DeCastro at 14 is stupid

[realtick]

It's not that QB, T, CB, DE (OLB), ILB are hard to find, it's just that teams tend to "rush" to get those folks earlier on in the draft rather than later, so their perceived value is higher.

Now that doesn't mean those positions are in actuality more important (other than QB). For decades baseball managers thought that a speedy, base-stealing type of player should be batting lead-off. But statistic folks have shown that on-base-percentage in more important than stolen bases.

The result it that how things are perceived is not necessarily the truth.

And yes guards can be found all over the draft, but if you have a gem like DeCastro or Pouncey or one of the other top-flight interior lineman then taking them before another team does could be considered a solid move.

DeCastro seems to be special for the position. I don't consider Upshaw or Ingram to be special. They're good players, but they haven't had comparisons made to the very best 3-4 OLBer's of the last decade, like DeCastro has been compared to the very best guards.

Even further, you can take that notion of "guards can be found all over the draft...." and apply it to any position. Any. You can HOF QBs in the 5th round, undrafted, et cetera. You can find HOF OT in the 7th round. You can find undrafted perinneal All-Pro ILBs.

 

[Doomsday101]

Yes...but the Niners are hardly a juggernaut offensively...defense is what got them one fumble away from a Super Bowl date.

No they are not they are still a team building but a big part of their offensive has been the play of their line that has helped a QB who most wrote off and a running game that has helped to get them to the NFC Championship game. In large part because of the play up front.

I'll take Dallas skill players over the 9ers any day of the week but where the 9ers show very good strenght is on the OL and Mike Iupati is a big part of that

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Even further, you can take that notion of "guards can be found all over the draft...." and apply it to any position. Any. You can HOF QBs in the 5th round, undrafted, et cetera. You can find HOF OT in the 7th round. You can find undrafted perinneal All-Pro ILBs.

Touché.

And you can find pro-bowl QB's as free agent.

 

[realtick]

Touché.

And you can find pro-bowl QB's as free agent.

Yup...

 

[TheCount]

are you both doing this on purpose or don't you understand his point is that at the 14th pick in the draft you do not take a guard as it is not one of the premium positions.

QB, T, CB ,DE(OLB), ILB are hard to find and therfor premium picks are used on them as your odds are better of getting a good one. Where as guards can be found all over the draft without having to spend a premium pick on them

None of those positions are hard to find, every team has them. What is hard, is finding elite prospects at those positions. Which is the story for every other position.

Your list of positions interestingly excludes WR and HB, positions that teams often spend premium picks as well. Why is that?

 

[Zaxor]

None of those positions are hard to find, every team has them. What is hard, is finding elite prospects at those positions. Which is the story for every other position.

Your list of positions interestingly excludes WR and HB, positions that teams often spend premium picks as well. Why is that?

that list wasn't meant to be an all exclusive just a example sorry about that.

but I do agree the elite ones are the ones they are searching for and those positions are hard to come by.
Where as guard historically are not

 

[Stash]

are you both doing this on purpose or don't you understand his point is that at the 14th pick in the draft you do not take a guard as it is not one of the premium positions.

So 'the point' then is that 14 is 'too high' and 18 is 'acceptable'? If so, that's beyond ridiculous.

QB, T, CB ,DE(OLB), ILB are hard to find and therfor premium picks are used on them as your odds are better of getting a good one. Where as guards can be found all over the draft without having to spend a premium pick on them

Each example has been found in rounds other than round 1. In fact, sometimes they're undrafted.

The point is that if you find a special player who is widely-regarded as the best at his position, as well as a position of need, you take him.

You don't get hung up on a few draft slots, you don't get hung up on what other guys are doing, you take him.

 

[Zaxor]

So 'the point' then is that 14 is 'too high' and 18 is 'acceptable'? If so, that's beyond ridiculous.



Each example has been found in rounds other than round 1. In fact, sometimes they're undrafted.

The point is that if you find a special player who is widely-regarded as the best at his position, as well as a position of need, you take him.

You don't get hung up on a few draft slots, you don't get hung up on what other guys are doing, you take him.

if you can move down in a draft and still get the palyer you target...what in the world would be wrong with that?!

so is Decastro going to be better than Brandon Albert, better than Glenn better than the kid from Iowa better than a few other prospects and will he be so much better than all the other guards that was drafted in the last ten years to take him in a higher spot than any guard has been taken for the last ten years

 

[Doomsday101]

if you can move down in a draft and still get the palyer you target...what in the world would be wrong with that?!

so is Decastro going to be better than Brandon Albert, better than Glenn better than the kid from Iowa better than a few other prospects and will he be so much better than all the other guards that was drafted in the last ten years to take him in a higher spot than any guard has been taken for the last ten years

When you have scouts comparing his talent that of Hutchinson then yes. I'm not going to say G will normally fall into the 1st half of the 1st rd but when people make these hard core rules of who you can get and who you can't based on the position alone then that is foolish. I would not draft a guy at 14 because of the position he plays I would draft him because I think his talent warrents it be it G or OLB or CB

 

[AsthmaField]

If DeCastro is scouted by the Cowboys and grades as highly as all the "experts" have him graded, then he should be easily the highest rated player on our board.

If that's the case, then you take him... particularly if it is at a position that could use some strengthening.

I know he's a guard and that Spencer is a free agent and we need corners... but it would be lunacy to skip the next Hutchinson for the next Greg Ellis or Kareem Jackson.

 

[realtick]

if you can move down in a draft and still get the palyer you target...what in the world would be wrong with that?!

so is Decastro going to be better than Brandon Albert, better than Glenn better than the kid from Iowa better than a few other prospects and will he be so much better than all the other guards that was drafted in the last ten years to take him in a higher spot than any guard has been taken for the last ten years

Can we agree Dallas has a need at OG?

Yes (I think we can both agree on that).

Can you prove that every team drafting at #14 in the 1st round of the past decade had a need at OG? Further, can you prove that there even was a OG prospect rated as highly as DeCastro in each of those drafts to even be bypassed on? The particular scenerios and variables that go into each and every draft are almost infinite and basically renders any one-to-one, this-is-that comparison meaningless. In other words, saying "...no OG has been drafted at that high a spot in the past ten years" is irrelevent.

FWIW, the vast majority of all reputable draft websites/pundits agree that DeCastro is one of the best OG prospects to have come out in years.

 

[Stash]

if you can move down in a draft and still get the palyer you target...what in the world would be wrong with that?!

Where is the 'Do Not Touch' tag that we can place on DeCastro? If we had one we should have used it on Max Unger in 2009.

so is Decastro going to be better than Brandon Albert, better than Glenn better than the kid from Iowa better than a few other prospects and will he be so much better than all the other guards that was drafted in the last ten years to take him in a higher spot than any guard has been taken for the last ten years

He's regarded in the same light as the top guards drafted in round 1 over the past decade.

The teams that did that were happy with their decision.

Specifically, Hutchinson is often mentioned. He went at #17 I believe and has had arguably a Hall of Fame career.

 

[TheCount]

that list wasn't meant to be an all exclusive just a example sorry about that.

but I do agree the elite ones are the ones they are searching for and those positions are hard to come by.
Where as guard historically are not

Elite guards aren't hard to come by? I have to disagree.

 

[burmafrd]

the kind of mentality that says very good guards are not important is why we have what we have NOW.

 

[burmafrd]

Elite guards aren't hard to come by? I have to disagree.

I have to laugh at the lack of football knowledge shown there. He really thinks guard is a nothing position.

I imagine Romo disagrees.

 

[Zaxor]

It's a picture meant to be humerous.

I understand the point that both of you are trying to make.

I don't agree with it. I've responded to him rebutting his argument. He hasn't responded, so I'll ask you. Who says "you do not take a guard as it is not one of the premium positions?"

Also, can you unfurl the scroll of all the great interior offensive linemen we have grabbed late in the draft, in say what, the past 10-15 years?

as a general rule that has been the case there have also been exception to the rule. To hold this rule up as if it is writen in stone is foolish. Steven Hutchinson was a G taken middle of the 1st rd and has lived up to the expectations. Many scouts are comparing DeCastro to that of Hutchinson.

It's not that QB, T, CB, DE (OLB), ILB are hard to find, it's just that teams tend to "rush" to get those folks earlier on in the draft rather than later, so their perceived value is higher.

Now that doesn't mean those positions are in actuality more important (other than QB). For decades baseball managers thought that a speedy, base-stealing type of player should be batting lead-off. But statistic folks have shown that on-base-percentage in more important than stolen bases.

The result it that how things are perceived is not necessarily the truth.

And yes guards can be found all over the draft, but if you have a gem like DeCastro or Pouncey or one of the other top-flight interior lineman then taking them before another team does could be considered a solid move.

DeCastro seems to be special for the position. I don't consider Upshaw or Ingram to be special. They're good players, but they haven't had comparisons made to the very best 3-4 OLBer's of the last decade, like DeCastro has been compared to the very best guards.

if a good Tackle has to have..lets say long arms, good feet, a certain build, a certain agility etc... or let me put it this way if a tackle has to have A, B C, D, E ,F, G to be truly elite but a guard needs only to have A, B ,C which would be harder to find?

gentleman I put before you this example knowing it in and of itself is a bit of a strawman but one based upon truth...some positions are historically harder to fill than others because the position demands more skill than others

 

[Doomsday101]

if a good Tackle has to have..lets say long arms, good feet, a certain build, a certain agility etc... or let me put it this way if a tackle has to have A, B C, D, E ,F, G to be truly elite but a guard needs only to have A, B ,C which would be harder to find?

gentleman I put before you this example knowing it in and of itself is a bit of a strawman but one based upon truth...some positions are historically harder to fill than others because the position demands more skill than others

To me this has nothing to do with what is harder to find. I have the 14th pick and a player who by most is considered one of the top prospect in this entire draft and compared to the level of Hutchinson and this player very well could be there at 14.

When the draft is done I want to get the best players in here not play the game of well we got an OLB who in other years he would have gone in the 2nd rd.

 

[Zaxor]

Elite guards aren't hard to come by? I have to disagree.

can you please tell me what the differance to the Count would be between a good guard an a elite guard...now please don't just spout off an example like LA was elite and Nate was good I want to know what it is in your mind that makes a guard elite rather than good and than I can answer your question.

 

[AsthmaField]

some positions are historically harder to fill than others because the position demands more skill than others

Yes, but it isn't a case where teams can ask for a guard ranked 9.0 out of 10 or a CB ranked 9.0 out of 10. They have to take what's available. We could have a 9.0 Guard or a 7.0 CB or pass rusher (for example).

In the case of DeCastro going at #14, the Cowboys would be using the fact that Guards tend to slide a little to their advantage. If a DE or CB ranked as highly as DeCastro were available they most assuredly wouldn't be available at #14.

Do the Cowboys have a choice of Clairborne or DeCastro at #14? Because if they did, I would be saying take the corner and get a guard later... much like you are.

But no way Clairborne is around at even pick #6.

As it is, it looks like Dallas will be choosing between maybe the 3rd best corner, the 3rd best pass rusher or the very best guard in this draft... a guard prospect that looks to be one of the best prospects of the past decade.

To me it's an easy choice. I'd take the best G prospect in a decade over the 3rd best corner or pass rusher in this draft every single time.

Why choose from a position that has already been picked over when you can have the best G available? Just because it's at a position that other teams draft highly as well?

 

[Zaxor]

To me this has nothing to do with what is harder to find. I have the 14th pick and a player who by most is considered one of the top prospect in this entire draft and compared to the level of Hutchinson and this player very well could be there at 14.

When the draft is done I want to get the best players in here not play the game of well we got an OLB who in other years he would have gone in the 2nd rd.

but dooms that is what we are talking about or at least what I am talking about...

extreme example but if you have the first pick in the draft and you spend it on a guard I don't care how good that guard is I am going to call you crazy...

what is the difference between a elite guard and a good guard...I am willing to bet the difference wouldn't make a hill of beans differance in the long run but the differance between a elite CB and a good CB can be staggering

an Elite CB can literally shut down one side of the field a good CB can limit the #1 receiving threat

where as in my mind an elite guard puts a guy on his butt almost every play the good guard moves the guy out the way almost every play