the team playing as a unit.

Exactly and there is no other QB that could of lead these Cowboys he was the ONE.
 

jackrussell

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Just as an example of Cunningham's true force on that offense, in his MVP year of 1990, he led the team in:

Passing completions
Passing yards
Passing TDs
Rushing Yards
Rushing TDs
Rushing YPC
Total offense
Total TDs

Gee,he was the starting QB, and he led the team in pass completions, passing TDS, & passing YDS?

Truly amazing! I would have bet my bottom dollar the TE led the team in pass completions. The FB led in passing TDs. The kicker led the team in pass yards.
 

YN1SCOTT

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How the hell can you guys say that Randell was better than TROY. I was born and raised in PHILLY and i got plenty of smack thrown my way (and still do) becuase of what the EAGLES used to do to DALLAS. But i watched every year without fail, Randell and the EAGLES break down by the end of the season and in the playoff's! Randell coudnt read a D if his life depended on it. Yeah TROY had number 22, 88, 84, 80 to run and throw to. But what do you say about Montana having number 80 or Bradshaw having the like of a hall of fame team around him. (And those COWBOYS from the 70's should be in the HAll along with those Steelers teams) Dont fault TROY for who he had in his prime, he did what was asked of him. Not to make mistakes and put the ball where it needed to be. As COWBOY fan raised in philly i see no way EVER, EVER EVER, that anyone calling themself a true COWBOY fan would say any EAGLES quarterback is better than ours (let alone TROY)!
 

dwmyers

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If we go back to the original question of the first post, which is, how good would have Cunningham and Aikman been if the two had been swapped, I tend to think that Cunningham would have been a very good fit within the Dallas system, and that Aikman may have struggled in Philadelphia. But IMO, the difference maker for Aikman was Norv Turner. The Q would be, had the two been switched, would there have been a Norv Turner in Philadelphia for Aikman? Aikman looked awful his first year in the league. He needed to grow into the role, and he needed appropriate mentorship.

The difference between the two is that Cunningham had enough raw athletic ability to keep things moving and to allow Buddy to survive as a coach. But I really don't know if Buddy then gave Cunningham the kinds of coaching tools necessary to improve to a Super Bowl level. That question was answered pretty straightforwardly in Dallas.

So, assuming Cunningham had been in Dallas, would exposure to a Norv Turner early in his career, when he still had a ton of raw talent, have turned Cunningham into a Super Bowl caliber quarterback? We'll never have an answer to that. He obviously didn't run into his difference maker as a coach and so has to be considered a terrific talent who never went all the way.

The best of the Cunningham-Philadelphia teams was the one that ended up losing in Chicago in the fog. Thing about those teams is the lack of a power running game. They relied on their receivers (and Mike Quick was damned good; too bad he lost it to injury) and Cunningham's elusiveness to solve their problems, and in a fog it's hard to throw. Take home lesson? You can't build a team for 90% of all situations, it will turn around and bite you 10% of the time.

In summary, I agree mostly with Brainpaint.

David.
 

Payton34Smith22

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cowboyeric8 said:
The Vikings who had pretty good o-line, Robert Smith would have been a great RB but wanted to become a priest, 2 Recievers in Carter and Moss of probably top 10 note worthy. Troy would have dominated. And watch any film of those Vikings teams most of Moss catchs were jump balls and shyty passes.

There is no way Cunningham wins 3 with the Cowboys, he was selfish and not a leader of Troy's Cowboys, not other QB leads them it Troy's team. And Michael even though I love him to death but I don't think doing drugs qualifies him to be "THE" leader of the team.

And on Troy's one game that he won by himself, there are alot, but I'll even pick one not in the glory days. 99 opening day Troy leads the team from 21 points down to win in OT. THERES YOUR ONE OF MANY!!!

I think we have found a secret Eagle homer who has a Cunningham obsession.

In final.
Cunningham the better RB.
Troy the better QB. Which is what the this thread is about.


That was what the thread was aboot! Great post!
 

BrAinPaiNt

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dwmyers said:
If we go back to the original question of the first post, which is, how good would have Cunningham and Aikman been if the two had been swapped, I tend to think that Cunningham would have been a very good fit within the Dallas system, and that Aikman may have struggled in Philadelphia. But IMO, the difference maker for Aikman was Norv Turner. The Q would be, had the two been switched, would there have been a Norv Turner in Philadelphia for Aikman? Aikman looked awful his first year in the league. He needed to grow into the role, and he needed appropriate mentorship.

The difference between the two is that Cunningham had enough raw athletic ability to keep things moving and to allow Buddy to survive as a coach. But I really don't know if Buddy then gave Cunningham the kinds of coaching tools necessary to improve to a Super Bowl level. That question was answered pretty straightforwardly in Dallas.

So, assuming Cunningham had been in Dallas, would exposure to a Norv Turner early in his career, when he still had a ton of raw talent, have turned Cunningham into a Super Bowl caliber quarterback? We'll never have an answer to that. He obviously didn't run into his difference maker as a coach and so has to be considered a terrific talent who never went all the way.

The best of the Cunningham-Philadelphia teams was the one that ended up losing in Chicago in the fog. Thing about those teams is the lack of a power running game. They relied on their receivers (and Mike Quick was damned good; too bad he lost it to injury) and Cunningham's elusiveness to solve their problems, and in a fog it's hard to throw. Take home lesson? You can't build a team for 90% of all situations, it will turn around and bite you 10% of the time.

In summary, I agree mostly with Brainpaint.

David.


Good stuff....you just can not take away the coaches in this situation and the idea of how the coaches saw the strengths of both offense and defense.

Buddy Ryan probably would never have gotten aikman the offensive structure, players or game plan he needed.
I have no doubt that Jimmy and Norv would have for Cunningham.

No matter how good or bad one believes either to be....to dismiss the talent around the QB and the HC in the equation really is the end result.

Cunnigham more then likely would have done well in Dallas...we seen what he did more of by himself....let's not also forget that he had a cannon for an arm.

Aikman IMO would have struggled in Philly, because Buddy Ryan did not give two squats about the offense IMO.
 

The30YardSlant

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HeavyHitta31 said:
Just as an example of Cunningham's true force on that offense, in his MVP year of 1990, he led the team in:

Passing completions
Passing yards
Passing TDs
Rushing Yards
Rushing TDs
Rushing YPC
Total offense
Total TDs

He did the same in 1988, in 1989 he was 1 rushing TD short of doing it, was the first QB in the modern era of football to do that, and he did it twice (nearly 3 times). Coincidentally, those were the 3 best years the Eagles had while he was there.

Please explain to me how he wasnt that teams offense?

Still waiting for someone to comment on this, as it shows clearly how much Cunningham dominated. And Russell, your attempt to rationalize was the dumbest thing I've ever read. " Of course the QB is gonna lead the team in passing yards, so haha I win". Idiotic.
 

The30YardSlant

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YN1SCOTT said:
As COWBOY fan raised in philly i see no way EVER, EVER EVER, that anyone calling themself a true COWBOY fan would say any EAGLES quarterback is better than ours (let alone TROY)!

This entire thread in a nutshell. Everyone here thinks that just because Cunningham was an Eagle, he cant possibly be better than Troy. Sorry, but this thread is just full of homerism. If you want to tell me Roger Staubach was better than Cunningham, I'll agree with you until I'm blue in the face. However, Troy was NOT a better FOOTBALL player than Randall Cunningham. The question who was the better player, not who won more or who was more clutch or who was more of a team player, its who was the better QB. Cunningham was simply a better, more talented player than Troy Aikman.
 

The30YardSlant

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jackrussell said:
Gee,he was the starting QB, and he led the team in pass completions, passing TDS, & passing YDS?

Truly amazing! I would have bet my bottom dollar the TE led the team in pass completions. The FB led in passing TDs. The kicker led the team in pass yards.

I believe this is jackrussell's way of telling us he knows he has lost. Dismissed.
 

The30YardSlant

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cowboyeric8 said:
The Vikings who had pretty good o-line, Robert Smith would have been a great RB but wanted to become a priest, 2 Recievers in Carter and Moss of probably top 10 note worthy. Troy would have dominated. And watch any film of those Vikings teams most of Moss catchs were jump balls and shyty passes.

There is no way Cunningham wins 3 with the Cowboys, he was selfish and not a leader of Troy's Cowboys, not other QB leads them it Troy's team. And Michael even though I love him to death but I don't think doing drugs qualifies him to be "THE" leader of the team.

And on Troy's one game that he won by himself, there are alot, but I'll even pick one not in the glory days. 99 opening day Troy leads the team from 21 points down to win in OT. THERES YOUR ONE OF MANY!!!

I think we have found a secret Eagle homer who has a Cunningham obsession.

In final.
Cunningham the better RB.
Troy the better QB. Which is what the this thread is about.

We are not talking about the Vikings, we are talking about his time with Philly, but just for my own personal enjoyment, Cunningham DID dominate and thus won an MVP. He took his team to the third best season in NFL history. He lost in the NFC title game because his defense *** up.

And to argue that Cunningham was selfish is to also argue he had any one to help him in Philly, which I just proved by his numbers that he didnt. So yes he always had the ball, but only because no one else was any good. And even Troy Aikman and Emmitt Smith have both said they consider Irvin the inspirational and emotional leader of that team. Troy wasnt as vocal as people make him out to be.

And actually, Rocket Ismail won that game against Washington, if you want to delve further it was the Skins defense that missed the coverage and left him wide open that won the game. Randall Cunningham won almost every game for his team because he was usually the one making ALL the plays. Troy was the bus driver, not the superstar playmaker.

And quite the contrary, I believe we have here a Cowboys homer who cant recognize true talent when its on a rivals team.
 

Hoov

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HeavyHitta31 said:
This entire thread in a nutshell. Everyone here thinks that just because Cunningham was an Eagle, he cant possibly be better than Troy. Sorry, but this thread is just full of homerism. If you want to tell me Roger Staubach was better than Cunningham, I'll agree with you until I'm blue in the face. However, Troy was NOT a better FOOTBALL player than Randall Cunningham. The question who was the better player, not who won more or who was more clutch or who was more of a team player, its who was the better QB. Cunningham was simply a better, more talented player than Troy Aikman.

Dude, dont take one post and say it is all homerism, i made some good points in my arguements. I cannot and will not agree with you here, but that is fine, you are entitled to your oppionion.
 

cowboyeric8

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HeavyHitta31 said:
We are not talking about the Vikings, we are talking about his time with Philly, but just for my own personal enjoyment, Cunningham DID dominate and thus won an MVP. He took his team to the third best season in NFL history. He lost in the NFC title game because his defense *** up.

And to argue that Cunningham was selfish is to also argue he had any one to help him in Philly, which I just proved by his numbers that he didnt. So yes he always had the ball, but only because no one else was any good. And even Troy Aikman and Emmitt Smith have both said they consider Irvin the inspirational and emotional leader of that team. Troy wasnt as vocal as people make him out to be.

And actually, Rocket Ismail won that game against Washington, if you want to delve further it was the Skins defense that missed the coverage and left him wide open that won the game. Randall Cunningham won almost every game for his team because he was usually the one making ALL the plays. Troy was the bus driver, not the superstar playmaker.

And quite the contrary, I believe we have here a Cowboys homer who cant recognize true talent when its on a rivals team.


huhchew- sorry I'm allergic to BULLSH**

And you do realize that there were more than just six points scored in overtime right? Just making sure. And just to point out he hit a full speed Rocket in stride.

Randall was not the better QB.

He has one thing on Troy mobility.
And you can't give me any other BS about Randall being more accurate or stronger because it just isn't true and I think you know that but favoring Randall for some odd reason.
 

Tio

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HeavyHitta31 said:
I believe this is jackrussell's way of telling us he knows he has lost. Dismissed.
Grasping at straws much?
 

2233boys

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In 1988 Randall had Chris Carter, Keith Byers, Keith Jackson, Mike Quick
in 1990 Randall had Keith Byers, Keith Jackson, Mike Quick

Not great talent by some none the less. If I am not mistaken I think often times Randall was the leading rusher for the Eagles...

1998 he had Chris Carter, Randy Moss,Jake Reed,Robert Smith Exceptional talent

So whoever said he didn't have Carter, Moss, and Smith when he won the MVP with the Vikes is wrong...

I take Aikman most accurate passer in History, however I do agree, Aikman wouldn't have had as much success without Irvin or Smith...
 
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