Collins a no go at RT?

[Alexander]

I'd rather sign Leary, trade Collins for the best pick available and use that pick on an RT...and from everything I've read, Collins can not play RT, not that Free can play RT anymore...

You are not going to find a better prospect from this OL group in the draft for what a team would give up for him.

 

[Stash]

It's still the same thing. Some people don't understand the nuances of either position, they just see "Good Offensive Line" and "Bad Defensive Line" and since Leary doesn't give up sacks like Free occasionally does, he must be good.

You're entitled to your opinion of course, but I don't think it's one shared by too many people, much less NFL decision makers. One guy is about to be well paid, the other is closer to getting his release.

I think Leary is a nice player, certainly don't think he's a scrub, but he's gonna get overpaid relative to his actual value here pretty quickly.

He well might be, teams are flush with cap room, have needs at the position, and it's a weak free agent class overall. When those things line up, lots of players get overpaid.

But he played very well for this team when they needed him and I won't try to diminish that, even as he walks out the door. He handled a tough situation about as well as could be expected, worked hard, reinvented himself as a player and got better, and now is waiting for a well-earned big payday.

 

[GhostOfPelluer]

You are not going to find a better prospect from this OL group in the draft for what a team would give up for him.

This is true. There might be one or two tackles from this group that may project better, but even that is subjective.

 

[GhostOfPelluer]

You're entitled to your opinion of course, but I don't think it's one shared by too many people, much less NFL decision makers. One guy is about to be well paid, the other is closer to getting his release.



He well might be, teams are flush with cap room, have needs at the position, and it's a weak free agent class overall. When those things line up, lots of players get overpaid.

But he played very well for this team when they needed him and I won't try to diminish that, even as he walks out the door. He handled a tough situation about as well as could be expected, worked hard, reinvented himself as a player and got better, and now is waiting for a well-earned big payday.

I agree here. I've stated as much previously - not that I expect you or anyone else to keep tabs of my positing history. He handled the situation like a true pro. He's going to get paid. I just know some folks lose their crap around here when a guy is overpaid relative to production and that's probably going to be Leary by year 2 or 3 of his next contract.

 

[Alexander]

It's still the same thing. Some people don't understand the nuances of either position, they just see "Good Offensive Line" and "Bad Defensive Line" and since Leary doesn't give up sacks like Free occasionally does, he must be good.

He is a good player. Far superior to Tyrone Crawford. So, sorry, not the "same thing". Put Crawford on the open market, nobody is tripping over himself to sign him.

As for your belief that people generalize with performance around the player, so what? NFL teams do it all the time.

Jermey Parnell got way overpaid because he was part of the NFL's best position group. It is just a natural effect.

I think Leary is a nice player, certainly don't think he's a scrub, but he's gonna get overpaid relative to his actual value here pretty quickly.

Some players are more valuable on some rosters than others relative to the strength of what they are going into.

Leary instantly becomes a top interior player on teams like Denver, Houston, Indianapolis, Jacksonville etc.

 

[Stash]

I agree here. I've stated as much previously - not that I expect you or anyone else to keep tabs of my positing history. He handled the situation like a true pro. He's going to get paid. I just know some folks lose their crap around here when a guy is overpaid relative to production and that's probably going to be Leary by year 2 or 3 of his next contract.

You may very well be right. There are always teams that pay big on a free agent and end up regretting it, and I remember some notable guard contracts like Carl Nicks in particular. He was paid big money and injuries ruined him. Given his knee condition, any team would be rolling the dice to some degree. Maybe nothing ever happens, maybe it happens tomorrow?

 

[GhostOfPelluer]

He is a good player. Far superior to Tyrone Crawford. So, sorry, not the "same thing". Put Crawford on the open market, nobody is tripping over himself to sign him.

As for your belief that people generalize with performance around the player, so what? NFL teams do it all the time.

Jermey Parnell got way overpaid because he was part of the NFL's best position group. It is just a natural effect.



Some players are more valuable on some rosters than others relative to the strength of what they are going into.

Leary instantly becomes a top interior player on teams like Denver, Houston, Indianapolis, Jacksonville etc.

You'd be shocked what Crawford would command on the open market. I'd venture to guess $6-$7 million/year avg.

 

[Stash]

You'd be shocked what Crawford would command on the open market. I'd venture to guess $6-$7 million/year avg.

I'd completely disagree with that assessment. But until if and when that happens, and he's released, it's unproveable either way and not worth debate.

 

[GhostOfPelluer]

I'd completely disagree with that assessment. But until if and when that happens, and he's released, it's unproveable either way and not worth debate.

That's fair enough. I just don't get the Crawford hate. He's played through injuries, often played out of position and generated more pressure than any other player on our DLine. Sure, he's about to be overpaid based on his production, maybe as soon as this year, but not criminally. He's not a trash player. He's at worst average and probably a little better than that.

 

[Alexander]

You'd be shocked what Crawford would command on the open market. I'd venture to guess $6-$7 million/year avg.

Too bad we can't test that theory.

 

[Stash]

That's fair enough. I just don't get the Crawford hate. He's played through injuries, often played out of position and generated more pressure than any other player on our DLine. Sure, he's about to be overpaid based on his production, maybe as soon as this year, but not criminally. He's not a trash player. He's at worst average and probably a little better than that.

It's not player hate, it's awful contract hate.

He's a player that will, in total, cost this team $10 million this season in salary, and various bonuses.

And as it stands today, nobody can even tell me where Crawford will start. In all of the debates and arguments I've had about him, even his most staunch and ardent defender can't answer that question.

Maliek Collins has outperformed Crawford at the 3T as a rookie, moving Crawford there, where he himself has admitted to not fitting well and getting banged U.K. too often, would be forcing things for the sake of money.

And David Irving was a more catalytic player than Crawford was at LDE, a role that Crawford played out of necessity, not design.

And we can all agree that this team's biggest need is at defensive end anyway, so where does that leave a guy like Crawford?

And you mention "played through injuries" as if it's a good thing, it's not. While I can admire and respect him 'gutting it out', the fact is that we're getting diminished level of play. And he's coming off of a second consecutive shoulder surgery, in addition to a previous Achilles surgery. The track record there doesn't instill confidence either.

To sum it up, we're looking at a rotational role player with an escalating salary who will cost this team over $7 million in salary and $10 million overall. A player without a true scheme fit in our 4-3 defense, not big enough to play inside, not fast or flexible enough to play outside.

To be that situation is "criminal", and he absolutely is grossly overpaid for the role he will play here.

 

[GhostOfPelluer]

Granted, Irving can be more catalytic at times, but was awfully inconsistent, too. Crawford had more pressures and as many sacks as Collins. Collins has upside, I'm not trashing him, either. But Crawford isn't garbage either.

He was better injured than a guy off the street would have been. Availability is part of being a football player, that is definitely a good quality. If 2016 was Crawford at a diminished level, he could live up to the contract yet (not likely, just pointing out the logic).

He's going to be overpaid this year, I get that 100%. But he's better than a guy off the street and has position flex. There's some value in that. I don't lose sleep over his deal. Ask me again this time next year (although his base does drop by $1.25 million in 2018).

 

[Stash]

Granted, Irving can be more catalytic at times, but was awfully inconsistent, too. Crawford had more pressures and as many sacks as Collins. Collins has upside, I'm not trashing him, either.

Crawford had 4.5 from defensive end, the guys who are supposed to be getting the sacks. Collins had 5 at DT as a rookie.

But Crawford isn't garbage either.

Nobody ever said he was. The point is he's grossly overpaid for performance and not having a true starting role. I noticed you couldn't name one either.

He was better injured than a guy off the street would have been. Availability is part of being a football player, that is definitely a good quality.

And is costing the team $10 million total! By the way, they've had multiple "guys off the street" like George Selvie and Jermey Mincey who put up more sacks for a fraction of the cost. So I don't see where the comparison makes things look any better.

If 2016 was Crawford at a diminished level, he could live up to the contract yet (not likely, just pointing out the logic).

Sad thing is, that was the same story we got for why 2015 wasn't what we expected either. Notice a pattern?

He's going to be overpaid this year, I get that 100%. But he's better than a guy off the street and has position flex. There's some value in that. I don't lose sleep over his deal. Ask me again this time next year (although his base does drop by $1.25 million in 2018).

This time next year, he would have been paid $7 million plus in salary for 2017 - without an established starting role - and cost another $7 million in dead money to cut then. Does that sound better to you, or worse?

If the best thing you can say about a guy who will cost $10 million in total to keep around for 2017 and another $7 million to cut next year is "better than a guy off the street", it's a pretty weak 'endorsement'.

 

[The Quest for Six]

P.S. - Here's his draft profile from NFL.com...so you can direct any further dramatics to whoever wrote that analysis if you so choose...bolded a few things for you as I don't like to use ALL CAPS...

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2015/profiles/la'el-collins?id=2552361

ANALYSIS
STRENGTHS
Thick through chest and displays upper-body strength. Has strong hands and will snatch and control less active defenders. He takes defenders for a ride once he's engaged on the move. Loves to mash and intimidate opponents. Mean player. Can center pass rushers and end their attempt in pass pro. Utilizes length in pass protection and is acclimated to a pro-style offense. Able to run-block and pass-set laterally. Well-schooled and technically proficient. If he gets beat on a play, he comes back even harder on the next snap. Finisher. Can come in and play guard or tackle.
WEAKNESSES
Fails to consistently bring hips and feet with him through contact in the running game, causing him to fall forward and lose balance. Hand usage is a major concern. Hands will start too low in pass pro at times and has to work hard to redirect. Change of direction is slow for a tackle. Relies on lunging rather than foot movement to counter inside moves. Plays high out of stance and loses leverage battle on short-yardage confrontations. Will have to move to right tackle or inside.
SOURCES TELL US
"I love the guy on tape. Big-time finisher in the run game and we need that. What I don't like is that his hands are bad as a pass blocker right now and I'm not sure he gets that fixed right away." -- AFC offensive line coach
NFL COMPARISON
Maurkice Pouncey
BOTTOM LINE
Brawling right tackle or guard prospect in the NFL who has had a level of success in hyper-competitive SEC West. Lacks athleticism to be a consistent left tackle, despite his snaps there in college. Collins plays with a mean streak that is evident in every game, and could come in and start right away in a power-running game as a guard. Collins has a first-round grade, but with the ongoing investigation into the death of his ex-girlfriend Mills unresolved at the time of the draft, no one would be surprised if he went undrafted.

And who do these media Draft Geeks experts over generalizations compare Collins too who in the NFL, Maurkice Pouncey!.....and what "tackle" position does Maurkice Pouncey play for?? Oh that's right, he doesn't, He's a Center, so do you think his skill set and measurable's by REAL pro scouts had a lot to do with him playing Center and not Tackle...

 

[robbieruff]

And who do these media Draft Geeks experts over generalizations compare Collins too who in the NFL, Maurkice Pouncey!.....and what "tackle" position does Maurkice Pouncey play for?? Oh that's right, he doesn't, He's a Center, so do you think his skill set and measurable's by REAL pro scouts had a lot to do with him playing Center and not Tackle...

Oh...should we move him to center now and bump Fred to RT...lol...dude...read the entire analysis...

 

[GhostOfPelluer]

This time next year, he would have been paid $7 million plus in salary for 2017 - without an established starting role - and cost another $7 million in dead money to cut then. Does that sound better to you, or worse?

If the best thing you can say about a guy who will cost $10 million in total to keep around for 2017 and another $7 million to cut next year is "better than a guy off the street", it's a pretty weak 'endorsement'.

Not a weak endorsement at all. You said his playing through injuries was a negative trait. I disagree with that point. Also, you say he doesn't have an established role. All things equal he's the starting 3T and a nickle rusher from inside. At this point he's more polished than Collins although the rookie did come on strong late in 2016 and could push him from that spot.

 

[The Quest for Six]

So you're saying we shouldn't take into account anything about a player's collegiate career in terms of evaluating their projected performance in the NFL???

Is that true of baseball and the NBA, too???

I referenced Dak as an example of someone who gets to play due to injury...who cares if that's why they played!?! The comment about Collins playing at LSU due to injury was trying to dismiss his performance at LT during his two years at the position...it is an irrelevant point.

I think what I was saying was pretty clear, you're the one that can't stay on topic, we were talking about measurable's and skill set of a player from college to the pros, not injury to a starting QB to why Dak started, he wasn't changing positions like people think an offensive lineman coming out of college who has never played a down in his career as a right tackle can do......and as I stated before which you don't or won't grasp, all players in college no matter the position they played are evaluated on their measurable's and skill set to where they are suited to play in the pros....I don't care what position Collins played in college, he didn't face top notch defensive ends every week like he would in the pros.. Darren Woodson was a linebacker in college, he was a safety in the pros, I could name a hundred players that basd on their skill set and measurable's had to change position in the pros....IT'S PRETTY CLEAR!

 

[The Quest for Six]

Oh...should we move him to center now and bump Fred to RT...lol...dude...read the entire analysis...

those analysis are over generalizations, by media pundits....just like horoscopes, they'e all the same..

 

[the_h0wey]

http://cowboyszone.com/threads/can-lael-collins-play-rt.371025/

Here is an 11 page thread from just 2 weeks ago.

The answer has to be in there somewhere.

LoL

 

[robbieruff]

those analysis are over generalizations, by media pundits....just like horoscopes, they'e all the same..

Yeah. I see you process info just like my Dak comment. I was talking about him in the context of playing due to injury and you go off on some tangent and non sequitor about him playing for Cleveland and his supporting cast. Reading comprehensive and context are important qualities my brother if you want to fancy yourself some sort of quant/analytics wank that scoffs at league sanctioned analysis as being tantamount to a horoscope.

Here's another source for you.
https://BAN-INCOMING-IN-3-2-1/scoutingreport2015laelcollins.php

Says "guard OR right tackle"...admittedly also says SOME teams (yeah, used your fave all caps technique there) saw him as guard only...but that isn't apparently their take based in the conclusion.

Tell you what - why don't YOU pick your credible draft analysis source(s) and we can reference it/them.

I wait with anticipation...