Commanders | Team deep at wide receiver

[big dog cowboy]

How does it water down my argument?

I originally stated that our improved receiving corps would have an effect on our running game. You suggested that Portis didn't do anything special against the Cowboys. My point was that he had a great season regardless of his production against the Cowboys.

You also said......."But in the 35-7 game Portis had over 100 yards and a 4.9 avg." My response was to that statement.

 

[illone]

Noone's begging you to stick around, sparky.

Is that all you got for me is lame jabs?

Come on, superdouche. You can come up with something better than that.

 

[Hostile]

My point is, the Cowboys secondary had trouble with Moss and Cooley and NFL Europe cast-offs...it logically goes to say that now that they have improved that area, the Cowboys secondary will still stuggle. Yes, one year is too small of a sample to really say for certain, but it is all there is for right now.

So, our improved health won't matter?

Our secondary didn't improve too?

Our #1 draft pick, a natural fit at SOLB, won't matter?

Our better personnel on defense won't matter?

Roy playing up instead of deep won't matter?

Our 2nd year in the 3-4 won't matter?



In your dreams we'll be a huge pushover.

Besides, it's the day before the 4th of July, I'm stuck at work...and I loves me a good argument.

I love a good argument too. Too bad I won't get one from you.

 

[BlueStar22]

lol, they also have the shortest wr unit in the league.

 

[Sonny#9]

So, our improved health won't matter?

I'll give you that - but by how much? Wouldn't the talent upgrade still surpass that?

Our secondary didn't improve too?

Our #1 draft pick, a natural fit at SOLB, won't matter?

Carpenter? That was a good pick but I thought we were talking about receivers vs. DBs.

Our better personnel on defense won't matter?

It will against the run but I don't see how your secondary got better.

Roy playing up instead of deep won't matter?

Yeah I agree, that is defintely addition by subraction...

Our 2nd year in the 3-4 won't matter?


In your dreams we'll be a huge pushover.
I love a good argument too. Too bad I won't get one from you.

I never said you'd be a push over and the feeling is mutual.

 

[Hostile]

I'd say they're about equal.

I am going to give the Cowboys defense credit this year - I like their draft and would not mind having Ware...I am not thrilled with Newman, but I think he is one of the best in the NFC East.

But again, what you have failed to refute, is the Cowboys have the same secondary and the same defensive coordinator will be facing the Commanders with a better o-coordinator with better receivers than the ones that ripped the Cowboys a new one last year. Will it happen? We'll find out. But I have a lot more evidence to back my my reasoning.

What reasons have you given other than blind loyalty, which I don't fault at all, to the Cowboys secondary being better than the Commanders receivers?

How do you know the Commanders will grasp Saunders offense right away?

Exactly, you don't.

Newman isn't just one of the best CBs in the NFCE, he's the best CB in the NFCE.

We don't have the same secondary. We added 3 Safeties not on the team last year and we get our starting CB back healthy so his replacement can return to what he was brought here for, the Nickel.

On top of this a pass rush can help a secondary and we have made improvement on pass rush. If any of the Safeties can play deep and Roy can play up he alone makes things dicey for your QB. That isn't even talking about Ware having all off season to get stronger and grow. It isn't even talking about the improvement at SOLB. It isn't even talking about a healthy natural NT instead of a 4-3 DT (whom I will miss) in the middle.

I hope you will continue to see this defense as an easy mark. I love the reactions when reality sets in.

 

[illone]

I hope you will continue to see this defense as an easy mark. I love the reactions when reality sets in.

That's pretty much how I feel about our improved offense.

Your defense will be a scary unit once they gel.

 

[Hostile]

I'll give you that - but by how much? Wouldn't the talent upgrade still surpass that?

In your delusional mind I suppose it would. In the real world you didn't exactly add Randy Moss and Marvin Harrison.

Carpenter? That was a good pick but I thought we were talking about receivers vs. DBs.

You've never heard of improved coverage on a TE?

Not surprising.

It will against the run but I don't see how your secondary got better.

You're kidding. No, you probably aren't.

Did you see Bereiault before he got hurt last year? He imrpoves the depth at Safety.

Ever heard of Marcus Coleman? He improves the depth at safety

5th round pick out of Florida State, his name is Pat Watkins. He's 6'5", ran a legit 4.45 time in the 40 and has a 41" vertical leap. He improves the depth at Safety.

A healthy Anthony Henry won't hurt us either.

Yeah I agree, that is defintely addition by subraction.

No, not really, but it is something your offense will have to account for. Any time an offense has to adjust, it throws the timing off just a little bit. Add in a WR with suspect hands, cough Lloyd cough, and there's potential for a big play the other way.

I never said you'd be a push over and the feeling is mutual.

Mine isn't a feeling, it's a fact. Yours must be nausea.

Yeah, you act like the gap got wider instead of both teams made adjustments. It's foolish.

 

[Hostile]

That's pretty much how I feel about our improved offense.

Your defense will be a scary unit once they gel.

Who here is calling your offense a mark? Show me one example of it.

On the other hand, SonnyBoy says your offense owned our defense last year and it improved so it "only stands to reason" that the gap continues.

Be honest if you can.

 

[Bizwah]

I'd say they're about equal.

I am going to give the Cowboys defense credit this year - I like their draft and would not mind having Ware...I am not thrilled with Newman, but I think he is one of the best in the NFC East.

But again, what you have failed to refute, is the Cowboys have the same secondary and the same defensive coordinator will be facing the Commanders with a better o-coordinator with better receivers than the ones that ripped the Cowboys a new one last year. Will it happen? We'll find out. But I have a lot more evidence to back my my reasoning.

What reasons have you given other than blind loyalty, which I don't fault at all, to the Cowboys secondary being better than the Commanders receivers?

Ripped us a new one?

Did you even watch the first game?

Aside from two fluke bombs we totally shut you down. The second game we were without our best CB. In fact, we've been trying to tell you over and over that our team was decimated by injuries......

We have a very good secondary. It may even be the strongest area of our team. So how do you think we'll struggle?

Henry had a couple of poor games at the beginning of the season. But he turned it on. Parcells himself said that he was our defensive MVP at the midway point.

Yeah, I guess he doesn't know how crappy Henry is?

Again, for the reading impaired....

Newman = or > Springs
Henry > Rogers
Williams > Archuletta
Davis/Watkins/Coleman < Taylor

I think 3 out of 4 is pretty good if you ask me. You'd almost think we were as good in the secondary as you....

Owens > Moss
Glenn > Lloyd
Crayton < Randle El
Witten > Cooley

Again, 3 of 4 is pretty good. I'd think we're better than you here too....Maybe it's just me.

 

[Bizwah]

Oh, heavens here it comes.....

The buzzards will be here soon......

I swear the Skins fans can sniff out any negative comment about their team from thousands of miles away.

Man......

I hate it when I'm right.

 

[Vintage]

Two things:

Lloyd and Randle El add talent to the WR mix. However, it remains to be seen how productive they will be in the offense. Commanders fans, IMO, are right in assuming its an upgrade in terms of talent.

And Cowboys fans are right in assuming that it does not necessarily mean its an upgrade in production.

Talent means jack if you can't produce. And we'll find if the production is improved. FWIW, I think the Skins will be improved offensively with their new acquisitions. They'll help relieve pressure of Moss and Brunell. And should Brunell go down, it also will help with the development of Campbell. They could also draw coverage away from Cooley as well, freeing him up more.

Second point:

Who cares where the Skins got Lloyd from? Who cares if the 49ers suck and chose to look elsewhere at WR. We grabbed Henry from Cleveland (hardly a talent deep team), Glenn from Houston (ditto), Kosier from Detroit (same)..... Henry and Glenn panned out. We'll see on Kosier. Our coaches did their due dilligence in scouting there players. Hate 'em or not, but I bet the Commanders did their due dilligence on their players.

 

[Vintage]

...I am not thrilled with Newman, but I think he is one of the best in the NFC East.

Allowing 42% completion rate for 300 and change yards and 0 TD's....

And you aren't "thrilled" by him?

Which CB's "thrill" you?

But again, what you have failed to refute, is the Cowboys have the same secondary and the same defensive coordinator will be facing the Commanders with a better o-coordinator with better receivers than the ones that ripped the Cowboys a new one last year. Will it happen? We'll find out. But I have a lot more evidence to back my my reasoning.

OK. The Eagles two years ago had the same secondary they did last year. Why didn't it play to a Pro Bowl level again? I mean, they had the same exact starters.

Why did Shaun Alexander not have the same season he did last season the year before? Same OL, Same FB, Same QB, same system the season before?

Point is, some times, players/teams have a down year. Injuries hurt/hinder production. And players can be a bit inconsistant year to year.


And, internal improvement does help. If players progress year to year, it will improve the unit.

 

[superpunk]

I'd say they're about equal.

I am going to give the Cowboys defense credit this year - I like their draft and would not mind having Ware...I am not thrilled with Newman, but I think he is one of the best in the NFC East.

Not thrilled, eh? Who does thrill you?

What reasons have you given other than blind loyalty, which I don't fault at all, to the Cowboys secondary being better than the Commanders receivers?

Let's see....do i really have to rehash everything Ive said, that's been ignored? Lloyd can't catch more than half the balls he gets thrown, neither can Randle El. Now they're in an offense where they're going to get less opportunities. Henry is healthy, Glenn can move back to the nickel, we have more talent than we had last year at FS, and Terrence is the real deal. Our LB corp is revamped, not the fustercluck mess you saw in game 2 last year, and all our second year players generating a pass rush have a year of experience in the 3-4, and in the NFL.

Need to try anything else on?

 

[superpunk]

Is that all you got for me is lame jabs?

That's right, fella.

And, if you think you got a nasty taunting this time, you ain't heard nothing yet, dappy English k-nnniggets! Thpppt!

 

[ghst187]

C'mon, man. You added Detroit and Carolina to that top tier, but not Washington? Granted, Keyshawn is better than Lloyd or El, but I'm factoring total receivers (Cooley included). Take out Detroit and Carolina, and sub in NYG and Washington.

Carolina...Steve Smith and Keyshawn....vs Moss and Lloyd...I'd take Carolina's duo everytime.

I think if you give Detroit a decent QB, you have a pretty good set of WRs.
Detroit is iffy though sure

Add Cooley in and Wash is fringe top tier. But its hard to rate a WR corps as "elite" or top tier when they have one elite WR and a couple of average #3s. Cooley is pretty good sure, but if you want to add in TEs then there are some other teams that start jumping high into the rankings like Atlanta and San Diego. When that many teams are close to Wash, by definition that makes them not so special.

 

[jterrell]

All three of our options are bigger than all three of the Colt's options. That certainly seems to work out for them.

Granted they have Manning and QB and we have Brunell, but thats not the WR debate.

I saw the stats about the WRs posted somewhere else, I haven't looked it up for myself. I'm trusting that it's accurate, though.

Actually I dont think this is accurate.

The Colts have 2 guys at 6 foot tall and a 3rd guy at 5'11 and 197 pounds.
The Skins have two guys generously listed at 5'10".

They aren't big though I'd agree there which is also why hey have been beaten up by the more physical defenses such as NE, Pitt and San Diego.

I am not saying the Skins WR corps sucks merely pointing out a flaw that I would attempt to rectify were I the GM.

The other flaw I'd note is one breakout season for Moss aside these guys simply aren't proven at all.

Here's a little article detailing how good Moss is yet notes his height at 5'9".



Compensating factors
Former Hurricanes WR Moss has it all -- except height
Click here for more on this story
Posted: Sunday April 15, 2001 11:22 AM
Updated: Monday April 16, 2001 3:07 PM

Santana Moss "I feel there's no one like me," Santana Moss said bluntly at the Scouting Combine. Eliot J. Schechter/Allsport

By Don Banks, Sports Illustrated

Frank Gilliam likes to call them compensating factors. And Santana Moss has them in spades. Of course, that means the former University of Miami wide receiver has something to compensate for.

Perhaps the most intriguing prospect at the draft's deepest position, Moss is everything you want in an NFL receiver. Except tall. But give a listen to his many proponents and they will convince you that he's too short in the same way Emmitt Smith was once judged too slow to make an impact at running back.

In terms of production, play-making, speed, instincts, toughness and the ability to get vertical, Moss measures up. In terms of flat-footed height, Moss falls short at just a tad more than 5-foot-9, 181 pounds.

"He's a little guy," said Gilliam, the Vikings' underrated vice president of player personnel. "But he has compensating factors. If you don't, quote, fit the ideal profile, whether it be height, weight, speed or quickness, then you must have some other things going for you, because the NFL is a speed and power game. You must have abilities to fit in there.

"And Moss does. He has excellent quickness and very, very good speed. And he can jump for his size. He's got a strong body. It's not a big body, but it's a strong body. Then he's competitive and has played in a good program and had good coaching. All those things make up to a certain degree for his lack of height. He's a very good talent. He’s got the talent of a first-rounder, enough to be up there with the top guys."

 

[jterrell]

Dude are you serious? Anquan Boldin had 100 catches and 1400 yards last year - and you're saying Terry Glenn is better?

I will take Santana Moss and Larry Fitzgerald over TO any day - neither one of them has destroyed 2 teams...the Cowboys time will come. I am not saying TO isn't good - just for the record - Moss had a break out year last year and Fitzgerald has the same amount talent only much younger.

It's readily apparent you know nothing about any of the other players you named and are just saying the Cowboys players are better b/c they're Cowboys.

The questions is, Are you serious????

I'll give you Boldin over Glenn easily. What you might notice however is that Boldin is far and away better than any Skin.

There is little doubt that TO was BY FAR the best WR on that list of names. In 7 games where he was 'tearing apart' that Eagles team he put up numbers that equaled career years for Lloyd or Randel El. Seriously, no kidding at all.

You are talking about a guy who AVERAGES 1200 yards and 11.8 TDs the past 6 years even figuring in his time out to disrupt two teams.

 

[SultanOfSix]

Ripped us a new one?

We have a very good secondary. It may even be the strongest area of our team. So how do you think we'll struggle?

Yes. Coupled with the fact that we have upgraded our 3-4, and barring injuries this defense could be scary good.

Why? Because the best coverage in the secondary is a monster pass rush. We've already got a pretty damn good secondary, so if we can upgrade our 3-4 to match, watch out.

This fact, many people seem to forget. This is one reason I'm excited about this season more than ever.

 

[superpunk]

Carolina...Steve Smith and Keyshawn....vs Moss and Lloyd...I'd take Carolina's duo everytime.

I think if you give Detroit a decent QB, you have a pretty good set of WRs.
Detroit is iffy though sure

Add Cooley in and Wash is fringe top tier. But its hard to rate a WR corps as "elite" or top tier when they have one elite WR and a couple of average #3s. Cooley is pretty good sure, but if you want to add in TEs then there are some other teams that start jumping high into the rankings like Atlanta and San Diego. When that many teams are close to Wash, by definition that makes them not so special.

But Atlanta and San Diego do not have a Santana Moss on the roster. Noone even close to fitting that bill. Carolina doesn't have anyone approaching a Chris Cooley, and while I definitely would take Johnson over Lloyd, there's no way I'd take Colbert over Randle El.

The Skins are not a top-tier unit. That designation is reserved for teams like the Cowboys, the Colts, the Cardinals, and the Bengals. The Colts and the Cowboys are on another level, since they each have a game-breaker, a real elite #1 receiver, they have a star #2 capable of huge numbers on his own, and they have phenomenal TEs. No other teams in the league have that combination, although Arizona's top 3 receivers kind of make up for their lack of a TE - plus Edge is a phenomenal receiver.

Washington, like I said, is right there on the next tier, below those 4, with Oakland, Carolina, New York, and others.