Bradie James - Getting Better?

[YosemiteSam]

Canty made that play, James just finished him off.

Canty was where he should have been and James was also where he should have been.

 

[theogt]

so you are saying that Ware is actually 70% DE and 30% OLB ......... wonder why they list him at LB?

What are you talking about? He plays nickel DE on some 3rd downs and some 4th downs. That's hardly 70% of the time.

The fact is that moving up and playing like a 4-3 DE in some situations is what an OLB does in a 3-4. Ware has done it A LOT for 2 years now, and will probably do more of it this year in our new, more agressive scheme.

And sometimes the 3-4 DE plays nickel DE. It's not just the OLB that does it. Playing nickel DE does not make someone an OLB.

You apparently have never realized that Ware (or Carpenter the other night) don't come in to replace Spears or Canty, they merely move closer to the line to rush the passer.

Huh? It's a nickel package. They're not replacing anyone or moving up. It's an entirely different personnel package/lineup than our base 3-4.

You also apparently never realized that Hatcher does not come in to play the role Carpenter played the other night (as a fourth pass rusher), he comes in to replace one of the original 3 down linemen - the ones that are always there on the line, regardless of whether the OLB rushes from a 2 point stance, a thre point stance or falls back in coverage.

Hatcher, who does not play OLB, plays DE in the nickel package as well. Do you have any idea what a nickel package is? I swear you sound more ignorant by the day.

Yes, what Carp was doing is a DE like role. but, again, that's just part of the role of an OLB in a 3-4 defense. It's what Ware has been doing for 2 years.

It's a nickel DE role. It's not "DE like." It is a DE role. Sometimes Hatcher plays it. Sometimes Ware and Ellis play it. However, playing nickel DE does not make someone a 3-4 OLB.

Your apparent antiquated notion of LB's playing 3 yards back, plugging holes and going back in coverage does not apply - the 3-4 OLB is a hybrid player.

What on earth are you talking about? What post are you referring to? You've completely lost me here.

 

[Stautner]

Hatcher plays DE in the nickle package - not as an EXTRA lineman, but as a replacement for one of the other linemen who isn't as good a pass rusher.

Hatcher does not replace one of our OLBers to come in a rush the passer as a DE.

Our OLB's stay in the game and move up to the LOS.

It is as a DE - like in a 4-3, but he is still an OLB playing on the LOS.

You seem to think the only time Ware rushes from the LOS is on 3rd and 4th down ...... boy, you aren't paying attention.


The OLBers are the primary pass rushers in the 3-4, Ware can move down and rush the QB at any time - the idea, especially now that we have Phillips, is to bring pressure consistently, not just on passing downs.

Phillips has even said that Ware will have fewer coverage responsibilities this year, and will be spending the majority of his time attacking ...... and not from 3 yards deep.


The funny thing is that for the most part we really are saying the same thing in terms of what the OLB does - you just want to say he transforms into a DE, and I say he is still an OLB who is a hybrid player who is called on to move to the LOS and rush the passer frequently.

The one thing we do disagree on is that you seem to think the role that HAtcher plays on passing downs is the same role that Carp played the other day or that Ware plays when he lines up on the LOS, and that's just not true. The role may be similar on some plays, but his role is constant whereas the OLB is a hybrid with a wider variety of duties.

 

[theogt]

Hatcher plays DE in the nickle package - not as an EXTRA lineman, but as a replacement for one of the other linemen who isn't as good a pass rusher.

Hatcher does not replace one of our OLBers to come in a rush the passer as a DE.

Our OLB's stay in the game and move up to the LOS.

It is as a DE - like in a 4-3, but he is still an OLB playing on the LOS.

You're absolutely clueless.

When we switch from 3-4 to nickel and Hatcher is in the game, he is not replacing a defensive lineman. Here are a couple theoretical packages:

3-4 Package:
Hatcher - Ferguson - Canty
Spencer - James - Ayodele - Ware

Nickel Package A:
Hatcher - Ferguson - Canty - Ware
James - Ayodele

Nickel Package B:
Carpenter - Ferguson - Canty - Ware
James - Ayodele

Nickel Package C:
Spencer - Fergson - Canty - Ware
James - Ayodele

As you can see, there's no difference between Hatcher playing nickel DE and Capenter or Spencer playing nickel DE.

It is more common for an 3-4 OLB to play nickel DE than a 3-4 DE to play nickel DE because 3-4 DE tend to be too big (300+ pounds). However, that is not always the case, as seen with Jason Hatcher, who plays 3-4 DE and nickel DE.

However, saying that because someone plays nickel DE, he is an OLB is just stupid. I mean, it really is stupid.

You seem to think the only time Ware rushes from the LOS is on 3rd and 4th down ...... boy, you aren't paying attention.

No, I don't think that. I have no idea what you're talking about.

The OLBers are the primary pass rushers in the 3-4, Ware can move down and rush the QB at any time - the idea, especially now that we have Phillips, is to bring pressure consistently, not just on passing downs.

Ok, what's your point? What does this have to do with anything?

Phillips has even said that Ware will have fewer coverage responsibilities this year, and will be spending the majority of his time attacking ...... and not from 3 yards deep.

That's true. But why are you bringing this up? This has nothing to do with the conversation we're having.

Are you drunk?

The funny thing is that for the most part we really are saying the same thing in terms of what the OLB does - you just want to say he transforms into a DE, and I say he is still an OLB who is a hybrid player who is called on to move to the LOS and rush the passer frequently.

No, we're not saying the same thing. You're saying the wrong thing.

The one thing we do disagree on is that you seem to think the role that HAtcher plays on passing downs is the same role that Carp played the other day or that Ware plays when he lines up on the LOS, and that's just not true. The role may be similar on some plays, but his role is constant whereas the OLB is a hybrid with a wider variety of duties.

A nickel DE is a nickel DE. The position doesn't change simply because Hatcher is playing it rather than Ware.

 

[Stautner]

You're absolutely clueless.

When we switch from 3-4 to nickel and Hatcher is in the game, he is not replacing a defensive lineman. Here are a couple theoretical packages:

3-4 Package:
Hatcher - Ferguson - Canty
Spencer - James - Ayodele - Ware

Nickel Package A:
Hatcher - Ferguson - Canty - Ware
James - Ayodele

Nickel Package B:
Carpenter - Ferguson - Canty - Ware
James - Ayodele

Nickel Package C:
Spencer - Fergson - Canty - Ware
James - Ayodele

As you can see, there's no difference between Hatcher playing nickel DE and Capenter or Spencer playing nickel DE.

It is more common for an 3-4 OLB to play nickel DE than a 3-4 DE to play nickel DE because 3-4 DE tend to be too big (300+ pounds). However, that is not always the case, as seen with Jason Hatcher, who plays 3-4 DE and nickel DE.

However, saying that because someone plays nickel DE, he is an OLB is just stupid. I mean, it really is stupid.

No, I don't think that. I have no idea what you're talking about.

Ok, what's your point? What does this have to do with anything?

That's true. But why are you bringing this up? This has nothing to do with the conversation we're having.

Are you drunk?

No, we're not saying the same thing. You're saying the wrong thing.

A nickel DE is a nickel DE. The position doesn't change simply because Hatcher is playing it rather than Ware.

First - let me backtrack to what started all this. Here is my quote and your response:


STAUTNER: But considering the Ellis situation, and considering that Carpenter was most noticeable in the Indy game rushing the passer from the outside, I have to think that is not going to happen in the near future.

I could possibly see Carpenter playing OLB on 1st and 2nd down, then moving to the middle and replacing James on passing downs with Spencer coming in to fill the OLB spot as a pass rusher.


THE OGT: He played 3rd string nickel DE. Other than that he played ILB. He didn't play any OLB that I noticed.


AS you will notice, I didn't even say Carp was playing OLB - I merely said he was rushing the passer from the outside - which he was. He was lined up wide and rushing the passer.

In other words - you irrationally went out looking for a fight.




Second, Ware and the other OLB's don't ONLY set up on the LOS scrimmage and rush the passer in nickle situations - THAT'S WHERE YOUR MISTAKE LIES.

They may do it on first down in an otherwise standard defense - they may do it on second down - they may do it in obvious pasing downs or an downs that could be either run or pass, or even on short yardage if the team feels like the offense my pass.

That's just part of what 3-4 OLBers do.

 

[Seven]

The beauty of this banter is, it sounds like a HC and an OC on opposing teams trying to figure our defense out.........................

 

[theogt]

First - let me backtrack to what started all this. Here is my quote and your response:


STAUTNER: But considering the Ellis situation, and considering that Carpenter was most noticeable in the Indy game rushing the passer from the outside, I have to think that is not going to happen in the near future.

I could possibly see Carpenter playing OLB on 1st and 2nd down, then moving to the middle and replacing James on passing downs with Spencer coming in to fill the OLB spot as a pass rusher.


THE OGT: He played 3rd string nickel DE. Other than that he played ILB. He didn't play any OLB that I noticed.


AS you will notice, I didn't even say Carp was playing OLB - I merely said he was rushing the passer from the outside - which he was. He was lined up wide and rushing the passer.

In other words - you irrationally went out looking for a fight.

Stop trying to backpedal. Here's a direct quote from you:

I'll let you in on a secret (at least to you) ....... the OLB, whether Ware or Carp or Spencer, in some situations move up to the LOS in a role very much like a 4-3 DE in some situations. He isn't replacing Spears or Canty or HAtcher or Ratliff, he is merely an OLB who moves closer to the LOS .......that's what is happening.

Just give up. You don't have a chance.

Second, Ware and the other OLB's don't ONLY set up on the LOS scrimmage and rush the passer in nickle situations - THAT'S WHERE YOUR MISTAKE LIES.

They may do it on first down in an otherwise standard defense - they may do it on second down - they may do it in obvious pasing downs or an downs that could be either run or pass, or even on short yardage if the team feels like the offense my pass.

That's just part of what 3-4 OLBers do.

Are you making this up as you go? Where did I say that a 3-4 OLB doesn't rush the passer on first or second downs?

 

[STSINAZ]

our defense didnt look great to me...even took the 1st string a little bit to stop their 2nd string offense

 

[zeromaster]

The beauty of this banter is, it sounds like a HC and an OC on opposing teams trying to figure our defense out.........................

Beauty is in the bandwidth of the beholder.

This thread has gotten more tangled as it has grown. I tend to agree with superpunk that the purpose of the OP might have been less of an objective discussion and more of a rant, subtly as it may have been cast at first.

It appears theo has already concluded James hasn't improved, regardless of playing weight, and possibly won't. It would be a different story maybe if the regular season started next week, but the calendar says otherwise.

 

[Stautner]

Stop trying to backpedal. Here's a direct quote from you:

Just give up. You don't have a chance.

There's a nice dodge - you are the one backpeddlinig away from what you originally jumped on by quoting something after the fact ..... sorry, I have the qotes and times, so you don't have a chance on this particular point. You irrationally started this by picking a fight based on something I didn't even say.

Now, after the fact I did say what you quoted, and I don't mind discussing that. But on this point you lose.

You are merely doing what you always do. When you lose a point you divert to something else and pretend that it applies.

Are you making this up as you go? Where did I say that a 3-4 OLB doesn't rush the passer on first or second downs?

You have been ranting on and on and on about what Carp did Thursday being a deviation from normal OLB duties because it was a nickle situation and therefore he was acting as a back-up DE rather than as an OLB. You have also said that when Ware does it it is for the same reason, and he too is merely being a backup DE.

I'm telling you that Ware lines up that way on any given down - not just passing downs or nickle situations. That's part of what his responsibility is in Phillips 3-4 defense. The OLB is responsible for rushing the passer on ANY given down, and it could be from a 3 point stance, a standing position or blitzing from a more traditional LB role ............


HERE'S THE BIG QUESTION THOUGH:

This started when you disputed my assertion that Carp was more noticeable rushing from the outside Thursday (few would dispute that - although you twisted my words to do so).

The point, in your mind, was that Carp's only actual LB play was as the ILB, and that he didn't fill any OLB duties in the game.

SO HERE'S THE QUESTION ....... even if you call him a nicle DE, wasn't Carp filling the same role that Ware would have been had Ware still been in the game at that point?

IF so, then wasn't he filling the role that a player nomally listed as an OLB would have filled?

 

[theogt]

our defense didnt look great to me...even took the 1st string a little bit to stop their 2nd string offense

Assuming their 2nd string offense played the 2nd and 3rd quarters they had a total of 57 yards with drives ending in 3 punts, a turnover on downs, and an interception.

I'm not saying it's some great accomplishment, but it ain't bad that's for sure.

 

[DBoys]

Check out the 28-yard pass to Harrison. Not saying your ILB should prevent that play completely, but I wish he could get back a little farther than he did.

Text book Bradie. That play ade me so dang mad.

I am with you guys it is time for Carp and Burnett can keep both the middle guys fresh.

 

[tomson75]

There's a nice dodge - you are the one backpeddlinig away from what you originally jumped on by quoting something after the fact ..... sorry, I have the qotes and times, so you don't have a chance on this particular point. You irrationally started this by picking a fight based on something I didn't even say.

Now, after the fact I did say what you quoted, and I don't mind discussing that. But on this point you lose.

You are merely doing what you always do. When you lose a point you divert to something else and pretend that it applies.



You have been ranting on and on and on about what Carp did Thursday being a deviation from normal OLB duties because it was a nickle situation and therefore he was acting as a back-up DE rather than as an OLB. You have also said that when Ware does it it is for the same reason, and he too is merely being a backup DE.

I'm telling you that Ware lines up that way on any given down - not just passing downs or nickle situations. That's part of what his responsibility is in Phillips 3-4 defense. The OLB is responsible for rushing the passer on ANY given down, and it could be from a 3 point stance, a standing position or blitzing from a more traditional LB role ............


HERE'S THE BIG QUESTION THOUGH:

This started when you disputed my assertion that Carp was more noticeable rushing from the outside Thursday (few would dispute that - although you twisted my words to do so).

The point, in your mind, was that Carp's only actual LB play was as the ILB, and that he didn't fill any OLB duties in the game.

SO HERE'S THE QUESTION ....... even if you call him a nicle DE, wasn't Carp filling the same role that Ware would have been had Ware still been in the game at that point?

IF so, then wasn't he filling the role that a player nomally listed as an OLB would have filled?

Actually, I think many people would dispute this.

 

[theogt]

There's a nice dodge - you are the one backpeddlinig away from what you originally jumped on by quoting something after the fact ..... sorry, I have the qotes and times, so you don't have a chance on this particular point. You irrationally started this by picking a fight based on something I didn't even say.

Now, after the fact I did say what you quoted, and I don't mind discussing that. But on this point you lose.

You are merely doing what you always do. When you lose a point you divert to something else and pretend that it applies.

You implied something. I attacked it. You expressly stated what I thought you were implying. Game over, kiddo.

You have been ranting on and on and on about what Carp did Thursday being a deviation from normal OLB duties because it was a nickle situation and therefore he was acting as a back-up DE rather than as an OLB. You have also said that when Ware does it it is for the same reason, and he too is merely being a backup DE.

Huh? Ware is the "starting" nickel DE. He's not a backup. What are you talking about?

I'm telling you that Ware lines up that way on any given down - not just passing downs or nickle situations. That's part of what his responsibility is in Phillips 3-4 defense. The OLB is responsible for rushing the passer on ANY given down, and it could be from a 3 point stance, a standing position or blitzing from a more traditional LB role ............

No, Ware only lines up on the LOS with his hand in the dirt in nickel packages. Where you got that I said he only rushes on 3rd downs is beyond me.

HERE'S THE BIG QUESTION THOUGH:

This started when you disputed my assertion that Carp was more noticeable rushing from the outside Thursday (few would dispute that - although you twisted my words to do so).

No, I simply stated that Carp didn't play OLB and you began to argue with me claiming that nickel DE = OLB.

The point, in your mind, was that Carp's only actual LB play was as the ILB, and that he didn't fill any OLB duties in the game.

He didn't play any OLB duties in the game.

SO HERE'S THE QUESTION ....... even if you call him a nicle DE, wasn't Carp filling the same role that Ware would have been had Ware still been in the game at that point?

Yes, he was playing nickel DE. Sometimes Ware plays nickel DE.

IF so, then wasn't he filling the role that a player nomally listed as an OLB would have filled?

He was playing nickel DE. Sometimes OLBs play it. Sometimes 3-4 DEs play it. Sometimes ILBs play it (see Carpenter and Ayodele, who has lined up there). It's not just OLBs.

In other words, playing a position that is sometimes played by OLBs does not make him an OLB. Surely you can see how silly this line of reasoning is.

 

[theogt]

Beauty is in the bandwidth of the beholder.

This thread has gotten more tangled as it has grown. I tend to agree with superpunk that the purpose of the OP might have been less of an objective discussion and more of a rant, subtly as it may have been cast at first.

It appears theo has already concluded James hasn't improved, regardless of playing weight, and possibly won't. It would be a different story maybe if the regular season started next week, but the calendar says otherwise.

It wasn't some veiled attempt to criticize James. It was a blatant attempt to criticize him. I thought for sure he'd looks faster when he lost 20 pounds. I haven't been able to watch training camp, so I haven't seen him play at this weight. After watching him, I didn't think he looked faster.

If you think he did look faster, I'd like to hear you say you think he did.

 

[YosemiteSam]

Nickel Package A:
Hatcher - Ferguson - Canty - Ware
James - Ayodele

Nickel Package B:
Carpenter - Ferguson - Canty - Ware
James - Ayodele

Nickel Package C:
Spencer - Fergson - Canty - Ware
James - Ayodele

I know these are only examples, so understand I'm not pointing out errors here. From what I hear, Burnett and Carpenter are expected to be the primary 3rd down middle linebackers in the nickel and 3-4 because of their combined coverage and pass rush skills exceed James and Ayodele.

 

[tomson75]

I know these are only examples, so understand I'm not pointing out errors here. From what I hear, Burnett and Carpenter are expected to be the primary 3rd down middle linebackers in the nickel and 3-4 because of their combined coverage and pass rush skills exceed James and Ayodele.

While this might be true, they may also see time at nickle DE instead...as they did against the Colts. They both have experience playing DE, and both have had some success. It depends on the package.

 

[YosemiteSam]

Check out the 28-yard pass to Harrison. Not saying your ILB should prevent that play completely, but I wish he could get back a little farther than he did.

The catch was made closer to the sideline which is generally not an ILBs zone.

I am with you guys it is time for Carp and Burnett can keep both the middle guys fresh.

The reason Akin and Bradie are the starting ILBs are because they are better against the run than Burnett and Carpenter. It's also why Burnett and Carpenter are expected to be the ILBs on 3rd downs.

 

[theogt]

I know these are only examples, so understand I'm not pointing out errors here. From what I hear, Burnett and Carpenter are expected to be the primary 3rd down middle linebackers in the nickel and 3-4 because of their combined coverage and pass rush skills exceed James and Ayodele.

I know, but I thought I'd keep it simple for the guy.

 

[tomson75]

The reason Akin and Bradie are the starting ILBs are because they are better against the run than Burnett and Carpenter. It's also why Burnett and Carpenter are expected to be the ILBs on 3rd downs.

I think the difference between thier abilities to stop the run is greatly overstated. James' play against the run is marginally better than Carpenter's...at least compared to Carp's coverage advantages over James.

Teams do pass on first and second downs...if James hasn't improved, it might be time to give Carpenter his chance to prove himself. Ayodele doesn't worry me nearly as much as Bradie, but it would be nice to see more of Burnett as well.