DMN: Sherrington: Gregory's return gives Cowboys a duo they haven't had since Ware-Spencer

[big dog cowboy]

Ware is too nice, he'd been greater if he had some nastiness like Hardy.

Was just about to post this same thing. For me personally, I prefer a little nasty over nice but love really nasty over a little nasty.

 

[ShiningStar]

I don't want to go too far down the road, since Spencer played strong side and had different responsibilities, but he was a very good player for several years there for us. Both with containment and in getting pressure. He didn't have the sack numbers, but he got his share of well-deserved respect from players and coaches. And from our front office. It drives me bats that so many fans won't see it because they won't look beyond the sack stat line. We're already seeing Demarcus Lawrence suffer the same fate, despite playing well the last two games.

Regardless, Hardy/Gregory ought to be more fun to watch, because they'll play alongside each other, and because we'll move them around pretty liberally, I think. Really like the flexibility this current group gives us.

i agree to a point with you. as i said in another place, im not a stat guy. Thats not what didnt really impress me about Spencer. Spencer was ok. He played to the people around him. You culdnt expect Spencer to do a game or two. He was no leader on the defense. He did his job that was it. Total experience, average. Up and down he could do some things, but now that hes gone, we dont even feel his presence or the mere fact he left one. Like a few other players.

Some people want to get excited because he was a Cowboy, or they saw one shining aspect , something to say "thats a good player." but theres not enough of a overall player at his position to say "wow that was a player, stats or not" Solid fine, make the case. Gone, forgotten, what did we lose that hasnt been replaced?

 

[Idgit]

i agree to a point with you. as i said in another place, im not a stat guy. Thats not what didnt really impress me about Spencer. Spencer was ok. He played to the people around him. You culdnt expect Spencer to do a game or two. He was no leader on the defense. He did his job that was it. Total experience, average. Up and down he could do some things, but now that hes gone, we dont even feel his presence or the mere fact he left one. Like a few other players.

Some people want to get excited because he was a Cowboy, or they saw one shining aspect , something to say "thats a good player." but theres not enough of a overall player at his position to say "wow that was a player, stats or not" Solid fine, make the case. Gone, forgotten, what did we lose that hasnt been replaced?

There's not enough difference between your 'solid' and my 'good' for me to want to debate it, really. He was a very good player against the run. He could cover well for his position in the passing game when he had to. As a pass rusher, he was a tease who got more pressure than sacks. A good enough player to earn the fanchise tags because you didn't want to lose him, but not quite good enough to justify a big commitment on a long-term contract. He's not in any discussion re: being a player in Ware's class.

But at the end of the day, you ought to take that out of a draft pick and be very satisfied. As I said earlier, so far, Demarcus Lawrence is on a similar trajectory, and that's ok. Not because he's a Cowboy, but because that's how it works a lot of the time in the NFL.

 

[Manster68]

We never had that duo clicking on all cylinders.

Apparently, you are way too young to remember the Manster and the Martinizer. Throw in Too Tall and you have a trio of people that went after quarterbacks.

Just look at Ron Jaworski today. He still quivers when he thinks of Harvey Martin and Randy White.

 

[RoboQB]

Apparently, you are way too young to remember the Manster and the Martinizer. Throw in Too Tall and you have a trio of people that went after quarterbacks.

Just look at Ron Jaworski today. He still quivers when he thinks of Harvey Martin and Randy White.

I believe Martin preferred to introduce himself as "the beautiful Harvey Martin".

 

[darthseinfeld]

There's not enough difference between your 'solid' and my 'good' for me to want to debate it, really. He was a very good player against the run. He could cover well for his position in the passing game when he had to. As a pass rusher, he was a tease who got more pressure than sacks. A good enough player to earn the fanchise tags because you didn't want to lose him, but not quite good enough to justify a big commitment on a long-term contract. He's not in any discussion re: being a player in Ware's class.

But at the end of the day, you ought to take that out of a draft pick and be very satisfied. As I said earlier, so far, Demarcus Lawrence is on a similar trajectory, and that's ok. Not because he's a Cowboy, but because that's how it works a lot of the time in the NFL.

As a rusher Spencer was a groove guy. The 3-4 didn't suit him as a pass rusher because it didnt allow him to rush enough and get into a groove. When Ware got hurt and he was the main rusher and rushed every play, Almost Anthony became a good sack artist in 2009 and 2012. He is a guy who is gonna take to some rushes to really get going.

I think he was best suited to be a 4-3 RDE. Had he played there I think he would have been a 10-12 sack a game guy in the NFL. The coverage and run defense is nice and all, but I think he was somewhat wasted in a 3-4 and definitely wasted on the strong side

All in all he was a solid player

 

[burmafrd]

As a rusher Spencer was a groove guy. The 3-4 didn't suit him as a pass rusher because it didnt allow him to rush enough and get into a groove. When Ware got hurt and he was the main rusher and rushed every play, Almost Anthony became a good sack artist in 2009 and 2012. He is a guy who is gonna take to some rushes to really get going.

I think he was best suited to be a 4-3 RDE. Had he played there I think he would have been a 10-12 sack a game guy in the NFL. The coverage and run defense is nice and all, but I think he was somewhat wasted in a 3-4 and definitely wasted on the strong side

All in all he was a solid player

there is no way he would have been as good as Ellis as a 4-3 DE. He had only two short periods in his entire career when he showed that so to claim he would have been a 10-12 sack guy with any consistancy is laughable

 

[darthseinfeld]

there is no way he would have been as good as Ellis as a 4-3 DE. He had only two short periods in his entire career when he showed that so to claim he would have been a 10-12 sack guy with any consistancy is laughable

He was a 6 sack a year guy with half as many rushes as a 4-3 DE so I dont see how its laughable

 

[Jarv]

Ware is too nice, he'd been greater if he had some nastiness like Hardy.

Maybe he is getting grumpier in his old age, but it sure looks like he is delivering more big hits in Denver than he ever did here. Have you seen any of his highlights there this year?

 

[jazzcat22]

this... Harvey Martin and Too Tall Jones.

Yep...also was thinking, Haley & Tolbert.

 

[ufcrules1]

Only thing Spencer was good at is stealing money from Jerry. When I think of Spencer, it reminds me of a time that Jerry over paid for vets when our team was a joke. He overpaid for vets when he shouldn't have and then didn't keep a vet (Murray) when he should have. We have sucked the past 20 years for a reason. That reason is Jerry.

 

[Idgit]

As a rusher Spencer was a groove guy. The 3-4 didn't suit him as a pass rusher because it didnt allow him to rush enough and get into a groove. When Ware got hurt and he was the main rusher and rushed every play, Almost Anthony became a good sack artist in 2009 and 2012. He is a guy who is gonna take to some rushes to really get going.

I think he was best suited to be a 4-3 RDE. Had he played there I think he would have been a 10-12 sack a game guy in the NFL. The coverage and run defense is nice and all, but I think he was somewhat wasted in a 3-4 and definitely wasted on the strong side

All in all he was a solid player

I'd agree with all of this, too.

 

[xwalker]

As a rusher Spencer was a groove guy. The 3-4 didn't suit him as a pass rusher because it didnt allow him to rush enough and get into a groove. When Ware got hurt and he was the main rusher and rushed every play, Almost Anthony became a good sack artist in 2009 and 2012. He is a guy who is gonna take to some rushes to really get going.

I think he was best suited to be a 4-3 RDE. Had he played there I think he would have been a 10-12 sack a game guy in the NFL. The coverage and run defense is nice and all, but I think he was somewhat wasted in a 3-4 and definitely wasted on the strong side

All in all he was a solid player

Actually Spencer had way more value to a 3-4 team, IMO. It's not that difficult to find a guy that could match his ability as DE in a 4 man line; however, it is very difficult to find a player that can fill that role of Strong Side OLB in the Rob Ryan and Wade Phillips defenses. Finding what I call a 3 tool player is very difficult. He was good in coverage, in run defense and as a pass rusher. Normally 3-4 teams end up with a guy that is good in 2 of those 3 skills.

As the WOLB Ware had far less coverage responsibilities (about 1/3 as much as Spencer) and run defense is not as difficult on the Weak Side because that player is generally lined up far outside of the on run downs; whereas, the SOLB often was head up on the OT and often got doubled by the OT and TE.

 

[xwalker]

Only thing Spencer was good at is stealing money from Jerry. When I think of Spencer, it reminds me of a time that Jerry over paid for vets when our team was a joke. He overpaid for vets when he shouldn't have and then didn't keep a vet (Murray) when he should have. We have sucked the past 20 years for a reason. That reason is Jerry.

Maybe because of his injuries; however, when Spencer played in Wade and RR's defenses, he was much more valuable than most people realize. You have to look at the specifics of those defenses and what they needed from the Strong Side OLB. They needed what I call a 3 tool player (coverage, run defense and pass rush). Spencer was a true 3 tool players both physically and mentally. They tried guys like Victor Butler at the position but he just couldn't handle the mental demands of knowing when to cover vs rush and when/how to avoid getting trapped in the run game.

I'm not a huge fans of Wade or RR's defenses because of the fact that it is really difficult to find that 3 tool player at SOLB.

Parcells tried to sell Jerry on the idea that it was easier to find 3-4 OLBs than 4-3 DEs but that turned out not to be true. It was a little easier in Parcells 3-4 than in the Wade/RR defenses but it was still more difficult find players with the right mental makeup at OLB than finding a 4-3 DE in Marinelli's scheme.

 

[darthseinfeld]

Actually Spencer's had way more value to a 3-4 team, IMO. It's not that difficult to find a guy that could match his ability as DE in a 4 man line; however, it is very difficult to find a player that can fill that role of Strong Side OLB in the Rob Ryan and Wade Phillips defenses. Finding what I call a 3 tool player is very difficult. He was good in coverage, in run defense and as a pass rusher. Normally 3-4 teams end up with a guy that is good in 2 of those 3 skills.

As the WOLB Ware had far less coverage responsibilities (about 1/3 as much as Spencer) and run defense is not as difficult on the Weak Side because that player is generally lined up far outside of the on run downs; whereas, the SOLB often was head up on the OT and often got doubled by the OT and TE.

If your talking total skill set, then I agree. He had the right mix of skills to be a an effective LOLB. He was surprisingly effective in coverage and had a good feel for zone coverage

If your talking as a pure rusher. I still say RDE. He could have been effective as a ROLB rusher, but I dont think he had the first step to be dominate as a stand up weak side rusher. That was his biggest weakness as a rusher. Now it wasnt terrible. It was average. As a RDE, you still want an elite first step, but its not as big as a ROLB in a 3-4

 

[darthseinfeld]

Maybe because of his injuries; however, when Spencer played in Wade and RR's defenses, he was much more valuable than most people realize. You have to look at the specifics of those defenses and what they needed from the Strong Side OLB. They needed what I call a 3 tool player (coverage, run defense and pass rush). Spencer was a true 3 tool players both physically and mentally. They tried guys like Victor Butler at the position but he just couldn't handle the mental demands of knowing when to cover vs rush and when/how to avoid getting trapped in the run game.

I'm not a huge fans of Wade or RR's defenses because of the fact that it is really difficult to find that 3 tool player at SOLB.

Parcells tried to sell Jerry on the idea that it was easier to find 3-4 OLBs than 4-3 DEs but that turned out not to be true. It was a little easier in Parcells 3-4 than in the Wade/RR defenses but it was still more difficult find players with the right mental makeup at OLB than finding a 4-3 DE in Marinelli's scheme.

In Parcells defense it was easier to find 3-4 OLB's when he got the Dallas job. There were only a couple 3-4 teams and guys like Joey Porter were mid rounders. Unfortunately almost half the league had that same idea and from 2005 to 2008 a good portion of the NFL went 3-4 making elite 3-4 OLBs top 15 picks and good ones top 25 picks

 

[jobberone]

Spencer was a good to very good SDE in our system. He performed very well in the responsibilities given him.

The other consideration is he played on teams that weren't great. Put him in a overall better DL and turn him lose more and his stats would go up. Solid player.

 

[DandyDon52]

all I know is hardy looked good in 1st half of NE game, and if you play him and lawrence it helps lawrence be better.
Maybe even put all 3 in on some plays ?
they need more than 1 of them in the game at same time to get full effect.

I was thinking giants would win this game sunday, but now I am thinking the DL if all 3 of these guys play could give Eli
many problems and maybe 5 or more sacks.
If they can do that all game not just 1 half, then cowboys should win this, providing the offense can get going.

 

[dallasdave]

Just like Batman and Robin

 

[ShiningStar]

Spencer was a good to very good SDE in our system. He performed very well in the responsibilities given him.

The other consideration is he played on teams that weren't great. Put him in a overall better DL and turn him lose more and his stats would go up. Solid player.

Thats very true and hard to argue, some of the teams werent very good.