Bradie James - Getting Better?

[Stautner]

You implied something. I attacked it. You expressly stated what I thought you were implying. Game over, kiddo.

You dispute what you did at the time by quoting something that was said later?

Wow - you are really bad at this.

What you wrote initially is what it is - what was said later is a separate issue.

We were talking about my intitial post and your initial response only - you can't claim what you or I said in those initial posts are somehow changed by later posts.

You can pat yourself on the back all you want - it still doesn't change the fact that you picked a fight initially based on something I didn't even say.

Huh? Ware is the "starting" nickel DE. He's not a backup. What are you talking about?.

LOL - you are a Madden junkie aren't you - that's where you learn your football.

Football to you is all symantics and terminology - you try to impress folks with your knowlegde based on what you read, all the while having no clue about the realities of football.

Besides, you are missing the point (or intentionally avoiding it) - which is that the role that you are claiming is only a nicle role, is not just a nickle role. Ware plays in that kind of role on any given down - not just nickle situations.

No, Ware only lines up on the LOS with his hand in the dirt in nickel packages. Where you got that I said he only rushes on 3rd downs is beyond me..

Wrong again buckwheat - pay attention as Ware's playing time increases.

No, I simply stated that Carp didn't play OLB and you began to argue with me claiming that nickel DE = OLB..

I never said DE -= OLB ... once again you are trying to argue over what I didn't say. I said the OLB moves up and plays in a more traditional DE role at times, and that is just a common thing for a 3-4 OLB to do. It's not just a nickle occurance as you claim.

He played the role manned by the OLB - whether you call it "nickle DE" or OLB .... the fact is that it is the role played by the guy listed as OLB, so he didn't just play the role typically manned by the ILB.

Again, you are trying to use symantics to divert attention away from the fact that Carp spent time playing in Ware's normal role rather than James.

Yes, he was playing nickel DE. Sometimes Ware plays nickel DE..

So he DID play the role typically manned by a player listed as OLB ...... regardless of what you call it - he played that role, which isn't ONLY a nickle role.

He was playing nickel DE. Sometimes OLBs play it. Sometimes 3-4 DEs play it. Sometimes ILBs play it (see Carpenter and Ayodele, who has lined up there). It's not just OLBs.

In other words, playing a position that is sometimes played by OLBs does not make him an OLB. Surely you can see how silly this line of reasoning is.

Boy, you are so lost in symantics and your need to put a clear definition on each role that you can't see the light.

That's how I know you are merely educated in fooball from books.

You would never understand monsterbacks or other hybrid type roles because they can't fall into a strict definition that you can understand.

And this is your problem with the OLB in the 3-4, it's a hybrid position that you can't pigeonhole, so you are confused.

 

[theogt]

You dispute what you did at the time by quoting something that was said later?

Wow - you are really bad at this.

What you wrote initially is what it is - what was said later is a separate issue.

We were talking about my intitial post and your initial response only - you can't claim what you or I said in those initial posts are somehow changed by later posts.

You can pat yourself on the back all you want - it still doesn't change the fact that you picked a fight initially based on something I didn't even say.

Like I said, you implied something; I inferred it; then you later expressly stated it.

You're simply backpedaling now. You're trying to say you didn't say what you've spent hours arguing for.

LOL - you are a Madden junkie aren't you - that's where you learn your football.

Football to you is all symantics and terminology - you try to impress folks with your knowlegde based on what you read, all the while having no clue about the realities of football.

I don't play Madden. Haven't played a version of it in nearly a decade.

Besides, you are missing the point (or intentionally avoiding it) - which is that the role that you are claiming is only a nicle role, is not just a nickle role. Ware plays in that kind of role on any given down - not just nickle situations.

No, he doesn't. It's a different position. It lines up differently. It has different responsibilities. The starter in the position has different players backing him up. It's a completely different position.

Wrong again buckwheat - pay attention as Ware's playing time increases.

What are you talking about? Can you name a single play in '06 (excluding the Lions game and goalline packages) where lined up on the LOS with his hand in the dirt and it wasn't a nickel package? Just one play?

He played the role manned by the OLB - whether you call it "nickle DE" or OLB .... the fact is that it is the role played by the guy listed as OLB, so he didn't just play the role typically manned by the ILB.

Again, you are trying to use symantics to divert attention away from the fact that Carp spent time playing in Ware's normal role rather than James.

It's not semantics. It's a different position. It lines up on a different position on the field in a different stance and has different responsibilities. It's not the same position.

So he DID play the role typically manned by a player listed as OLB ...... regardless of what you call it - he played that role, which isn't ONLY a nickle role.

Yes, it's only a nickel role. And simply because sometimes an OLB plays the position doesn't make him an OLB.

Boy, you are so lost in symantics and your need to put a clear definition on each role that you can't see the light.

That's how I know you are merely educated in fooball from books.

You would never understand monsterbacks or other hybrid type roles because they can't fall into a strict definition that you can understand.

And this is your problem with the OLB in the 3-4, it's a hybrid position that you can't pigeonhole, so you are confused.

Again, it's not just semantics. It's a different position with a different alignment in a different stance with different responsibilities. Those are all major differences. It's not just a difference in name only.

 

[blindzebra]

You know what's funny?

A while back Theogt argued semantics over Roy lining up at nickel LB and he basically argued the opposite side he's arguing now.

It's really simple when you are in a 3-4 the OLB usually stays in when you switch to a nickel...do they suddenly stop being LBs when they put a hand on the ground? No, but they are playing the role of a DE in a 4 man line.

Just like Roy doesn't stop being a safety when he moves into that LB spot, but he's playing the LBs role when he's there.

So it really doesn't matter how you say it, or what you call it...the results are the same.

Now carry on.

 

[theogt]

You know what's funny?

A while back Theogt argued semantics over Roy lining up at nickel LB and he basically argued the opposite side he's arguing now.

It's really simple when you are in a 3-4 the OLB usually stays in when you switch to a nickel...do they suddenly stop being LBs when they put a hand on the ground? No, but they are playing the role of a DE in a 4 man line.

Just like Roy doesn't stop being a safety when he moves into that LB spot, but he's playing the LBs role when he's there.

So it really doesn't matter how you say it, or what you call it...the results are the same.

Now carry on.

No, actually my point then was the same as it is now.

This is an example of me holding a consistent position, not some contradiction. Nice try, though, and good memory.

Roy isn't playing a "linebacker's role." He's playing a "dime backer's role." It's a completely different position with different responsibilities. If you don't believe me, check out Wade Phillips's playbook. It's posted online. You can see the different plays with different responsibilities for the different positions. Nickel linebacker is not the same thing as dime backer.

 

[Stautner]

You know what's funny?

A while back Theogt argued semantics over Roy lining up at nickel LB and he basically argued the opposite side he's arguing now.

It's really simple when you are in a 3-4 the OLB usually stays in when you switch to a nickel...do they suddenly stop being LBs when they put a hand on the ground? No, but they are playing the role of a DE in a 4 man line.

Just like Roy doesn't stop being a safety when he moves into that LB spot, but he's playing the LBs role when he's there.

So it really doesn't matter how you say it, or what you call it...the results are the same.

Now carry on.

Thank you - this is a nice summary.

It's like I said, he is so caught up in symantics and having to clearly define and name every role separately so that he can understand it, he has no concept of hybrid players who play in multiple capacitites.

 

[Vintage]

Ware lines up as the nickle DE. He may be an OLB, but when he lines up as a DE in that formation, he is a DE on that play.

Yes, he gets listed as an OLB on roster pages. Because that's his position.

But on that particular play, he was lined up as a DE.

 

[YosemiteSam]

I think the difference between thier abilities to stop the run is greatly overstated. James' play against the run is marginally better than Carpenter's...at least compared to Carp's coverage advantages over James.

I highly disagree with this. Run stopping is not a weakness of Bradie. It is on the other hand a weakness of Carpenter. If it wasn't a weakness for Carpenter, Bradie would have already been delegated to a backup role.

 

[theogt]

Thank you - this is a nice summary.

It's like I said, he is so caught up in symantics and having to clearly define and name every role separately so that he can understand it, he has no concept of hybrid players who play in multiple capacitites.

No, I understand the roles. In fact, I understand why they're different. And it's that difference that gives them different names.

Answer this: Hatcher plays nickel DE, which is the same exact position that Ware plays in the nickel. Does that make Hatcher an OLB?

 

[theogt]

I highly disagree with this. Run stopping is not a weakness of Bradie. It is on the other hand a weakness of Carpenter. If it wasn't a weakness for Carpenter, Bradie would have already been delegated to a backup role.

I don't think it's a weakness for Carpenter. During his time at OLB he was fine against the run. It was his pass-rushing that was the problem.

 

[Stautner]

No, actually my point then was the same as it is now.

This is an example of me holding a consistent position, not some contradiction. Nice try, though, and good memory.

Roy isn't playing a "linebacker's role." He's playing a "dime backer's role." It's a completely different position with different responsibilities. If you don't believe me, check out Wade Phillips's playbook. It's posted online. You can see the different plays with different responsibilities for the different positions. Nickel linebacker is not the same thing as dime backer.

By the way - this enhances my argument. Roy will be playing closer to the line frequently in RUN situations .... much of the reason is to help stop the RUN ....... not just in dime situatioins.

It isn't a matter of him switching back and forth between two separate and distinct positions, it's just the way we will use our SS this year to take advantage of Roy's strengths.

 

[blindzebra]

No, actually my point then was the same as it is now.

This is an example of me holding a consistent position, not some contradiction. Nice try, though, and good memory.

Roy isn't playing a "linebacker's role." He's playing a "dime backer's role." It's a completely different position with different responsibilities.

I already showed you the flaws in that argument, so let's not repeat it.

The facts are:

Then you said that just because Roy is lined up in the hole an ILB left he's still playing safety.

Now you are saying that just because Ware or Carp fill the spot a DE would be in in a 4 man line, they are no longer LBs but DEs.

No way, no how is that a consistent argument.

 

[Stautner]

No, I understand the roles. In fact, I understand why they're different. And it's that difference that gives them different names.

Answer this: Hatcher plays nickel DE, which is the same exact position that Ware plays in the nickel. Does that make Hatcher an OLB?

Hatcher is a pass rushing replacement for other D-linemen. He does not have multiple roles.

The OLB in our 3-4 does have multiple roles. He plays down in a 3 point stance (like a 4-3 DE) at times, stands up at the LOS at times, falls back like a traditional LB at times.

In other ords, the difference is that Hatcher is a pass rushing specialist, and Ware is a hybrid player with multiple roles.

But that is too difficult for you to understand, so you have to pigeohole each role into something separate and distinct, when the reality is that all the roles are just demands of the position "OLB" in Phillips 3-4.

 

[theogt]

I already showed you the flaws in that argument, so let's not repeat it.

The facts are:

Then you said that just because Roy is lined up in the hole an ILB left he's still playing safety.

Now you are saying that just because Ware or Carp fill the spot a DE would be in in a 4 man line, they are no longer LBs but DEs.

No way, no how is that a consistent argument.

The nickel linebacker and dimebacker positions are completely different positions with different responsibilities. Check out Wade Phillips's playbook. It's posted online. You can see the different plays with different responsibilities for the different positions. Nickel linebacker is not the same thing as dimebacker. Simply because they line up in the same general area of the field doesn't make them the same position.

And by stautner's reasoning, if they were the same position, that would make Bradie James a safety because he played the same position a safety sometimes played!!! Shocking isn't it? Bradie James a safety!?!?

 

[tomson75]

I highly disagree with this. Run stopping is not a weakness of Bradie. It is on the other hand a weakness of Carpenter. If it wasn't a weakness for Carpenter, Bradie would have already been delegated to a backup role.

First off, I never said it was a weakness of James...but thanks for implying that I did...i think its pretty clear that its the only reason he still owns the starting role.

I just happen to think that Carpenter's inability is greatly exaggerated...as you've just done yourself. He was damn effective at it in college...and hasn't been given the chance to do it much in the pros. I think if and when he gets that chance...he'll prove you wrong.

Carpenter's versatility trumps James' marginal advantage at playing the run (if it even exists) on first and second downs IMO>

 

[theogt]

Hatcher is a pass rushing replacement for other D-linemen. He does not have multiple roles.

The OLB in our 3-4 does have multiple roles. He plays down in a 3 point stance (like a 4-3 DE) at times, stands up at the LOS at times, falls back like a traditional LB at times.

In other ords, the difference is that Hatcher is a pass rushing specialist, and Ware is a hybrid player with multiple roles.

But that is too difficult for you to understand, so you have to pigeohole each role into something separate and distinct, when the reality is that all the roles are just demands of the position "OLB" in Phillips 3-4.

Wait a second. So when they're playing the exact same position they're playing different positions?

This truly does blow my mind.

 

[blindzebra]

No, I understand the roles. In fact, I understand why they're different. And it's that difference that gives them different names.

Answer this: Hatcher plays nickel DE, which is the same exact position that Ware plays in the nickel. Does that make Hatcher an OLB?

Well, since Wade loves the zone blitz, there will be times he will drop into the short zone and play the "role" of LB.

 

[blindzebra]

The nickel linebacker and dimebacker positions are completely different positions with different responsibilities. Check out Wade Phillips's playbook. It's posted online. You can see the different plays with different responsibilities for the different positions. Nickel linebacker is not the same thing as dimebacker. Simply because they line up in the same general area of the field doesn't make them the same position.

And by stautner's reasoning, if they were the same position, that would make Bradie James a safety because he played the same position a safety sometimes played!!! Shocking isn't it? Bradie James a safety!?!?

This is like arguing with a rock, I'm done...nobody can be this dense.:bang2:

 

[theogt]

Well, since Wade loves the zone blitz, there will be times he will drop into the short zone and play the "role" of LB.

Holy smoke! Marcus Spears is an ILB!!!!!!1!!11!11eleven!!!

 

[theogt]

This is like arguing with a rock, I'm done...nobody can be this dense.:bang2:

I don't blame you. Most people do give up when they've been proven wrong. It's better than to have me continue to prove you wrong.

 

[blindzebra]

Whatever helps you get to sleep Sparky.