Dixie Flag controversy

[Manwiththeplan]

You're right much of what I have learned has come from books, but does that make the books wrong?

If so we could render beliefs that Hitler was "good" and the Holocaust never existed because books state the opposite.

No, my entire point is two books can say two different things, doesn't make either one wrong. I just don't think what you said was telling the entire truth. Yes the vast majority of those that fought in the civil war did not have slaves, but that does not mean they did not have an interest in keeping slavery alive

 

[Manwiththeplan]

Ah, the old, I dont agree with what you've stated so its only valid to you but not to me argument. The mindset that says facts dont matter unless they're facts I like so Ill try to discredit them by attempting to drag them down to my level.

I never attempted to discredit what he said, but I would say it just isn't the entire narrative.

 

[WPBCowboysFan]

I never attempted to discredit what he said,

Uh, . . . . . . . . . . yea you did. You love revisionist history it appears.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

except as far as i know (wicki tell me if i'm misunderstanding) the north wasn't as concerned about slavery as it was keeping the union together. there were a LOT of different things going on at the time and i feel like i need to work to understand them all as best i can before i can honestly answer that. so i can only say, i don't know.

That's a valid point. Many in the north didn't give a toss about slavery one way or the other, they were hell-bent to preserve the union. Of course you did have many in the north who abhorred the whole notion of slavery, but they were just one group.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Slavery certainly made up a part of it and the flag has come to represent hatred over the years by a certain minority. You can't deny that and that's the ultimate point of this whole discussion.

You bet slavery was part of it, but it was as much of a "Don't tell us how to live our lives" by southerners as it was anything else.

 

[iceberg]

Shouldn't be a matter of dispute. The truth is many in the north were pro slavery too, they just cared more about the union's side of other issues. Doesn't make the Confederate flag any more racist than the American flag. Lincoln stated if he could have ended the ACW and kept the institution of slavery intact, he would have done it.

and i keep learning. i'll go look this up, of course, so any links are always welcome. not that i don't trust you - just want to read more. good day for it.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

No, my entire point is two books can say two different things, doesn't make either one wrong. I just don't think what you said was telling the entire truth. Yes the vast majority of those that fought in the civil war did not have slaves, but that does not mean they did not have an interest in keeping slavery alive

You bet there was certainly a faction that wanted to maintain slavery.

But there was also a faction (and probably much larger) that simply could not accept the federal government telling them what to do.

 

[iceberg]

btw - i hope we can all keep this discussion civil and keep it going. i'm learning a lot on both sides of this.

 

[Rockport]

You bet slavery was part of it, but it was as much of a "Don't tell us how to live our lives" by southerners as it was anything else.

I agree but again the point of the issue is what the flag has come to represent over the years since the civil war. You can still fly your flag but many now are not wanting government entities to fly it because of what it's come to represent. Those with an agenda are just bent out of shape over recent events. Overreaction caused by certain media outlets.

 

[JoeKing]

I'm glad some of you are taking this opportunity to learn something about our past. I have been a history buff my whole life (pushing 50 yrs) and find our American history fascinating.

 

[Manwiththeplan]

except as far as i know (wicki tell me if i'm misunderstanding) the north wasn't as concerned about slavery as it was keeping the union together. there were a LOT of different things going on at the time and i feel like i need to work to understand them all as best i can before i can honestly answer that. so i can only say, i don't know.

The north tired of slavery but was not likely to go to war over it, unless the south seceded. The north was contempt to not allow new slave states into the union, one of the tipping points, was after 1850, not a single slave state was added (technically West Virginia, but they broke away from Virginia to eventually abolish slavery) and 6 free states were. Tariffs were another huge issue, but again, slavery factored into this as well. The north economically was leaving the south behind in large part due to high tariffs. Due to the high export costs and that fact that much the south produced was used domestically, the economic gap was widening. So while there were many things going on, most of those can be traced to slavery and even if you want to put I nicer face on it, the south's dependency on slavery.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

I agree but again the point of the issue is what the flag has come to represent over the years since the civil war. You can still fly your flag but many now are not wanting government entities to fly it because of what it's come to represent. Those with an agenda are just bent out of shape over recent events. Overreaction caused by certain media outlets.

Can't disagree with your post Amber.

 

[Manwiththeplan]

Uh, . . . . . . . . . . yea you did. You love revisionist history it appears.

where did I say he was wrong? where did I say the majority of soldiers had slaves or that the entire war was about slavery? I'd say the prevalent cause was slavery and I think he would disagree, but I have not attempted to discredit him

 

[MichaelWinicki]

The north tired of slavery but was not likely to go to war over it, unless the south seceded. The north was contempt to not allow new slave states into the union, one of the tipping points, was after 1850, not a single slave state was added (technically West Virginia, but they broke away from Virginia to eventually abolish slavery) and 6 free states were. Tariffs were another huge issue, but again, slavery factored into this as well. The north economically was leaving the south behind in large part due to high tariffs. Due to the high export costs and that fact that much the south produced was used domestically, the economic gap was widening. So while there were many things going on, most of those can be traced to slavery and even if you want to put I nicer face on it, the south's dependency on slavery.

You're right. The south did depend on it, keeping in mind the argument at the time wasn't (for most) the abolishment of it, but to limit the expansion of it.

 

[JoeKing]

To this day we still have many schools, roads, bridges named after some of the great confederate war generals. My elementary schools was named after Confederate General Albert Sidney Johnston, the highest ranking general on either side to be killed in battle (Shiloh).

 

[MichaelWinicki]

where did I say he was wrong? where did I say the majority of soldiers had slaves or that the entire war was about slavery? I'd say the prevalent cause was slavery and I think he would disagree, but I have not attempted to discredit him

Slavery was the mechanism, which was wrapped in whole, "Who's the dog and who's the tail?" With the states and the central government tussling over the question.

The thing that many can't wrap their arms around is the difference prior to the ACW of how the states and the federal government interacted. It was much, much different then.

Just as the colonies abhorred being governed by a government located in the UK, the same mindset existed against the federal government, which was viewed as nothing more than another "governing body from afar" trying to dictate to the individual states what they could and could not do.

 

[Rockport]

To this day we still have many schools, roads, bridges named after some of the great confederate war generals. My elementary schools was named after Confederate General Albert Sidney Johnston, the highest ranking general on either side to be killed in battle (Shiloh).

I'm not advocating changing those names. I'm only advocating the removal of the flag from government entities. Nothing more, nothing less. Those that are advocating changing the names of schools, bridges, etc. are over reacting and I believe that all that noise will go away eventually with nothing having been done.

 

[Lodeus]

Interesting to read what the makers of the flag said it's meant to stand for...

 

[JoeKing]

I'm not advocating changing those names. I'm only advocating the removal of the flag from government entities. Nothing more, nothing less. Those that are advocating changing the names of schools, bridges, etc. are over reacting and I believe that all that noise will go away eventually with nothing having been done.

I hope you are right however, racism today is still alive and well. Removal of this flag only serves as a diversion from taking real action to fix this. Love for each other is the only path to correct our hateful past. I don't hear that much from today's self-proclaimed civil rights leaders.

 

[Manwiththeplan]

Removal of this flag only serves as a diversion from taking real action to fix this.

I'd say it's a step in the right direction, not a diversion.