Dixie Flag controversy

[JoeKing]

I'd say it's a step in the right direction, not a diversion.

Nope, it accomplishes nothing good. It fans the flames of divisiveness and points blame.

 

[Manwiththeplan]

Nope, it accomplishes nothing.

While you've made it clear that most of us don't understand the flag from southerners point of view, I would say it's just as obvious that you don't understand the flag from an African American's point of view. So while you are right, that not everyone who flies the flag is racist (which honestly I never tried to imply), you simply have no idea how it feels to have the government you pay taxes to honor what you perceive as a symbol of oppression, human bondage and racism.

 

[iceberg]

The north tired of slavery but was not likely to go to war over it, unless the south seceded. The north was contempt to not allow new slave states into the union, one of the tipping points, was after 1850, not a single slave state was added (technically West Virginia, but they broke away from Virginia to eventually abolish slavery) and 6 free states were. Tariffs were another huge issue, but again, slavery factored into this as well. The north economically was leaving the south behind in large part due to high tariffs. Due to the high export costs and that fact that much the south produced was used domestically, the economic gap was widening. So while there were many things going on, most of those can be traced to slavery and even if you want to put I nicer face on it, the south's dependency on slavery.

never said i was trying to put a nicer face on it, only that it wasn't the ONLY reason and yes, i'm still learning a lot as i go so trying to keep my mind open.

 

[JoeKing]

While you've made it clear that most of us don't understand the flag from southerners point of view, I would say it's just as obvious that you don't understand the flag from an African American's point of view. So while you are right, that not everyone who flies the flag is racist (which honestly I never tried to imply), you simply have no idea how it feels to have the government you pay taxes to honor what you perceive as a symbol of oppression, human bondage and racism.

And there goes the race card. My white privilege (sarcastic tone) has shielded me from the wrongs that still occur to blacks so I can't possible understand or see myself in your shoes. And with that perspective, progress stops. We are hopelessly locked in differing perspectives that can never empathize for the other. Love one another is not possible. Setting aside differences is not possible because... well, you said it... I'm not capable of perceiving the African American point of view.

Do you really believe that load of bull you just served up?

 

[iceberg]

Nope, it accomplishes nothing good. It fans the flames of divisiveness and points blame.

and for those saying "no, its just the flag" now it's everything about the south. sharpton is demanding military bases now remove any south references to soldiers or the like. on one hand it's sharpton, but on the other, PC is running amok and they won't stop on their own.

 

[iceberg]

Interesting to read what the makers of the flag said it's meant to stand for...

where is that? would love to read it.

 

[Manwiththeplan]

And there goes the race card. My white privilege (sarcastic tone) has shielded me from the wrongs that still occur to blacks so I can't possible understand or see myself in your shoes.

Has nothing to do with you being white (which I didn't know until you said) and everything to do with you saying, it accomplishes nothing.

 

[iceberg]

Has nothing to do with you being white (which I didn't know until you said) and everything to do with you saying, it accomplishes nothing.

will racism be resolved?

 

[Manwiththeplan]

will racism be resolved?

if people on both sides can have a dialogue without either side jumping to conclusions, like the one we just saw, sure.

 

[iceberg]

if people on both sides can have a dialogue without either side jumping to conclusions, like the one we just saw, sure.

except that's difficult to do when you keep telling people what they can't do vs. have a dialog about it first and come to an agreement. that's not being done, now is it? therein lies the problem. it's not just the flag, now it's everything. won't be happy until all the south is pushed out of history and of sight.

won't fix a thing and only separates people more. there is no dialog going on, just demands. hard to compromise that way, i would think.

 

[JoeKing]

Has nothing to do with you being white (which I didn't know until you said) and everything to do with you saying, it accomplishes nothing.

You said I don't understand your "African American point of view". Breaking it down like that, how can you say it has nothing to do with me being white? Why else would I not be able to understand your point of view? Please explain and be careful not to contradict yourself.

 

[Manwiththeplan]

You said I don't understand your "African American point of view". Breaking it down like that, how can you say it has nothing to do with me being white? Why else would I not be able to understand your point of view? Please explain and be careful not to contradict yourself.

Did I say you were white? Because last I checked, there were more than two races. So not understanding how an African American feels on a subject, does not mean it is because of white privilege, it just means you can not or will not see it from their point of view and it was you saying that taking down the flag accomplishes nothing that lead me to that conclusion

 

[Manwiththeplan]

except that's difficult to do when you keep telling people what they can't do vs. have a dialog about it first and come to an agreement. that's not being done, now is it? therein lies the problem. it's not just the flag, now it's everything. won't be happy until all the south is pushed out of history and of sight.

won't fix a thing and only separates people more. there is no dialog going on, just demands. hard to compromise that way, i would think.

In all fairness, this was not the first time where people called for the flag to be removed. There was no honest dialogue, thus eventually people stepped in and made the decision

 

[JoeKing]

will racism be resolved?

No. There will always be good and bad in all its forms... one of which is racism. We can affect it's impact in our lives but it will always be out there somewhere.

 

[iceberg]

In all fairness, this was not the first time where people called for the flag to be removed. There was no honest dialogue, thus eventually people stepped in and made the decision

There was no honest dialog because of why? And it WAS MOVED once already, so someone must have been listening.

 

[iceberg]

No. There will always be good and bad in all its forms... one of which is racism. We can affect it's impact in our lives but it will always be out there somewhere.

Agreed. So this bulldog rush to force people how to feel n act is going to sooner or later cause bigger issues.

 

[Rockport]

I'm a Caucasian. When I lived in Florida and rode the bus to school (7th grade) some black kids would pick on me. My ex-wife had an affair with a black guy. So I have ample reasons to harbor resentments against the black race. However I'm intelligent enough to realize the transgressions of a few don't define the entirety of a group. Having served 20 years in the Marines where many of my peers were black opened my eyes to their perspectives. There's only 1 color in the Marines and it's green.

“You never really know a man until you understand things from his point of view, until you climb into his skin and walk around in it.”

Lee, Harper. To Kill a Mockingbird. J.B. Lippincott & Co., 1960

 

[JoeKing]

Did I say you were white? Because last I checked, there were more than two races. So not understanding how an African American feels on a subject, does not mean it is because of white privilege, it just means you can not or will not see it from their point of view and it was you saying that taking down the flag accomplishes nothing that lead me to that conclusion

Full disclosure... I am white and I am a father that loves his daughter very dearly. My daughter is bi-racial (black and white). I grew up in a black neighborhood. Most of my friends were black and I've never had a problem getting along with any race. And I never knew what white privilege was until I had it explained to me by a black man that then attempted to rob me when I was on my way to the bus station to join the military. People are people my friend. That's all I see is people everywhere I go. Some are good, some are bad but I've never seen that depend on race. Some people see me as a white man and instantly judge me to be a certain way. All I can do is love them and show them I am just another human being going through this human condition just like them. I am my brothers keeper. Being told I can not understand the African American point of view only serves to divide us brother.

 

[JoeKing]

I'm a Caucasian. When I lived in Florida and rode the bus to school (7th grade) some black kids would pick on me. My ex-wife had an affair with a black guy. So I have ample reasons to harbor resentments against the black race. However I'm intelligent enough to realize the transgressions of a few don't define the entirety of a group. Having served 20 years in the Marines where many of my peers were black opened my eyes to their perspectives. There's only 1 color in the Marines and it's green.

“You never really know a man until you understand things from his point of view, until you climb into his skin and walk around in it.”

Lee, Harper. To Kill a Mockingbird. J.B. Lippincott & Co., 1960

BTW, thank you for your service. Semper Fi.

 

[Fritsch_the_cat]

Well, when we have a football team in the nation's capitol that carries a racist name and has no intention of changing it I'm not sure what anyone expects. I've seen just as many blacks defend the use of it as whites, so it would be a mistake to think racism is a one way street and that the black community doesn't have problems in that area as well. It would also be a mistake to think racism is worse in the southern US than elsewhere, but we can't get away from the real issue here and what happened to bring this current flag issue to the forefront.

Myself, I was born and raised in Texas, lived here all my life and am of Scottish/Native American/African American decent. I guess I am a "mongrel" or one of the "mud people" as some refer to my kind as. I've had them say things like that right in front of me in ignorance because my appearance is basically that of a white man. So I've seen plenty of racists, and some of the worst I've known came from northern or western states, such as California, that many like to think are above this attitude. I've known some Europeans who are just as bad as well.

So when it comes to speaking of the problems with race relations let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I do believe a majority of humans are prejudice, most of us are in varying degrees. For the record I don't exclude myself there either. But I also believe there is a difference in being prejudice and being a racist. Prejudice people harbor feeling not necessarily of other races being inferior, but of mistrust and misunderstanding. Racists are simply hateful and will act on their hate, and not just by actually killing someone who is different but in their daily actions towards others who are different.

I have no idea what the solution is other than those who believe in respect for fellow humans beings, regardless of their race, not let progress be derailed by incidents such as this. And there has been progress. I firmly believe that if a majority of humans were indeed racists, most notably for this particular issue those in the southern US, nothing would have ever changed. However we must remember that even though huge strides have been made, we are not at the mountain top yet and are still a good distance from it. It is not something that is going to improve over-night, it's going to take many generations. There was still segregation and rampant, overt racism early in my life so we are not even one generation removed from government backed racism.

That brings me back to the subject of the southern US, where much of the government backed racism occured and at a later date than elsewhere. It is easy to dismiss this simply as ignorant people, which there are and have been, but one must understand that much of the reason why is rooted in the civil war. We tend to forget how the northern states had laid waste to the south at the end of the civil war. There was not much left but for scraps to fight over and the freed slaves were left to fend for themselves among those who had been their oppressors.

If you realize this it will cause little doubt as to what happens when you leave people with no choice but "me and my family or a freed slave". This is what helped entrench racism in the south, much of it was a matter of survival (ever wonder why southerners were known for eating things like possum or squirrell?) and even though white southerners had lost virtually everything, they still had more than a recently freed people who had neither pot to piss in nor window to throw it out. Because the north had no plan on helping the freed slaves (actually they did they just didn't go through with them) other than a boat trip back to Liberia. When your biggest concern is where is my next meal coming from it is easy to forget about doing what is right. It was that way in the south for a very long time after the war and the economic situation in the south didn't really vastly improve until after the Great Depression.

That's not to excuse anyone's actions, those days are long over. If not for their prejudices they could have worked together immediately after the war to improve the situation for everyone. It's not meant to blame any one faction either. It's just my opinion that race and over-coming not only racism but our own prejudices is a complicated issue with no single answer. Being a "history buff" I believe we need to first understand how we got to where we are now and just as importantly to not forget how far we have come.

I know that even though I am guilty of my own ignorant prejudices at times, I often hear my own mother (who is white with distant African American ancestry) say things that can only make me shake my head. I realize that she comes from a different generation than I do however, when these thoughts were accepted and believed true. But the fact I see these things said as wrong indicates to me that we are progressing as a whole. I also realize I am still a work in progress and need improvement in my thinking.

I watched the bail hearing for this thing (I will not refer to it in human terms, it is evil incarnate) that killed the people in South Carolina and it brought home how less of a person I am than others. These victim's families, who just the day before had their souls ripped out, were still able to offer forgiveness and concern for this evil creature. It showed me how much better of a human being they are than I. Even though I am not related to the victims the best I could have offered him would be a "rot in hell you son of a *****".

I don't consider myself as much on "religion" in the normal sense of the word, my beliefs are a combination of christain teaching and native american beliefs. I guess you can say I made my own. I do heed words from the christian bible however, such as "God works in mysterious ways, this too you will not understand".

So in situations such as this church shooting we can only hope some good comes from it though it is hard to imagine how such a terrible thing can accomplish good. That would be the best way to honor the people who died simply because of ignorant hate. If that happens and it helps progress us further down the long road we face, their deaths will not have been in vain and the evil hate that caused their deaths will have been defeated.

As for the issue of the confederate flag the only reason I would object to it being used is if you fly it for the wrong reason. If you put it there to honor the people of the south who died under that flag, that's fine. But if it is there for any other political type statement it should be removed. For too long the people of the south have let the meaning of that flag become corrupted to signal what it is not, and they must try to reclaim the true meaning of the flag if they want others to respect it.

Southerners either have to start speaking to those who use the flag as a symbol of anything other than honoring the memory of the people of the Confederate states and try to get them to understand the importance of that flag to our history and how the misuse and misunderstanding of it's true meaning has caused it to be looked upon as a symbol for what it never was, and that is hate. It wasn't all about slavery for those who died in battle, about as many northern soldiers fought for slavery as did southern, which is to say, very few. The Union troops fought to keep the Union together, and the Confederate boys fought to not be in the union.

Most don't even understand that it isn't the flag of the confederacy anyway, it's the Virginia battle standard and was adopted all around because the actual confederate flag looked too much like a Union flag causing confusion, and the two flags adopted later to change that were white with a small Virginia battle standard, but it could be easily confused for a white flag, so the Virginia battle flag was universally used by southern troops, mostly out of necessity. Most don't know the Virginia battle standard is actually a St George's Cross. Some say it's based on the flag of Scotland due to the heavy Scottish population of the south, but it's also said to be religiously based and has nothing to do with the Saltire. The only reason anyone really knows anything about it is because after the war, Confederate veterans used it during their ceremonies and they did so because that is the flag most men died under and they thought it would be disrespectful to the Union to fly the Confederate states flag.

So all I would say is, I have no objection to it's use, as long as it's done for the right reason but the folks who do fly it for the right reason have to understand how they themselves have let it become corrupt and the mis-use of it by some to symbolize hate has to be put to a stop.


This is just my two cents on the situation, even though that is more than it is worth.