Dixie Flag controversy

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JoeKing

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Well, when we have a football team in the nation's capitol that carries a racist name and has no intention of changing it I'm not sure what anyone expects. I've seen just as many blacks defend the use of it as whites, so it would be a mistake to think racism is a one way street and that the black community doesn't have problems in that area as well. It would also be a mistake to think racism is worse in the southern US than elsewhere, but we can't get away from the real issue here and what happened to bring this current flag issue to the forefront.

Myself, I was born and raised in Texas, lived here all my life and am of Scottish/Native American/African American decent. I guess I am a "mongrel" or one of the "mud people" as some refer to my kind as. I've had them say things like that right in front of me in ignorance because my appearance is basically that of a white man. So I've seen plenty of racists, and some of the worst I've known came from northern or western states, such as California, that many like to think are above this attitude. I've known some Europeans who are just as bad as well.

So when it comes to speaking of the problems with race relations let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I do believe a majority of humans are prejudice, most of us are in varying degrees. For the record I don't exclude myself there either. But I also believe there is a difference in being prejudice and being a racist. Prejudice people harbor feeling not necessarily of other races being inferior, but of mistrust and misunderstanding. Racists are simply hateful and will act on their hate, and not just by actually killing someone who is different but in their daily actions towards others who are different.

I have no idea what the solution is other than those who believe in respect for fellow humans beings, regardless of their race, not let progress be derailed by incidents such as this. And there has been progress. I firmly believe that if a majority of humans were indeed racists, most notably for this particular issue those in the southern US, nothing would have ever changed. However we must remember that even though huge strides have been made, we are not at the mountain top yet and are still a good distance from it. It is not something that is going to improve over-night, it's going to take many generations. There was still segregation and rampant, overt racism early in my life so we are not even one generation removed from government backed racism.

That brings me back to the subject of the southern US, where much of the government backed racism occured and at a later date than elsewhere. It is easy to dismiss this simply as ignorant people, which there are and have been, but one must understand that much of the reason why is rooted in the civil war. We tend to forget how the northern states had laid waste to the south at the end of the civil war. There was not much left but for scraps to fight over and the freed slaves were left to fend for themselves among those who had been their oppressors.

If you realize this it will cause little doubt as to what happens when you leave people with no choice but "me and my family or a freed slave". This is what helped entrench racism in the south, much of it was a matter of survival (ever wonder why southerners were known for eating things like possum or squirrell?) and even though white southerners had lost virtually everything, they still had more than a recently freed people who had neither pot to piss in nor window to throw it out. Because the north had no plan on helping the freed slaves (actually they did they just didn't go through with them) other than a boat trip back to Liberia. When your biggest concern is where is my next meal coming from it is easy to forget about doing what is right. It was that way in the south for a very long time after the war and the economic situation in the south didn't really vastly improve until after the Great Depression.

That's not to excuse anyone's actions, those days are long over. If not for their prejudices they could have worked together immediately after the war to improve the situation for everyone. It's not meant to blame any one faction either. It's just my opinion that race and over-coming not only racism but our own prejudices is a complicated issue with no single answer. Being a "history buff" I believe we need to first understand how we got to where we are now and just as importantly to not forget how far we have come.

I know that even though I am guilty of my own ignorant prejudices at times, I often hear my own mother (who is white with distant African American ancestry) say things that can only make me shake my head. I realize that she comes from a different generation than I do however, when these thoughts were accepted and believed true. But the fact I see these things said as wrong indicates to me that we are progressing as a whole. I also realize I am still a work in progress and need improvement in my thinking.

I watched the bail hearing for this thing (I will not refer to it in human terms, it is evil incarnate) that killed the people in South Carolina and it brought home how less of a person I am than others. These victim's families, who just the day before had their souls ripped out, were still able to offer forgiveness and concern for this evil creature. It showed me how much better of a human being they are than I. Even though I am not related to the victims the best I could have offered him would be a "rot in hell you son of a *****".

I don't consider myself as much on "religion" in the normal sense of the word, my beliefs are a combination of christain teaching and native american beliefs. I guess you can say I made my own. I do heed words from the christian bible however, such as "God works in mysterious ways, this too you will not understand".

So in situations such as this church shooting we can only hope some good comes from it though it is hard to imagine how such a terrible thing can accomplish good. That would be the best way to honor the people who died simply because of ignorant hate. If that happens and it helps progress us further down the long road we face, their deaths will not have been in vain and the evil hate that caused their deaths will have been defeated.

As for the issue of the confederate flag the only reason I would object to it being used is if you fly it for the wrong reason. If you put it there to honor the people of the south who died under that flag, that's fine. But if it is there for any other political type statement it should be removed. For too long the people of the south have let the meaning of that flag become corrupted to signal what it is not, and they must try to reclaim the true meaning of the flag if they want others to respect it.

Southerners either have to start speaking to those who use the flag as a symbol of anything other than honoring the memory of the people of the Confederate states and try to get them to understand the importance of that flag to our history and how the misuse and misunderstanding of it's true meaning has caused it to be looked upon as a symbol for what it never was, and that is hate. It wasn't all about slavery for those who died in battle, about as many northern soldiers fought for slavery as did southern, which is to say, very few. The Union troops fought to keep the Union together, and the Confederate boys fought to not be in the union.

Most don't even understand that it isn't the flag of the confederacy anyway, it's the Virginia battle standard and was adopted all around because the actual confederate flag looked too much like a Union flag causing confusion, and the two flags adopted later to change that were white with a small Virginia battle standard, but it could be easily confused for a white flag, so the Virginia battle flag was universally used by southern troops, mostly out of necessity. Most don't know the Virginia battle standard is actually a St George's Cross. Some say it's based on the flag of Scotland due to the heavy Scottish population of the south, but it's also said to be religiously based and has nothing to do with the Saltire. The only reason anyone really knows anything about it is because after the war, Confederate veterans used it during their ceremonies and they did so because that is the flag most men died under and they thought it would be disrespectful to the Union to fly the Confederate states flag.

So all I would say is, I have no objection to it's use, as long as it's done for the right reason but the folks who do fly it for the right reason have to understand how they themselves have let it become corrupt and the mis-use of it by some to symbolize hate has to be put to a stop.


This is just my two cents on the situation, even though that is more than it is worth.

Excellent read, thank you for sharing.
 

trickblue

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Off topic, but not true. Not even close.

It depends... are you basing it on the U3 Scale or the U6 Scale...

Plus the current admin revises it constantly... It doesn't matter what side of the political spectrum you fall on, the numbers are manipulated...
 

Rockport

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It depends... are you basing it on the U3 Scale or the U6 Scale...

Plus the current admin revises it constantly... It doesn't matter what side of the political spectrum you fall on, the numbers are manipulated...

The scale of reality. The economy is growing no matter what scale you use.
 

iceberg

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Well, when we have a football team in the nation's capitol that carries a racist name and has no intention of changing it I'm not sure what anyone expects. I've seen just as many blacks defend the use of it as whites, so it would be a mistake to think racism is a one way street and that the black community doesn't have problems in that area as well. It would also be a mistake to think racism is worse in the southern US than elsewhere, but we can't get away from the real issue here and what happened to bring this current flag issue to the forefront.

Myself, I was born and raised in Texas, lived here all my life and am of Scottish/Native American/African American decent. I guess I am a "mongrel" or one of the "mud people" as some refer to my kind as. I've had them say things like that right in front of me in ignorance because my appearance is basically that of a white man. So I've seen plenty of racists, and some of the worst I've known came from northern or western states, such as California, that many like to think are above this attitude. I've known some Europeans who are just as bad as well.

So when it comes to speaking of the problems with race relations let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I do believe a majority of humans are prejudice, most of us are in varying degrees. For the record I don't exclude myself there either. But I also believe there is a difference in being prejudice and being a racist. Prejudice people harbor feeling not necessarily of other races being inferior, but of mistrust and misunderstanding. Racists are simply hateful and will act on their hate, and not just by actually killing someone who is different but in their daily actions towards others who are different.

I have no idea what the solution is other than those who believe in respect for fellow humans beings, regardless of their race, not let progress be derailed by incidents such as this. And there has been progress. I firmly believe that if a majority of humans were indeed racists, most notably for this particular issue those in the southern US, nothing would have ever changed. However we must remember that even though huge strides have been made, we are not at the mountain top yet and are still a good distance from it. It is not something that is going to improve over-night, it's going to take many generations. There was still segregation and rampant, overt racism early in my life so we are not even one generation removed from government backed racism.

That brings me back to the subject of the southern US, where much of the government backed racism occured and at a later date than elsewhere. It is easy to dismiss this simply as ignorant people, which there are and have been, but one must understand that much of the reason why is rooted in the civil war. We tend to forget how the northern states had laid waste to the south at the end of the civil war. There was not much left but for scraps to fight over and the freed slaves were left to fend for themselves among those who had been their oppressors.

If you realize this it will cause little doubt as to what happens when you leave people with no choice but "me and my family or a freed slave". This is what helped entrench racism in the south, much of it was a matter of survival (ever wonder why southerners were known for eating things like possum or squirrell?) and even though white southerners had lost virtually everything, they still had more than a recently freed people who had neither pot to piss in nor window to throw it out. Because the north had no plan on helping the freed slaves (actually they did they just didn't go through with them) other than a boat trip back to Liberia. When your biggest concern is where is my next meal coming from it is easy to forget about doing what is right. It was that way in the south for a very long time after the war and the economic situation in the south didn't really vastly improve until after the Great Depression.

That's not to excuse anyone's actions, those days are long over. If not for their prejudices they could have worked together immediately after the war to improve the situation for everyone. It's not meant to blame any one faction either. It's just my opinion that race and over-coming not only racism but our own prejudices is a complicated issue with no single answer. Being a "history buff" I believe we need to first understand how we got to where we are now and just as importantly to not forget how far we have come.

I know that even though I am guilty of my own ignorant prejudices at times, I often hear my own mother (who is white with distant African American ancestry) say things that can only make me shake my head. I realize that she comes from a different generation than I do however, when these thoughts were accepted and believed true. But the fact I see these things said as wrong indicates to me that we are progressing as a whole. I also realize I am still a work in progress and need improvement in my thinking.

I watched the bail hearing for this thing (I will not refer to it in human terms, it is evil incarnate) that killed the people in South Carolina and it brought home how less of a person I am than others. These victim's families, who just the day before had their souls ripped out, were still able to offer forgiveness and concern for this evil creature. It showed me how much better of a human being they are than I. Even though I am not related to the victims the best I could have offered him would be a "rot in hell you son of a *****".

I don't consider myself as much on "religion" in the normal sense of the word, my beliefs are a combination of christain teaching and native american beliefs. I guess you can say I made my own. I do heed words from the christian bible however, such as "God works in mysterious ways, this too you will not understand".

So in situations such as this church shooting we can only hope some good comes from it though it is hard to imagine how such a terrible thing can accomplish good. That would be the best way to honor the people who died simply because of ignorant hate. If that happens and it helps progress us further down the long road we face, their deaths will not have been in vain and the evil hate that caused their deaths will have been defeated.

As for the issue of the confederate flag the only reason I would object to it being used is if you fly it for the wrong reason. If you put it there to honor the people of the south who died under that flag, that's fine. But if it is there for any other political type statement it should be removed. For too long the people of the south have let the meaning of that flag become corrupted to signal what it is not, and they must try to reclaim the true meaning of the flag if they want others to respect it.

Southerners either have to start speaking to those who use the flag as a symbol of anything other than honoring the memory of the people of the Confederate states and try to get them to understand the importance of that flag to our history and how the misuse and misunderstanding of it's true meaning has caused it to be looked upon as a symbol for what it never was, and that is hate. It wasn't all about slavery for those who died in battle, about as many northern soldiers fought for slavery as did southern, which is to say, very few. The Union troops fought to keep the Union together, and the Confederate boys fought to not be in the union.

Most don't even understand that it isn't the flag of the confederacy anyway, it's the Virginia battle standard and was adopted all around because the actual confederate flag looked too much like a Union flag causing confusion, and the two flags adopted later to change that were white with a small Virginia battle standard, but it could be easily confused for a white flag, so the Virginia battle flag was universally used by southern troops, mostly out of necessity. Most don't know the Virginia battle standard is actually a St George's Cross. Some say it's based on the flag of Scotland due to the heavy Scottish population of the south, but it's also said to be religiously based and has nothing to do with the Saltire. The only reason anyone really knows anything about it is because after the war, Confederate veterans used it during their ceremonies and they did so because that is the flag most men died under and they thought it would be disrespectful to the Union to fly the Confederate states flag.

So all I would say is, I have no objection to it's use, as long as it's done for the right reason but the folks who do fly it for the right reason have to understand how they themselves have let it become corrupt and the mis-use of it by some to symbolize hate has to be put to a stop.


This is just my two cents on the situation, even though that is more than it is worth.

Bravo. Put some great thoughts n points in my head.
 

JoeyBoy718

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Just a general observation... The people who get the most upset when they're no longer allowed to say or do certain things because they might offend people are typically the people who get the most upset that certain groups of people are allowed to say or do whatever makes them happy... Go figure.
 

JohnnyTheFox

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I find it funny{sad actually} that when the pic of that nutjob was made public the first knee jerk reaction was predictable. Ban the flag and ban guns. I am so sick of all the SJW{social justice warriors} crying about this and that as well as being offended by just about everything under the sun.
 

trickblue

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You need to learn the difference between GDP and GNP... and adjusted values...
 

Rockport

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You need to learn the difference between GDP and GNP... and adjusted values...

I know very well the difference. The economy is growing. It's the envy of every other country in the world. And the US unemployment rate is 5.5%. In 2009 it was 10.1%.
 

trickblue

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U3 v U6... Done with your propaganda...

You won't even bother to look it up...
 

Rockport

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I find it funny{sad actually} that when the pic of that nutjob was made public the first knee jerk reaction was predictable. Ban the flag and ban guns. I am so sick of all the SJW{social justice warriors} crying about this and that as well as being offended by just about everything under the sun.

The push to ban the confederate flag has been going on for years. Horrible attempt at commenting on this thread.
 

trickblue

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I already refuted them... you just are too lazy to google them...

It's guys like you that make me glad I'm not a mod here anymore...

If you want to debate, stop bringing balloons... it's OBVIOUS you are doing no research...
 

DFWJC

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And I can't spell it out for you any easier, GDP.

Not my argument, but the economy (and even worse, the Fed) have been mismanaged to a point where the repercussions are going to eventually be epically horrific. That's not a political comment, as both parties have to answer for this.

It's almost as if it's a concerted effort to wreck the whole thing just be able to rebuild into some other theoretical utopian ideal (that has never succeeded before) unrelated to what made it the worlds strongest economy for decades.

Again, both sides have fault.
 
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