DPOY: Ware or Harrison?

[Plumfool]

Its Ware because his peers say so. Ask the Michael Strahan

 

[SteelManiac55]

It hasnt played out that way, not even close.

Dallas has defeated three teams currently with winning records. Philly, Tampa, and Washington (with whom they split). They have lost to St. Louis (2-10), Arizona (7-5), Washington (7-5), and the Giants (11-1).

Pittsburgh has defeated three teams currently with winning record. Baltimore, Washington, and New England. The Steelers have lost to the Eagles (6-5-1), the Giants (11-1), and the Colts (8-4).

It's tough to really say the Steelers have had a weaker schedule.

 

[Shinywalrus]

Please list all of Ware's "garbage time" sacks.

Sure thing!

Garbage Time Sack #1: Game vs. Cleveland - With 11 minutes remaining, Ware sacks Anderson on 3rd and 12 with the Cowboys up by 21 points. The play doesn't change much, as Dawson successfully kicks the 34 yarder, which would have been a 28 yarder without the sack.

Garbage Time Sack #2: Game vs. Green Bay - With the game out of reach (it was a two possession game with 36 seconds remaining), Ware got a coverage sack (Prevent Defense) on Rodgers.

Garbage Time Sack #3: Game vs. Cincinnati - Ware sacks Palmer on 2nd and 10 with the Cowboys up by two possessions with 1:44 remaining in the game...and Palmer completes a 25 yard 3rd down conversion on the next play.

Garbage Time Sack #4: Game vs. St. Louis - Ware sacks Bulger for a yard on a 1st and 10 with the Cowboys getting blown out.

Garbage Time Sack #5: Game vs. NYG - Ware sacks Eli and forces a fumble - clearly showed skill, but the Cowboys were down 21 with little time left, and after the Giants had already hung 28 on a defense that was playing lousy.

Now clearly, Ware has stepped it up in the last couple games, including an important sack against San Francisco that led to the blocked punt and a dominating performance versus Seattle. If these are the kinds of plays he can make against the competition Dallas has for the remainder of the season, then he's DPOY for sure.

But the question of whether he's had a better campaign than Harrison seems less convincing. Harrison has had a greater impact on games because of his play. Doesn't mean he matches up to Ware physically, mentally or talent-wise, but that's not what we're talking about here. Ware is probably (Haynesworth and Asomugha give him a run for his money) the most individually dominant defensive player in the league, but that doesn't mean he is having the best campaign.

And frankly, I'd give the award to Asomugha over Harrison OR Ware. But there are still four games left.

 

[AdamJT13]

Pittsburgh's opponents have passed the ball more (28 times more -- almost a full game's worth), but Ware has more sacks and more quarterback hits. Ware has at least one quarterback hit in every game and at least one sack in 11 games. Harrison has four games without a sack, including three in which he didn't even have a quarterback hit.

They have played against five common opponents -- Cleveland, Cincinnati, the Giants, Washington and Philadelphia -- for a total of six games (Ware has faced Washington twice, Harrison has faced Cincinnati twice.)

In those six games, Dallas' opponents attempted 193 passes, and Ware had six sacks and 10 total quarterback hits. Pittsburgh's opponents threw 221 passes, and Harrison had 3.5 sacks and eight total quarterback hits.

Ware clearly is a better pass-rusher than Harrison, and he has twice as many run stuffs behind the line has Harrison.

 

[CATCH17]

It's debatable that Harrison may be having the better year.

I don't think its at all debatable who the better player is and i'd be shocked if 1 NFL GM took Harrison over Ware.

 

[AdamJT13]

Sure thing!

Garbage Time Sack #1: Game vs. Cleveland - With 11 minutes remaining, Ware sacks Anderson on 3rd and 12 with the Cowboys up by 21 points. The play doesn't change much, as Dawson successfully kicks the 34 yarder, which would have been a 28 yarder without the sack.

Garbage Time Sack #2: Game vs. Green Bay - With the game out of reach (it was a two possession game with 36 seconds remaining), Ware got a coverage sack (Prevent Defense) on Rodgers.

Garbage Time Sack #3: Game vs. Cincinnati - Ware sacks Palmer on 2nd and 10 with the Cowboys up by two possessions with 1:44 remaining in the game...and Palmer completes a 25 yard 3rd down conversion on the next play.

Garbage Time Sack #4: Game vs. St. Louis - Ware sacks Bulger for a yard on a 1st and 10 with the Cowboys getting blown out.

Garbage Time Sack #5: Game vs. NYG - Ware sacks Eli and forces a fumble - clearly showed skill, but the Cowboys were down 21 with little time left, and after the Giants had already hung 28 on a defense that was playing lousy.

I'd disagree with any sack before the fourth quarter being called a "garbage-time" sack -- especially one that forces a turnover in the middle of the third quarter of a big game. That play against the Giants was a big play that gave us some hope of a comeback (other than the fact that Brooks Bollinger was our QB). It certainly wasn't in "garbage time."

I'd also disagree with the Green Bay and Cincinnati sacks being called "garbage-time" sacks. Teams do recover onside kicks, you know. If Romo hadn't been hurt in overtime and we had driven for a game-winning field goal, I'd bet Arizona would have loved one of those "garbage-time sacks" when we were down 10 with just a few minutes remaining. I'm sure the Texans would have loved a "garbage-time" sack against Peyton Manning in Week 5, too.

 

[Shinywalrus]

I'd disagree with any sack before the fourth quarter being called a "garbage-time" sack -- especially one that forces a turnover in the middle of the third quarter of a big game. That play against the Giants was a big play that gave us some hope of a comeback (other than the fact that Brooks Bollinger was our QB). It certainly wasn't in "garbage time."

I'd also disagree with the Green Bay and Cincinnati sacks being called "garbage-time" sacks. Teams do recover onside kicks, you know. If Romo hadn't been hurt in overtime and we had driven for a game-winning field goal, I'd bet Arizona would have loved one of those "garbage-time sacks" when we were down 10 with just a few minutes remaining. I'm sure the Texans would have loved a "garbage-time" sack against Peyton Manning in Week 5, too.

I think the point is not that they're "garbage sacks" or that they're meaningless, but rather that not all pressure is created equal. I think there's a pretty general consensus, at least in the early-to-mid part of the season, that Ware was conspicuously absent, relative to his usual dominance, in the 1st and 2nd quarters. Harrison's penchant for making game-changing fumbles and contributing to the kind of pressure that has caused severely errant throws is noticeable even with his very gaudy numbers.

Ratliff's performance, and the reason it was so striking to so many people, was not only a function of his rise from obscurity, but the fact that so many of the plays he DID make came at critical moments. Over a short season with a limited number of games, the natural variations of performance and scheme and playcalling can mean that talent doesn't necessarily always equal the highest level of productivity - Ware was part of that crowd.

Conspicuously, once Wade took over defensive playcalling, Ware's talent has resulted in much more productivity.

There are a lot of variables at play, but I don't see how you can argue that Harrison hasn't had a better YEAR, just like I don't see how you can argue that Ware isn't a better PLAYER.

 

[theogt]

They have played against five common opponents -- Cleveland, Cincinnati, the Giants, Washington and Philadelphia -- for a total of six games (Ware has faced Washington twice, Harrison has faced Cincinnati twice.)

In those six games, Dallas' opponents attempted 193 passes, and Ware had six sacks and 10 total quarterback hits. Pittsburgh's opponents threw 221 passes, and Harrison had 3.5 sacks and eight total quarterback hits.

Add to this that Cincinnati is 2nd in the league in sacks given up, and that's about as conclusive evidence as you're gonna get. By my count, that's double the production.

Into "passes per" stats among common opponents:

Harrison
Sacks - 63.1
Hits - 27.6

Ware
Sacks - 32.2
Hits - 19.3

 

[28 Joker]

Pittsburgh's opponents have passed the ball more (28 times more -- almost a full game's worth), but Ware has more sacks and more quarterback hits. Ware has at least one quarterback hit in every game and at least one sack in 11 games. Harrison has four games without a sack, including three in which he didn't even have a quarterback hit.

They have played against five common opponents -- Cleveland, Cincinnati, the Giants, Washington and Philadelphia -- for a total of six games (Ware has faced Washington twice, Harrison has faced Cincinnati twice.)

In those six games, Dallas' opponents attempted 193 passes, and Ware had six sacks and 10 total quarterback hits. Pittsburgh's opponents threw 221 passes, and Harrison had 3.5 sacks and eight total quarterback hits.

Ware clearly is a better pass-rusher than Harrison, and he has twice as many run stuffs behind the line has Harrison.

Yes. I love it. That is good stuff, right there.

 

[Jake0]

Well these guys will be on the same field with each other next Sunday, we'll see who has more of an impact then.

 

[Hoofbite]

Pittsburgh's opponents have passed the ball more (28 times more -- almost a full game's worth), but Ware has more sacks and more quarterback hits. Ware has at least one quarterback hit in every game and at least one sack in 11 games. Harrison has four games without a sack, including three in which he didn't even have a quarterback hit.

They have played against five common opponents -- Cleveland, Cincinnati, the Giants, Washington and Philadelphia -- for a total of six games (Ware has faced Washington twice, Harrison has faced Cincinnati twice.)

In those six games, Dallas' opponents attempted 193 passes, and Ware had six sacks and 10 total quarterback hits. Pittsburgh's opponents threw 221 passes, and Harrison had 3.5 sacks and eight total quarterback hits.

Ware clearly is a better pass-rusher than Harrison, and he has twice as many run stuffs behind the line has Harrison.

It was only a matter of time before Adam came in here and set things straight.

Good stuff.

 

[tyke1doe]

Asking a Cowboys site who fans prefer - Ware or Harrison?

That's like asking a straight up heterosexual male who he prefers - Pamela Anderson or Richard Simmons.

 

[ThreeSportStar80]

Hmmm that's a toss up honestly... Harrison has been forcing more fumbles so you could go with him.

 

[dallasfaniac]

This 'garbage time sack' crud can be thrown out right now. If garbage time sacks are so easy to come by, how does Harrison go 4 games without a sack at all. Was there no garbage time in those games? Do all of his sacks come in the first 3 quarters and none in the 4th? Hogwash! You can't subtract from one guy and not the other.

 

[TEK2000]

I threw this together.

The QB Hit and Tackle for Loss stats are taken straight from the "Game Books" on NFL.com for every game each player has played.

Don't ask me why there is a huge discrepancy on "Stuffs" (from ESPN.com) and "Tackles for Loss" (from the GameBooks on NFL.com)


http://img234.*************/img234/1502/warevsharrison2008statsdw3.jpg

 

[theogt]

Are you counting sacks in the TFL stat?

Ware only had one TFL against Seattle.

 

[TEK2000]

Are you counting sacks in the TFL stat?

Like I said... took it straight out of the Game Book from each game on NFL.com

http://www.nfl.com/liveupdate/gamecenter/29705/DAL_Gamebook.pdf​

Take a look at Page 5 of that PDF file. That's the Gamebook from the Dallas vs Seattle game.

That's bound to be what they are doing.​

 

[theogt]

Like I said... took it straight out of the Game Book from each game on NFL.com

http://www.nfl.com/liveupdate/gamecenter/29705/DAL_Gamebook.pdf​

Take a look at Page 5 of that PDF file. That's the Gamebook from the Dallas vs Seattle game.

That's bound to be what they are doing.​

Must be a typo. Or they accidentally counted sacks as TFL.

 

[TEK2000]

Must be a typo. Or they accidentally counted sacks as TFL.

I suppose technically... a Tackle for Loss is a Sack since it is a loss of yardage.

Seems ESPN.com separates them out as "Stuffs" that are Tackles for Loss on running plays.

 

[AdamJT13]

Unofficial stats aren't always recorded the same way in the Gamebooks. In some games, the TFL include sacks, and in some games, they don't. Also, "quarterback hits" include some sacks, but not all sacks.