Broaddus on Arkin

[jterrell]

So what is he lacking? Is he still just not strong enough? Is it technique? Between the ears? Heart? Desire?

I think as a fan its hard for us to know why someone ends up as a bust, simply because we aren't around the player. Its hard to judge by watching tape because we don't know assignments. We don't know his attitude, how hard he works, how money affects his play. We just see a fourth round pick that appeared to have some talent not playing.

Asking him to answer that question is setting him up to fail.

He can give the basic strength argument that seems readily apparent and someone will find fault with that take or any other.

We do that and its no biggie... he does it and it's either biblical law or a terrible evaluation by a know-nothing. Not great reward for answering questions.

Seems scouts felt Arkin having never been in a real gym would add strength once he was introduced to a real weight room. That hasn't happened as envisioned it seems. --genetics play a big part there. some guys pack on strength and weight easily, others are severely hard gainers. you dont think of 300 pounders as ever being hard gainers but they can be.

Arkin is on the roster so we'll all see how it plays out in pre-season. Looks like he'll get a long look before he gets cut. No quick triggers on this one.

 

[proscout]

So what is he lacking? Is he still just not strong enough? Is it technique? Between the ears? Heart? Desire?

I think as a fan its hard for us to know why someone ends up as a bust, simply because we aren't around the player. Its hard to judge by watching tape because we don't know assignments. We don't know his attitude, how hard he works, how money affects his play. We just see a fourth round pick that appeared to have some talent not playing.

Its not a lack of effort or desire to do his job...its just he hasnt developed as a player...there were times on film in college playing left tackle against schools like Kansas State getting the job done...his movement and strength were good...he finished blocks and played at times even after the whistle...there was some nastiness to his game...but now he plays too high and he can't sit down on rushers...he doesnt play with leverage...can gets put in terrible positions as a blocker...he is just not powerful enough to handle rushers one-on-one...they have appeared to miss....and I missed right along with them...it sucks.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Its not a lack of effort or desire to do his job...its just he hasnt developed as a player...there were times on film in college playing left tackle against schools like Kansas State getting the job done...his movement and strength were good...he finished blocks and played at times even after the whistle...there was some nastiness to his game...but now he plays too high and he can't sit down on rushers...he doesnt play with leverage...can gets put in terrible positions as a blocker...he is just not powerful enough to handle rushers one-on-one...they have appeared to miss....and I missed right along with them...it sucks.

Thank you for the explanation!

Very much appreciated.

 

[xwalker]

Its not a lack of effort or desire to do his job...its just he hasnt developed as a player...there were times on film in college playing left tackle against schools like Kansas State getting the job done...his movement and strength were good...he finished blocks and played at times even after the whistle...there was some nastiness to his game...but now he plays too high and he can't sit down on rushers...he doesnt play with leverage...can gets put in terrible positions as a blocker...he is just not powerful enough to handle rushers one-on-one...they have appeared to miss....and I missed right along with them...it sucks.

Are you saying that you can see from the practices without pads that he is not strong enough or is your opinion all based on last year's training camp?

 

[proscout]

He hasn't been strong enough with or without pads. Don't let the without pads fool you...the one thing you can see is strength...you physically have to get in front of the man and slow him down...he doesn't do that...he gets compressed at times....it happens on tape....I see it with my own eyes...he just isn't powerful enough to hold blocks...I don't know how I can explain it any more...

 

[BlindFaith]

Its not a lack of effort or desire to do his job...its just he hasnt developed as a player...there were times on film in college playing left tackle against schools like Kansas State getting the job done...his movement and strength were good...he finished blocks and played at times even after the whistle...there was some nastiness to his game...but now he plays too high and he can't sit down on rushers...he doesnt play with leverage...can gets put in terrible positions as a blocker...he is just not powerful enough to handle rushers one-on-one...they have appeared to miss....and I missed right along with them...it sucks.

Thanks for the reply. It must be hard to evaluate smaller school lineman. You could be all world and not have to play up to that level because the guys you are blocking are far less talented. So it may not show up on tape. Or you could have a marginally more talented guy that is giving 110 percent, looks pretty good on tape, but gets to the NFL and simply doesn't have what it takes.

I would guess that talking to the college coaches would play an important role in figuring that out. How much value do NFL scouts put on the player evaluations provided by the coaches? Especially with the smaller school players.

 

[Gaede]

The time Broaddus spends replying to Twitter posts -- and now responding to stuff here -- is truly amazing. Agree with him or not, he really works at getting information to fans

Agreed. Great information Broaddus. Really appreciate the replies.

 

[burmafrd]

He hasn't been strong enough with or without pads. Don't let the without pads fool you...the one thing you can see is strength...you physically have to get in front of the man and slow him down...he doesn't do that...he gets compressed at times....it happens on tape....I see it with my own eyes...he just isn't powerful enough to hold blocks...I don't know how I can explain it any more...

That is it in a nutshell. The boys gambled that a couple of years with a NFL level training program would get him that strength. So far no.

Some people think that anyone can get stronger - sometimes it just does not happen.

It was a 4th round pick- not a bad gamble just one that looks like it will not work out.

 

[Stash]

Its not a lack of effort or desire to do his job...its just he hasnt developed as a player...there were times on film in college playing left tackle against schools like Kansas State getting the job done...his movement and strength were good...he finished blocks and played at times even after the whistle...there was some nastiness to his game...but now he plays too high and he can't sit down on rushers...he doesnt play with leverage...can gets put in terrible positions as a blocker...he is just not powerful enough to handle rushers one-on-one...they have appeared to miss....and I missed right along with them...it sucks.

Very much appreciate you taking the time to clarify your position and answer a few questions.

 

[Verdict]

The Cowboys scouts seemed to have whiffed on evaluating this player. You don't use a 4th round pick on a guy who isn't expected to play at all until his third year or later unless that guy can be something special one he actually sees the field. That is reserved for UDFAs.

 

[Stash]

That is it in a nutshell. The boys gambled that a couple of years with a NFL level training program would get him that strength. So far no.

Some people think that anyone can get stronger - sometimes it just does not happen.

It was a 4th round pick- not a bad gamble just one that looks like it will not work out.

Tough to see in an otherwise stellar draft.

The Cowboys' big misses came in two of their biggest need areas - secondary and offensive line.

They drafted Josh Thomas, who I believe never played a snap for them over Richard Sherman, now considered one of the league's best.

And they missed on Arkin while the Texans got a fine young RT in Cecil Newton much later while we continue the 'Doug Free' dance.

And they continue to pay dearly for those mistakes.

 

[jterrell]

The Cowboys scouts seemed to have whiffed on evaluating this player. You don't use a 4th round pick on a guy who isn't expected to play at all until his third year or later unless that guy can be something special one he actually sees the field. That is reserved for UDFAs.

I can agree with the first line but the rest is hogwash.

4th round picks can develop over time. The reason they weren't 1st or 2nd round picks is they weren't ready to help you day 1.

Now the fact Dallas had a very real need and Arkin couldn't help them at all is alarming to be sure but if you get Arkin on the field in year 3 or even year 4 that isn't a below average 4th round pick performance.

Fans think every draft pick walks in kicking butt and taking names but that is heinously flawed ideals.

UDFA are long shots to last through camp much less make the full roster ever. Because you get 10-12 UDFA per year yea 1 may stick per year. Whereas you get 1 4th round pick.

Wilber was also an 4 guy who may not play til year 3. Depends on health and how the backup DL shake out but it wouldn't be disastrous if he sat another year learning to play DE.

 

[jterrell]

Tough to see in an otherwise stellar draft.

The Cowboys' big misses came in two of their biggest need areas - secondary and offensive line.

They drafted Josh Thomas, who I believe never played a snap for them over Richard Sherman, now considered one of the league's best.

And they missed on Arkin while the Texans got a fine young RT in Cecil Newton much later while we continue the 'Doug Free' dance.

And they continue to pay dearly for those mistakes.

..sigh..

Josh Thomas was a 5th round pick who has started 5 games in 2 years. We cut him because we had issues at other spots and needed immediate CB help but he wasn't a bad draft pick. He wasn't a guy who couldn't play.

David Arkin has made the team twice. He appears to be insanely behind the other OL but they keep him around for a reason. We've certainly cut other R4 guys without issue so it has ot be something they see in him worth developing.

Draft misses are guys like DeAngelo Smith. --wasn't faster than the kicker.
Stephen Hodge. Never a shot to even pretend he was an NFL player.

 

[Stash]

..sigh..

Josh Thomas was a 5th round pick who has started 5 games in 2 years. We cut him because we had issues at other spots and needed immediate CB help but he wasn't a bad draft pick. He wasn't a guy who couldn't play.

...sigh.... Right back at ya! Feel better now?

Ooh, Thomas started two games for an awful Carolina secondary, be still my heart! He did so after they benched the 5th round rookie who had played ahead of him. Is this supposed to be a testament to his greatness? Maybe in the land of low expectations, but not here. He never did a thing for Dallas, the team I actually care about.

And it looks especially bad after he never played a snap and the Seahawks got Sherman soon after.

David Arkin has made the team twice. He appears to be insanely behind the other OL but they keep him around for a reason. We've certainly cut other R4 guys without issue so it has ot be something they see in him worth developing.

Draft misses are guys like DeAngelo Smith. --wasn't faster than the kicker.
Stephen Hodge. Never a shot to even pretend he was an NFL player.

Yet not enough for Arkin to ever be active?

Fact is that they're having a hard time acknowledging and moving on from a mistake. They have a habit of that. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[cowboysooner]

On average there is maybe one pro bowl level player in a 5th or a 6th round. That means you have less than a 3% chance of being the lucky one of 35-40 picks. Griping about the lack of productivity of a 4th round developmental lineman or a 5th round corner takes away from the legitimate ing about Jerry Jones... overpaying the good not great talent on the team and trading 1st rounders for fringe pro bowl wide receivers.

 

[Stash]

On average there is maybe one pro bowl level player in a 5th or a 6th round. That means you have less than a 3% chance of being the lucky one of 35-40 picks. Griping about the lack of productivity of a 4th round developmental lineman or a 5th round corner takes away from the legitimate ing about Jerry Jones... overpaying the good not great talent on the team and trading 1st rounders for fringe pro bowl wide receivers.

I don't think anyone said Pro Bowler.

In this case, I would gladly settle for contributor.

 

[jterrell]

...sigh.... Right back at ya! Feel better now?

Ooh, Thomas started two games for an awful Carolina secondary, be still my heart! He did so after they benched the 5th round rookie who had played ahead of him. Is this supposed to be a testament to his greatness? Maybe in the land of low expectations, but not here. He never did a thing for Dallas, the team I actually care about.

And it looks especially bad after he never played a snap and the Seahawks got Sherman soon after.



Yet not enough for Arkin to ever be active?

Fact is that they're having a hard time acknowledging and moving on from a mistake. They have a habit of that. Nothing more, nothing less.

You either draft NFL talent or you do not.
Roster mgmt and coaching play in as well to how a guy fits on a particular team. But by your fairly soft logic we wasted a draft pick on Jimmy Smith too.

If you are grading the draft you look for NFL players period. If they play elsewhere they are still NFL players. Carolina benched their OWN r5 DB to start ours. Yea, that counts as our draft pick being a real NFL contributor. BTW he is credited as starting 5 games in 2012.

Dallas had no problem moving on from Robert Brewster and plenty of other draft picks failures. The thought they keep guys around too long to develop is absurd.

Aaron Rodgers had a QB rating of 45 or so after his first two seasons. He took about 50 snaps. A shame GB kept him around until year 4 huh?

 

[Stash]

You either draft NFL talent or you do not.
Roster mgmt and coaching play in as well to how a guy fits on a particular team. But by your fairly soft logic we wasted a draft pick on Jimmy Smith too.

Apples to oranges. Injury had nothing to do with neither Thomas nor Arkin as it had everything to do with Jimmy Smith.

If you are grading the draft you look for NFL players period. If they play elsewhere they are still NFL players. Carolina benched their OWN r5 DB to start ours. Yea, that counts as our draft pick being a real NFL contributor. BTW he is credited as starting 5 games in 2012.

And if the player drafted never contributes, it's a failure. Not that complicated.

Dallas had no problem moving on from Robert Brewster and plenty of other draft picks failures. The thought they keep guys around too long to develop is absurd.

And yet, here sits David Arkin, deactivated for used up bums like Derrick Dockery...

And the notion is no more 'absurd' than not expecting any players after round 3 to contribute before years 3 and 4. There's not a team in the league that could afford that number of players contributing nothing until right before its time to leave. Those low standards are ridiculous and inaccurate.

Aaron Rodgers had a QB rating of 45 or so after his first two seasons. He took about 50 snaps. A shame GB kept him around until year 4 huh?

Wow. That 'example' is such a pathetic reach that it's unworthy of a serious response.

 

[jterrell]

va

If you want to grade draft pick production for your own team that is a metric that goes far beyond quality drafting.

Quality drafting is very easy to define by drafting NFL talent.

There are plenty of NFL draft picks that do not produce immediately including of course Aaron Rodgers who is probably the best overall player right now. A lack of early playing time is a concern but it is not a final grade. A player that does develop and play later is certainly of value. Many players can follow that arc. Getting ready to play in the NFL and especially for 16 games is a major task very few rookies can handle. 4th rounders are expected to do it and when they do it is considered a huge plus.

Arkin's story is not finished. Thus far he has been a bust. May or may not end up that way. We'll see. MANY other OL have started slowly before having a very productive NFL career. It also worked for Romo, Austin and others currently on this team.

Jimmy Smith was injured and tied to drug use. We gave up on him quickly though. Perhaps too quickly considering keeping him likely means no trade for Galloway.

If a team can keep 2 kickers or UDFA they can keep a few late rounders to develop. There are inactive spots for a reason.

 

[Stash]

If you want to grade draft pick production for your own team that is a metric that goes far beyond quality drafting.

Quality drafting is very easy to define by drafting NFL talent.

For some people, maybe. For myself, if a player your team drafted never contributes for your team on the field, the pick is a failure.

There are plenty of NFL draft picks that do not produce immediately including of course Aaron Rodgers who is probably the best overall player right now.

I feel it is ridiculous to try to bring that player into this conversation.

A lack of early playing time is a concern but it is not a final grade. A player that does develop and play later is certainly of value. Many players can follow that arc. Getting ready to play in the NFL and especially for 16 games is a major task very few rookies can handle. 4th rounders are expected to do it and when they do it is considered a huge plus.

Arkin's story is not finished. Thus far he has been a bust. May or may not end up that way. We'll see. MANY other OL have started slowly before having a very productive NFL career. It also worked for Romo, Austin and others currently on this team.

By most accounts, the story IS finished, for the team we care about anyway. He's had plenty of time and reports indicate it hasn't happened and time is almost up.

And then it will be the same story, then it will be past time to be talking about David Arkin and folks will want to wash away another failure as if it never happened.

Jimmy Smith was injured and tied to drug use. We gave up on him quickly though. Perhaps too quickly considering keeping him likely means no trade for Galloway.

If a team can keep 2 kickers or UDFA they can keep a few late rounders to develop. There are inactive spots for a reason.

Thanks for bringing up the two kickers again! :laugh2:

And I'm not sure Smith had any drug issues until well after his Dallas tenure.