DMN: Cowlishaw: Cowboys have almost nothing to show from '08, '09 and '12 drafts

[jterrell]

Since when does a guy starting gams equate to "good draft?" I'm confused by this concept. You could have a horrible team because of past drafts and then he new guys drafted are forced to start. It doesn't mean they are good drafts or good players. It means they are serviceable enough to bounce around the NFL an to be used. The point of the draft it to see a Witten or a Ware or a Tyron or a Dez and say..."look, this guy is a top contributor." The idea isn't to say "look 4 out of 5 still are warm bodies in the league and they played for us some too." 2009 was the year Jerry decided we needed special teamers and depth for our SB run. 2008 was only 5-6 years back. Despite the 3.5 average thrown out you wouldn't expect a whole draft to disappear without one guy still being meaningful on your team.

could have stopped posting at confused....

sorry couldn't help myself there. no offense.

again anyone that wants to talk impact show me the metric you are using.
simply saying you want more is absolutely meaningless.
i do get what you guys are saying, i just dont see how what you are saying means anything.
i.e. where is the logical argument backed by any form of evidence.

if drafting a ring of honor guy is the standard by which drafts are graded then you shouldn't bother grading them.
we've held about 45 draft... ring of honor is awfully small... especially for just players.

dallas' issue right now isn't a lack of ring of honor candidates, it is a lack of depth and legit NFL players behind the stars.

i am no a fan of Goose in nay way whatsoever EXCEPT about drafts.
And with drafts Goose always tells you you have to grade the picks after the early rounds the heaviest.
Hitting on NFL player isn those rounds is the make or break part of drafting.
Every team gets lucky and unlucky in early rounds as almost every team has the same ugys on the board then

bad drafts are like 2009 when you draft guys who can't make rosters be they good rosters or bad rosters.
when you get nothing from 12 picks but a kicker and career clipboard holder who is awful when finally in a game that is truly bad.

 

[Miller]

could have stopped posting at confused....

sorry couldn't help myself there. no offense.

again anyone that wants to talk impact show me the metric you are using.
simply saying you want more is absolutely meaningless.
i do get what you guys are saying, i just dont see how what you are saying means anything.
i.e. where is the logical argument backed by any form of evidence.

if drafting a ring of honor guy is the standard by which drafts are graded then you shouldn't bother grading them.
we've held about 45 draft... ring of honor is awfully small... especially for just players.

dallas' issue right now isn't a lack of ring of honor candidates, it is a lack of depth and legit NFL players behind the stars.

i am no a fan of Goose in nay way whatsoever EXCEPT about drafts.
And with drafts Goose always tells you you have to grade the picks after the early rounds the heaviest.
Hitting on NFL player isn those rounds is the make or break part of drafting.
Every team gets lucky and unlucky in early rounds as almost every team has the same ugys on the board then

bad drafts are like 2009 when you draft guys who can't make rosters be they good rosters or bad rosters.
when you get nothing from 12 picks but a kicker and career clipboard holder who is awful when finally in a game that is truly bad.

None taken

I don't expect Ring of Honor guys. But you laid out pretty well what I expect. A team that is looking to fit guys to realistically be able to come in and contribute to the way that team is built....whether it is as a starter in a big position of need or as depth that can contribute and help a strong team get stronger. That is where I think Jerry fails. Some of these guys might be talented and might go on elsewhere and get some starts but to me that means a) they weren't a fit with our sytem and team and b) you failed to develop them.

We all agree 2009 was a disaster because Jerry overestimated where this team was at personnel wise. I think that is the issue with many of his drafts. Let's take Choice for example. They had Barber at the time. They got Felix, who was also a question because he had skill but hadn't started..like some other backs taken after him. So what is your plan taking a 3rd back there? He got some good minutes here but was that the most resourceful position where you needed a player a that time. Same with Bennett. Witten was 26 at the time. Bennett was the fit? So these guys either are gone an not playing much or they didn't fit our scheme and plan. Your explanation makes sense. But Jerry tries to take depth when we need playmakers elsewhere. That is my problem. These guys go elsewhere or weren't good to start and then we have neither a long term answer or anyone whose role as a backup grew.

 

[xwalker]

I agree with you, that's why I called it the CZ paradox. Just looking at that list, something really jumps out at me that we don't discuss. It isn't always about talent, but about the strategy. Felix Jones was drafted to be a backup, or part time player, behind Marion Barber. Martellus Bennett, same thing.

Honestly, I don't care if they are still in the league, that is a stupid argument. That is like saying you bought Microsoft stock in 1986 sold in in 1987 for a small profit, but that's OK because it has grown exponentially since then. Why are we proud of the fact that we drafted guys who didn't last any longer than their rookie deals? Don't try to sell me on the fact that they would be on a second contract, because Scandrick is still here, and most of those guys would have been signed to paltry sums, due to their lack of production/development here.

If they had been good picks, then they would have been expensive to re-sign. Once they are past their initial contract, they're just another free agent.

The primary value of draft picks is the time during their initial contract. If they were a bad pick, but the team would have had cap room to re-sign them if they were a good pick, then the team has cap room to sign another team's free agent.

 

[jobberone]

You lease players now

 

[DavidS]

Cowlinshaw is a slob, who cares what he thinks

 

[CATCH17]

There are literally people on here who could draft much better than the Cowboys do.

 

[TheDude]

Only rivaled by his father.

But hey, only a few short years ago he was the savior in waiting. Heck, it was just last offseason when several on this board were pretending he was the real GM in Dallas and that somehow that was a good thing.

He grew up around the game, ya know. Been working personnel for nearly two decades.

Who did he learn from?

 

[jterrell]

None taken

I don't expect Ring of Honor guys. But you laid out pretty well what I expect. A team that is looking to fit guys to realistically be able to come in and contribute to the way that team is built....whether it is as a starter in a big position of need or as depth that can contribute and help a strong team get stronger. That is where I think Jerry fails. Some of these guys might be talented and might go on elsewhere and get some starts but to me that means a) they weren't a fit with our sytem and team and b) you failed to develop them.

We all agree 2009 was a disaster because Jerry overestimated where this team was at personnel wise. I think that is the issue with many of his drafts. Let's take Choice for example. They had Barber at the time. They got Felix, who was also a question because he had skill but hadn't started..like some other backs taken after him. So what is your plan taking a 3rd back there? He got some good minutes here but was that the most resourceful position where you needed a player a that time. Same with Bennett. Witten was 26 at the time. Bennett was the fit? So these guys either are gone an not playing much or they didn't fit our scheme and plan. Your explanation makes sense. But Jerry tries to take depth when we need playmakers elsewhere. That is my problem. These guys go elsewhere or weren't good to start and then we have neither a long term answer or anyone whose role as a backup grew.

I get what you are saying about positions and fit.
I certainly would select different players in a re-draft.

But the truth is I would gladly re-draft Bennett. He was a HUGE part of why Witten is so great.
Without Bennett, Witten has to pass block instead of run routes a ton more.

If anything Dallas should have moved on from Barber to Felix/Choice and saved a boatload of cap space.

While I absolutely consider position in first couple rounds by round 4 you have to take BPA.

Green Bay took Aaron Rodgers in round 1 when they had Favre winning Super Bowls.

You always gotta take real talent when it is there.

In the last 10 years the absolute best non-starters for this football team have probably been martellus bennett and orlando scandrick.
I think those 2 guys had extreme value.
I don't think it was a coincidence the year we lost Bennett, Free was so bad we all prayed for him to be cut.

And still end of day you gotta look at drafts as to some combination of talent and effect on team.
I used games played and games started here in dallas.
I could have added/used pro bowls made or some other trackable metric but didn't consider that a legit marker.

I think it more than fair to say if we had won a SB with those guys on the roster not a single soul would claim it was a bad draft class because so many guys did contribute to the football team if not in a lead role anywhere.

 

[Risen Star]

Who did he learn from?

Don't be jealous, hater.

You don't get 20 years of personnel experience in this league without having a rich father the qualifications.

He's legit.

 

[birdwells1]

You didn't need a full time starter with Marion Barber on the team. You needed a change of pace back. Now you can argue that a change of pace back that high was ridiculous. I won't disagree. But Felix was a 1st round talent. He wasn't a reach by any means talent wise. He may have been a reach as far as what we already had on this team.

Imo he was a reach, he was a unproven commodity and his "first round" credentials were not warranted. I never thought he was a first round talent and his career so far has proven that to be true.

Change of pace back in the first round, all you have to do is say it out loud and see how idiotic it sounds.

 

[wileedog]

But the truth is I would gladly re-draft Bennett. He was a HUGE part of why Witten is so great.
Without Bennett, Witten has to pass block instead of run routes a ton more..

Yeah, in 2012 the first year without the indispensable Marty B Witten only managed to get 110 receptions with all that blocking he had to do.

 

[wick]

2008 had a few decent players. They are just playing for other teams.

You can't parlay two first-round picks into Felix Jones and Mike Jenkins, neither of whom you offer a second contract to.

 

[KingintheNorth]

someone here of course thinks the 2009 drafts of Denver and Seattle validate our horrible Front Office. Yet, no mention of those teams replacing GM's and improved drafts and free agent signings from that point on.

Oh, by the way, those teams have shown gradual improvement each year as well. We have not shown any.

I know, I know...injuries, bad luck, and accidentally icing our own kicker. Darn the misfortune.

 

[TheCount]

You can't parlay two first-round picks into Felix Jones and Mike Jenkins, neither of whom you offer a second contract to.

I still think drafting a RB in the 1st is a waste of a first rounder.

 

[31RoyW31]

The players from the 2008 and 2009 drafts would have already been on their 2nd contracts. With the CBA, the primary value of draft picks is when they are on their initial contract. Other than QB, teams can sign equivalent free agents for the same cost as re-signing their own free agents. There is no significant advantage in re-signing their own free agents vs signing another teams free agents.

I hate that about the current system. They would have to rework the percentages between the players and owners, but I wish the system had some built in advantage for resigning your own player vs another teams free agents. For example 90% of the salary counts against the cap if it's your own guy and 110% of the salary counts against the cap if it's another teams. That type of system would still keep the "Steve Young's" of the league from being a backup for years, but allow the chance to build a core team through the draft and keep it for a period of years.

 

[Section446]

Not really surprised. I'm not willing to put in the countless hours it would take to research it, but I imagine that most teams have plenty of similar drafts.

 

[arglebargle]

No, that was ONE of his points.... The other was that they weren't good drafts. The poster I responded to said Seattle and Denver didn't have good drafts in 08 and 09 either. I stated that they have changed GMs since then. Not sure how that's not relevant.

Wasn't Seattle's draft in 2008 run by genius NFL coach Mike Holmgren? Who went on to Cleveland to lead their great drafts?

 

[arglebargle]

What I have learned from this thread is that NFL players only last 3.5 years. Therefore it is okay to screw up drafts with players you get next to nothing out of for those 3.5 years. Got it.

What I've learned is that Cowboys fans will complain about things, even if every other team in the NFL does the same thing.

My beef with 2009 was not trading down for 2010 picks. That draft was talent poor. Of course, maybe that's why it could've been tough to try and get 2010 picks.....

 

[SWG9]

So we got 24 seasons of worth out of that Draft and all 6 players are still in the NFL playing. We opted to move on from 4 of them for cap reasons. That is a fact of life in the NFL for all 32 teams, but only in Dallas is it an indictment.

What four did we dump for cap reasons??

From what I see, Jenkins signed a one year deal for 1.5 million dollars, Jones signed a one year deal for 800k or so, and Marty B signed a one year deal with the Giants for 2.5 million before getting a 4 year 20 million dollar deal with 9 million guaranteed from the Bears.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the main point you're trying to make, but I can't agree that they were dumped due to the cap.

 

[wileedog]

Not really surprised. I'm not willing to put in the countless hours it would take to research it, but I imagine that most teams have plenty of similar drafts.

Of course they do. And when they have 3 out of 5 years of those kinds of drafts they replace their front office with someone who knows what they are doing. Or they continue to suck.