ARTICLE: Former Cowboy Mel Renfro has advice for S Roy Williams

[dcowboysfan76]

he just said before everyone has flaws, are you just not reading or just summarizing?

Just being sarcastic........

 

[Royal Laegotti]

What do you expect ..... the guys argument is that Roy is the best Strong Safety in the league ..... but he is average.



How the heck can someone take that seriously?

So do you think Roy is elite at coverage??? I certainly hope not, you'd then be showing your lack of football knowledge. Yes you can argue Roy is good at run defense and even a good blitzer, but coverage is something that a SS has to be consistently good at and Roy isn't. Sure he picks off a pass here and there but they get cancelled out by him getting burned for TD's and big gains... Plural!

 

[Royal Laegotti]

I agree too ...... all Strong Safeties have "coverage problems" ..... as do linebackers, and D-linemen.

 

[Royal Laegotti]

I know ........ how does every strong safety in the league make it in the NFL.

That's pathetic, not every SS in the league have footwork problems or have trouble locating the ball in the air, not to the extent Roy does.

 

[dcowboysfan76]

So do you think Roy is elite at coverage??? I certainly hope not, you'd then be showing your lack of football knowledge. Yes you can argue Roy is good at run defense and even a good blitzer, but coverage is something that a SS has to be consistently good at and Roy isn't. Sure he picks off a pass here and there but they get cancelled out by him getting burned for TD's and big gains... Plural!

Finally, someone comes out and agrees with me.........That's all I've been saying.....Roy is good at playing close to the line and makes plays close to the line which is why he was drafted........It has been mentioned by Parcells, Aikman, Moose, Madden, Jackson, Keyshawn, Young, Schlereth, etc I would take what they say over what some poster says..........that if Roy Williams is out in space he looks lost.....Not to mention he's consistently out of position because he gets caught looking in the backfield.....

Roy is good at the run, but not so good in coverage = average......what's so hard about the equation.....The guy keeps wanting examples, but IMO all he has to do is pay attention to the game which is why I didn't return that message.........

 

[Royal Laegotti]

From Roy:
Talking about the box: "It's cool to be back down there, but to be an all-around good player you have to be able to do a lot of things," he said. "I just can't be just one-minded about being in the box. You have to be able to cover too. I still have to worry about that and other aspects of the game."
One thing he insists he's not worried about is criticism, most of which has centered on his coverage problems.

Notice he said he has to worry......sounds like you're lacking a lil confidence there bruh....

Ferocious blows are Williams' signature statement. They're a big reason why the Dallas Cowboys gave him a $25.2 million contract extension last summer and why he's been invited to the last four Pro Bowls.

It's certainly not for his coverage skills.
Williams' weakness as a cover guy was exploited more than ever last season. Of the 25 touchdown passes thrown against Dallas, a good chunk came with No. 31 in the area, unable to prevent it. While Williams contends it was often a case of mistaken identity -- "I'm supposed to be doing one thing, but then I try to help out with something and it looks like I'm getting burned" -- it may not be a coincidence that new coach Wade Phillips plans to use his hard-hitting safety differently this season.
http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=247938

Hmmm, not only does he lack confidence in his coverage skills, but he also makes excuses and puts his teammates on blast.....Yep that Roy is a superstar isn't he?

Oh yeah, One thing to remember about Roy Williams...there's a REASON he's moved closer to the line and away from SS, because he can't cover and misses assignments.....but I guess you need examples right

Roy Williams has more talent than just about anybody at the position, but he's not maximizing his skills. He's not doing what it takes to make himself better, to make himself a championship calibre player. Everybody knows he's not the best cover guy, but can you honestly say in the past three years he's gotten ANY better? I'd submit to you he's gotten worse! and tackling, that's the worst part of his game. If he's straight on, he just tries to crush the guy, with no regard to wrapping up, and all those horse collar tackles you saw last year? What you don't see on the tv is the pathetic pursuit angle he took that put him behind the guy in the first place, where all he's got left is the desperation grab at the jersey or the absolute most basic thing you do before you go to make an open field tackle. Break down! anybody remember this concept from frikkin PEE WEE FOOTBALL??!?!!

Oh yeah, I forgot he's Super Roy!!

:laugh2: Bravo!!

 

[Royal Laegotti]

Finally, someone comes out and agrees with me.........That's all I've been saying.....Roy is good at playing close to the line and makes plays close to the line which is why he was drafted........It has been mentioned by Parcells, Aikman, Moose, Madden, Jackson, Keyshawn, Young, Schlereth, etc I would take what they say over what some poster says..........that if Roy Williams is out in space he looks lost.....Not to mention he's consistently out of position because he gets caught looking in the backfield.....

Roy is good at the run, but not so good in coverage = average......what's so hard about the equation.....The guy keeps wanting examples, but IMO all he has to do is pay attention to the game which is why I didn't return that message.........

You can't reason with'em. It seems they don't have since enough to pour piss outta a boot if the instructions were on the heel.

Just remember when they start the personal attacks you've won the arguement, they don't have anyway to logically debate you anymore at that point and they know it.

They see only what they want to see and not the truth for what it is, they are like sheep being led to a slaughter with a empty feed sack, at least on this subject, and possibly when it comes to Jethro as well. I'm waiting to make my personal judgement on the job he's done until after the season.

 

[dcowboysfan76]

You can't reason with'em. It seems they don't have since enough to pour piss outta a boot if the instructions were on the heel.

Just remember when they start the personal attacks you've won the arguement, they don't have anyway to logically debate you anymore at that point and they know it.

They see only what they want to see and not the truth for what it is, they are like sheep being led to a slaughter with a empty feed sack, at least on this subject, and possibly when it comes to Jethro as well. I'm waiting to make my personal judgement on the job he's done until after the season.

That's the only way it can be fair this year......You know, I wonder why the Pats continued to go 4 and 5 wide

 

[dallasfaniac]

Not to mention he's consistently out of position because he gets caught looking in the backfield.

You were the one quoting basic football knowledge all pee wee (Pop Warner knockoff) football players should know; exactly what is the Strong Safety's primary responsibility? Hint: First and foremost is to stop the run. You can't very well stop the run if you are not looking into the backfield.

The thing is, fans like you 'think' you know what you are seeing, but you really don't. You incorrectly analyzed the Lynch tackle and you probably thought the tip Roy had last week would have been a TD with a good QB. Like Wade said when talking to these same media experts you like to quote "You don't! You don't know what you are seeing."

 

[dcowboysfan76]

You were the one quoting basic football knowledge all pee wee (Pop Warner knockoff) football players should know; exactly what is the Strong Safety's primary responsibility? Hint: First and foremost is to stop the run. You can't very well stop the run if you are not looking into the backfield.

The thing is, fans like you 'think' you know what you are seeing, but you really don't. You incorrectly analyzed the Lynch tackle and you probably thought the tip Roy had last week would have been a TD with a good QB. Like Wade said when talking to these same media experts you like to quote "You don't! You don't know what you are seeing."

Ok, so now it's your turn right........Yes I know the responsibility of the SS is to stop the run, however when I stated that he gets caught looking in the backfield, I was pertaining to Roy staring at the QB while allowing a WR or TE to get behind him....I didn't over analyze the Lynch play, I just threw that out there as an example of Roy's tackling technique....Did you notice on the pic how he drug Lynch down? Not to mention, I believe on that play Roy came from the backside and had to drag Lynch down because Lynch made a cut to the outside where Newman tagged him....Come on now, don't try and make it like Roy does not over run plays....... In regards to the media experts I do believe they are past NFL QB's, LB's, WR's, RB's, and coaches....Wouldn't you think they would have first hand knowledge on Roy's abilities....Not to mention one who just coached the team....Parcells said on NFL Countdown, one of the keys to being successful against the Cowboys' D was Roy Williams out in space....

In regards to the play against the Vikes if that was a better QB, Roy was toast, no ifs, ands or buts about it........Roy has not improved much from the Roy that blew two TD's to Moss against the Commanders..........

 

[Royal Laegotti]

Ok, so now it's your turn right........Yes I know the responsibility of the SS is to stop the run, however when I stated that he gets caught looking in the backfield, I was pertaining to Roy staring at the QB while allowing a WR or TE to get behind him....I didn't over analyze the Lynch play, I just threw that out there as an example of Roy's tackling technique....Did you notice on the pic how he drug Lynch down? Not to mention, I believe on that play Roy came from the backside and had to drag Lynch down because Lynch made a cut to the outside where Newman tagged him....Come on now, don't try and make it like Roy does not over run plays....... In regards to the media experts I do believe they are past NFL QB's, LB's, WR's, RB's, and coaches....Wouldn't you think they would have first hand knowledge on Roy's abilities....Not to mention one who just coached the team....Parcells said on NFL Countdown, one of the keys to being successful against the Cowboys' D was Roy Williams out in space....

In regards to the play against the Vikes if that was a better QB, Roy was toast, no ifs, ands or buts about it........

Now I'm only going on one replay viewing but I don't even think Roy touched that ball, I think he did throw the receiver off just enough, FOR ONCE, that he dropped it. Just my take on that.

 

[AdamJT13]

Ok, since you need examples of his positioning.......The throw from TJ to Wade...Roy was toast

You can't even follow your own argument. You said Roy's horse collars were because he took "pathetic pursuit angles" and got out of position. And because you can't cite a single play when that has ever been the case, you cite a play when Roy broke up a pass? What kind of logic is that?

Roy would not be in the top 10 of any list of SS's over the last 10-20 years

That's debatable, but it's not what I said. I said put him in the league 10 years ago, and he'd also be one of the top strong safeties in the league at that time. Put him in the league 20 years ago, same thing. Whether he's among the top 10 over the past 10-20 years, he'd certainly be under consideration -- and that's not bad for a guy who has played only 5 1/2 years. Darren Woodson wouldn't be on the list after his first 5 1/2 seasons, either.

I only stated that there aren't any elite SS's in the league right now, but he's still average

And you're still wrong. There's no reasonable criteria under which Roy is an "average" strong safety.

Roy has more flaws than many.

And he more than makes up for them.

 

[dcowboysfan76]

You can't even follow your own argument. You said Roy's horse collars were because he took "pathetic pursuit angles" and got out of position. And because you can't cite a single play when that has ever been the case, you cite a play when Roy broke up a pass? What kind of logic is that?
What are you talking about? Here you go trying to twist the subject....again.....forget all the posts before now and concentrate on this....
My points are:
Roy is consistently out of position
Roy takes bad angles which lead to horse collars
He is not good in space and that makes him a liability in coverage
I agree with Renfro, Roy needs to work on his feet
Roy is average....if his coverage skills were better he would be above average




That's debatable, but it's not what I said. I said put him in the league 10 years ago, and he'd also be one of the top strong safeties in the league at that time. Put him in the league 20 years ago, same thing. Whether he's among the top 10 over the past 10-20 years, he'd certainly be under consideration -- and that's not bad for a guy who has played only 5 1/2 years. Darren Woodson wouldn't be on the list after his first 5 1/2 seasons, either.
My point to this has to do with the fact that you think Roy is great! At least Woody worked on his game and you could see improvement over his career.....Unfortunately it's the same with Roy


And you're still wrong. There's no reasonable criteria under which Roy is an "average" strong safety.
I am entitled to my opinion right??

And he more than makes up for them.

When was the last time Roy made a big play? He's known for the jaw breaking hits...."Have You Seen Her, Tell Me Have You Seen Her"....I only see him reaching and locking onto someone's jersey and pulling them down......bad feet cause that......I think Williams buys into the hype about his ability to make big plays (read: big hits) and doesn't concentrate on being a defensive back and play cautious when he has to.

 

[AdamJT13]

What are you talking about?

I'm talking about how you can't seem to support your argument with one single example, so you conveniently change your argument.

Roy is consistently out of position

Not any moreso than any other safety.

Roy takes bad angles which lead to horse collars

That has NEVER happened. Again, name ONE horse collar that was the result of Roy taking a "bad angle."

He is not good in space and that makes him a liability in coverage

Yeah, a "liability" who allows a low number of completions and a very low completion percentage while recording a high number of interceptions and passes defended. Lots of teams would love to have a liability like that.

Roy is average.

Not even close.

if his coverage skills were better he would be above average

If his coverage skills were better, he'd be the best safety in the NFL by far and a surefire Hall of Famer.

 

[dcowboysfan76]

I'm talking about how you can't seem to support your argument with one single example, so you conveniently change your argument.



Not any moreso than any other safety.



That has NEVER happened. Again, name ONE horse collar that was the result of Roy taking a "bad angle."



Yeah, a "liability" who allows a low number of completions and a very low completion percentage while recording a high number of interceptions and passes defended. Lots of teams would love to have a liability like that.



Not even close.



If his coverage skills were better, he'd be the best safety in the NFL by far and a surefire Hall of Famer.

Dude I keep telling you that all you have to do is look at any of the horse collar incidents....you will see that he's either over pursuing or taking bad angles......I don't have time to pull up youtube, or review previously recorded games.....I don't need to do that kind of research to debate the obvious...I'm not conveniently changing the subject, the proof is in the pudding....Have you ever noticed Roy Williams in pursuit? If not, watch and see....Roy has gotten by over time with his big hit ability....but like I said when was the last time you've seen that.....Teams have realized his deficiency and are taking advantage of it by doing things to keep him from his strength (the run)....Roy is a LB playing Safety with poor coverage skills when he's in space....I've already mentioned that statistics do not display the intangibles, so keep your stat argument to yourself.........Look at the obvious, he's almost one dimensional....

 

[AdamJT13]

Dude I keep telling you that all you have to do is look at any of the horse collar incidents....you will see that he's either over pursuing or taking bad angles.

I have looked at all of them, and you're flat wrong.

I don't have time to pull up youtube, or review previously recorded games.

You obviously DO have the time, since you've spent so much time posting in this thread.

Here's a suggestion -- take a break from this board. Spend a little time doing some actual research. Then come back when you have ONE example to support your claim.

Just one. That's all.

I've already mentioned that statistics do not display the intangibles, so keep your stat argument to yourself.

Ah yes, the old "ignore the facts" tactic. Brilliant move, considering that none of the facts support your claims.

 

[Royal Laegotti]

Yeah, a "liability" who allows a low number of completions and a very low completion percentage while recording a high number of interceptions and passes defended. Lots of teams would love to have a liability like that.

Now I'd like to know how you know the "low" number of completions he gives up, the "low" completion percentage he gives up, what is this like a ERA for SS's and where are all these interceptions at? Can you give me the stats for ALL that please? With fries!! I'm kinda hungry.

 

[dcowboysfan76]

I have looked at all of them, and you're flat wrong.



You obviously DO have the time, since you've spent so much time posting in this thread.

Here's a suggestion -- take a break from this board. Spend a little time doing some actual research. Then come back when you have ONE example to support your claim.

Just one. That's all.




Ah yes, the old "ignore the facts" tactic. Brilliant move, considering that none of the facts support your claims.

You are correct, I have spent too much time with this thread, and I do believe that I said that earlier.....However since I was off from work today I figured I'd indulge in the Cowboys blaze' blaze' aka "The Willy Bobo"......Also I find it hard to believe that you've looked at every horse collar Williams has committed, so you've lost some credibility IMO......

Ignore the facts? No pay attention to detail.......Why do you think there is a scheme in place to play Roy at LB and put a coverage player at SS?? Why would Wade do something like that?? Could it be that while moving a Pro Bowl strong safety to linebacker seems like heresy, but it really makes sense. Williams’ weakness, as everyone knows by now, is in coverage Why would Parcells point out the safeties gave up too many plays last year and Williams said, "everyone gives up plays, so what, Bill knows that".....first to speak is first to be guilty....Dude it's pointless....You win..... Roy is the best shutdown SS in the league....He's always in a good position, and he is no liability in space....He's the best rootin tootin tackler I've ever seen....It's good to see that he's been rewarded for that by having a rule named after him......Wow we've got our own "hack-a-Shaq"........

 

[dcowboysfan76]

Now I'd like to know how you know the "low" number of completions he gives up, the "low" completion percentage he gives up, what is this like a ERA for SS's and where are all these interceptions at? Can you give me the stats for ALL that please? With fries!! I'm kinda hungry.

I'm thirsty........It's amazing how so many people get caught up in stats....Stats are sometimes misleading, for example if a defensive player has 20 tackles in one game, it's usually a result of that team being pathetic on defense, but at the end of the year it's pointed out as........"so and so had a spectacular season, he had 320 total tackles"....etc.

Roy, often is found behind a play because of taking bad angles or being a step behind due to cheating up to the line and/or a bad read. He is then left in a position to make a tackle from behind which is harder to do.

 

[Royal Laegotti]

I'm thirsty........It's amazing how so many people get caught up in stats....Stats are sometimes misleading, for example if a defensive player has 20 tackles in one game, it's usually a result of that team being pathetic on defense, but at the end of the year it's pointed out as........"so and so had a spectacular season, he had 320 total tackles"....etc.

Roy, often is found behind a play because of taking bad angles or being a step behind due to cheating up to the line and/or a bad read. He is then left in a position to make a tackle from behind which is harder to do.

Sad thing about Roy is I think he could actually be elite instead of hyped-elite which is what he is now if he'd just put in the extra work and effort to do so or do whatever it takes, besides roids of course. He does have the talent to be a HoF type safety like Ronnie Lott but just not the drive.

These guys who come on here and act like Roy is one of the greatest safetys in the last 10 or 20 years can't tell me that he does put in extra work or make extra effort to be great or else we'd be seeing it on the field but he's still getting nuked nearly every game or just plain being ineffective.

It's my opinion that Roy is just satisfied with the kind of player he is and that's sad if indeed I'm correct in my opinion. Look at Tom Brady for example, as great as he is, he still isn't satisfied with the kind of player he is, he still thinks he can and wants to get better and works toward perfection. I've never seen that kind of attitude in Roy, especially when he indirectly blames his teammates when he gets burned, like he was trying to cover for them. Sure Roy! That's a losers attitude and not a good leaders attitude.IMO