Ellis and Parcells in shouting match?

[kartr]

Well, I think the problem is that we're trying to implicate Ellis' draft selection is something that he should have control over. Listen, it's not his fault that we elected to draft him that high. When he was selected, many felt as if that was a reach for him. We had an opportunity to take Moss. I've seen it time and again, on this board, advocating Ellis over Moss because of the fact that Ellis was a team leader and a solid guy, top to bottom. Now, were trying to say, and I'm not say you specifically, but collectively, that he hasn't lived up to expectations? Well, I don't agree but no matter. He is what he is. What's more, he is what his draft profile suggested he would be. If there is issue over his draft status, that fault lies at the feet of the Club.

I suspect that Jerry will be involved with this before it's all said and done. I just have that feeling.

I agree whole-heartedly, no player can control where he is drafted or how he is used and developed. That's why I flinch at the term 'draft bust'. I strongly suspect that there would be much fewer 'draft busts', if more NFL coaches and GMs' were really doing their jobs. After all, Heath Schuler,Ryan Leaf and the rest of the busts didn't draft themselves and weren't totally in charge of their development as players.

 

[jman]

I hope I heard it correctly because my reception was going bad on me (must have been driving though a low spot), but Newy Scruggs was saying about 15 minutes ago that Ellis went into Parcells' office to basically do a Hutch-like question about his role as a 3-4 player, and the two really got into it... Scruggs said Parcells tried to yell and intimidate Greg, but Greg didn't back down and started yelling back.

If anyone heard that and I am misreporting, please correct me -- I actually hope I'm wrong. But I'm pretty sure I'm not because when I had better reception they were still talking about Ellis fitting in and how he'd interact with Parcells when camp starts.

We'd heard Ellis wasn't happy, but I didn't know it was that bad. I hope Nors isn't right and Ellis is a potential goner.

When did this supposedly happen? Today, yesterday, last month? There's were the relevance is.

 

[Outlaw Heroes]

This is precisely why practically none of the players we have drafted over the last 4-6 years are Cowboys any longer. If he did not have the talent to be a player worthy of his selection, and was simply a choice for "character" then it is no wonder why we have been so bad for so long.

Actually, the reason guys like Bryant, Ross, Carter and Blade are no longer Cowboys is quite the opposite: their lack of character is what did them in.

 

[kartr]

here we go.......We all complained the Ellis never had any support....now he gets in a shouting match with Parcells and Ellis is a bum who wouldn't start on a good defence......

I'm not a big fan of Ellis....but the years of reading post on how Ellis needs better players around him instead of the likes of Wiley and Ek and there were even posts on that he was better the Kearse.

Now he is a bum because he questioned Big old Bill..........oh my....

Both Ellis and Ekuban were highly touted coming out of college. Again, they can't control where they're drafted, how they're used or who their supporting cast is. Remember this too,Glover came here averaging 10 sacks a year, but hasn't come close to that, was it his fault we didn't draft John Henderson or Kevin Williams to pair him with. Maybe Ekuban,Ellis and Glover would all have been more productive had we completed the process of rebuilding our defensive line.

 

[kartr]

You maybe be right but exactly what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

It would be stupid for Ellis to just shut the hell up. It would be stupid for Parcells to just miss lead Ellis on this. It would be stupid for the club to not try and work out a deal where all parties get good value.

Mostly, it would be stupid four us, as fans, to blindly believe that all of this is for the best, regardless. Players are not going to sit back and be content to have there roles deminished, especially when there still physically capable of performing at a high level. This is just not realistic and it's foolish for us to expect that. If players see the writting on the wall, there going to try to make moves to facilitate there futures. That's not a bad thing. It's human nature. Any one of us would do the same in like circumstnaces.

If the decision is 34, so be it but I tell you know, with can play either. If we go 34, it will be at the expense of players like Ellis and Glover. I'm fine with that but it had better work. If it does not, there will be hell to pay for it. That's not me, that's reality.

Great points all.

 

[SultanOfSix]

First, Henry getting "burned" in minicamp. Now a reporter (who obviously has bugs inside Parcell's office ascertaining from his vivid description of what went on - you can tell how much I believe this story) is reporting that one of the team's class acts can't deal with Parcells anymore. The sky is falling! Cancel the season NOW!!

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Well I never make things up to fit an argument, he did play it and did make the pro bowl. Did he deserve to go to the Pro Bowl well that is all up for discussion but the facts are he did make the Pro Bowl team while playing the 34 in NO. He is familiar with the D and just as with Ellis I expect him to go out and play his best. Will their best be good enough? That is why we play the games, which will tell us all

Not trying to imply you did. I'm saying that I watched Glover while in NO and he, IMO, was not spectacular in the 34 sets. Also, NO didn't play the 34, at that time, as a base so who really knows?

I think it will be interesting to watch this play out but I am not confident that Glover will be anything more then average in a 34. JMO of course.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

8-10 sacks???

7.5 in 02, 8 in 03, 9 in 04. Is there any reason to think he won't continue to post like or superior numbers over the next few years? I would expect that it's even resonable to assume this guy will post better numbers if he is lucky enough to go to a 43 team with talent along the front 7.

 

[Alexander]

Actually, the reason guys like Bryant, Ross, Carter and Blade are no longer Cowboys is quite the opposite: their lack of character is what did them in.

True, but Ellis' "character" should not override his utility. You cannot swing too far either way.

Michael Irvin was of questionable off the field character, yet his on the field talent outweighed that and Coach Johnson measured that. The same with Charles Haley. Parcells did it for years with Lawrence Taylor.

Is that hypocritical? Yes. But that is the price you pay to field a winning team.

All of the above players were talented, and they were scaled in relation to the tradeoff of talent and character. And in these cases, they were found wanting.

If Ellis were as talented as we all seem to think he is, then this will be a minor conflict and Parcells will work with him because he does bring that to the table.

The assumption here is that Coach Parcells is in the business of acting in a manner which is not best for the team.

That is simply insane.

 

[Alexander]

The sky is falling! Cancel the season NOW!!

And look!

We have a maniacal egomaniac head coach running off all of our talent that has done so well for us over the years!

~blood-curdling scream~

 

[kartr]

Why isn't Bill?......Bill is putting square pegs in round holes...with players like Glover and Ellis.

If Bill gave his all....he would of trade both of them.

Putting square pegs in round holes is my main criticism of Bill. That's what I think is the problem he had in New England. He's a great coach, but he needs help to do his job right, but if he thinks he knows it all and doesn't respect the opinions of his players and assistants, like Mike Sherman, we could very well lose some good people. For instance, the problem with our defense last year wasn't that we didn't run the 3-4, the problem is that we picked the wrong free agent DE and didn't draft a corner high to pair with Newman, and didn't get a high profile free agent corner. Those weren't player problems, they were management problems. Yes, we did get Julius Jones, which was good, but we missed on Jacob Rogers,Bruce Thornton and Sean Ryan. And that's the other part of my problem with Bill, not making consistently good personnel decisions, but being rather hit and miss. I don't claim to know everything, but I can see the inconsistencies quite clearly.

 

[Waffle]

Is it true Parcells pulled a knive on him? And then Ellis gave him a superplex off the desk.

I bet it is because if I post it on a forum like this it must be true...

.......:laugh2:

Actually, I heard Ellis started the whole thing by rigging a large anvil to fall out of the ceiling and onto Parcells' head.

Parcells, who now looks like a accordian, retailated by putting several sticks of TNT inside Ellis' mouth and lighting the fuse.

 

[tyke1doe]

Putting square pegs in round holes is my main criticism of Bill. That's what I think is the problem he had in New England. He's a great coach, but he needs help to do his job right, but if he thinks he knows it all and doesn't respect the opinions of his players and assistants, like Mike Sherman, we could very well lose some good people. For instance, the problem with our defense last year wasn't that we didn't run the 3-4, the problem is that we picked the wrong free agent DE and didn't draft a corner high to pair with Newman, and didn't get a high profile free agent corner. Those weren't player problems, they were management problems. Yes, we did get Julius Jones, which was good, but we missed on Jacob Rogers,Bruce Thornton and Sean Ryan. And that's the other part of my problem with Bill, not making consistently good personnel decisions, but being rather hit and miss. I don't claim to know everything, but I can see the inconsistencies quite clearly.

How can you say we missed on Jacob Rogers and Bruce Thornton when they were out most - if not all - the season with injuries?

Second, Parcells is trying to move to a scheme he's had success with. I see no problem with that. We've had the 4-3 since we drafted Ellis. He hasn't done much in the 4-3 so why should his production be any different even if we stay with a 4-3? And he's not getting any younger.

All you need to know about this defense is that 40-minute McScramble by McNabb last year on national television. If you ask me, nobody on the defensive line should complain about any changes. That was just down right embarrassing.

 

[InmanRoshi]

I love this "Parcells is so stubborn !!! He just forces things !!" talk.

Parcells is in Year 3, and he's just now getting around to installing the defense he prefers. He let Jerry keep Lacewell. He kept the defensive coaching staff. He kept the 4-3.

After after two years of trying to go with the flow, a 6-10 season and a terrible defensive outing he's going to ... gasp ... make changes !!! He's going to go back to doing what's made him a Hall of Fame coach in the first place?

What an a-hole !!!!

Rookie head coaches who haven't even put on the headset for their first shape the team to run the philosophy they know and prefer. Romeo Crennel gets to move the Browns to a 3-4 and completely guts his defensive front. Nick Saban moves to the Dolphins, and says they are going to play some 3-4. Nick Saban tells a Hall of Famer like Jason Taylor that his role is going to change, and if he doesn't like it ... tough. Taylor is a Hall of Famer, but he isn't bigger than the team.

Yet, evidently, our Hall of Fame coach who has won Superbowls is an inflexible, stubborn a-hole for having the audacity to want to have the same input on his team that Mike freakin Nolan gets with his organization.

Hilarious.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

.......:laugh2:

Actually, I heard Ellis started the whole thing by rigging a large anvil to fall out of the ceiling and onto Parcells' head.

Parcells, who now looks like a accordian, retailated by putting several sticks of TNT inside Ellis' mouth and lighting the fuse.

ROFLMAO!

Oh Waffle my good buddy! I needed that with all this lunacy running rampant.

 

[InmanRoshi]

All you need to know about this defense is that 40-minute McScramble by McNabb last year on national television. If you ask me, nobody on the defensive line should complain about any changes. That was just down right embarrassing.

That's the paragraph of the entire thread. Nothing else really needs to be said.

 

[tyke1doe]

I love this "Parcells is so stubborn !!! He just forces things !!" talk.

Parcells is in Year 3, and he's just now getting around to installing the defense he prefers. He let Jerry keep Lacewell. He kept the defensive coaching staff. He kept the 4-3.

After after two years of trying to go with the flow, a 6-10 season and a terrible defensive outing he's going to ... gasp ... make changes !!! He's going to go back to doing what's made him a Hall of Fame coach in the first place?

What an a-hole !!!!

Rookie head coaches who haven't even put on the headset for their first game get to make the shape the team to run the philosophy they know and prefer. Romeo Crennel gets to move the Browns to a 3-4 and completely guts his defensive front.

Yet, evidently, our Hall of Fame coach who has won Superbowls is an inflexible, stubborn a-hole for having the audacity to want to have the same input on his team that Mike Nolan gets with his organization.

Hilarious.

Great points, IR.

Parcells showed his open-mindedness by allowing the Cowboys to maintain the same personnel and the same system when he came on board. Heck, he even allowed Quincy Carter to QB the team when most Cowboys fans were shouting for Hutchinson.

The 10-6 season gave the Cowboys and those players a bit of a reprieve or postponed the rebuilding process, even though Parcells hinted that this team wasn't as talented as its record.

Now after a 6-10 record, posters are complaining because Ellis doesn't like his role and he let Parcells know about it?

If Ellis had notched 16 sacks and had planted McNabb on that 40 minute scramble that may win an ESPY award, then he'd have grounds to gripe. But he performed average on a bad defensive team.

As the old Spiritual goes ... It's been a long, a long time comin' but a change is gonna come.

 

[Zaxor]

Wow... You have to be kidding on several fronts. AB's actions are understandable because you think he had more talent? Ellis has produced more for this franchise than AB ever thought about.

And to compare him to Freddie Mitchell, a buffoon who repeatedly embarrassed his team... That's amazing you could think that.

Maybe Inman is right and Greg isn't worth "showcasing". I agree, he's not some superstar game changer all by himself. But to me, that's not even the issue. The question to me is, why can't you just have a mature man-to-man talk with one of your best professionals and team leaders before it turns into this? This reminds me of when Ekuban found out he wasn't active that day when his jersey wasn't in his locker. Are you telling me you can't somehow communicate to a player that he isn't active? And the fact that Ekuban didn't live up to expectations as a player is irrelevant IMO.

pheww I thought for awhile no one was gonna say this...

Look I will never understand how ole duane better know as billy goatheaded Purrcells can ask his players for respect and for them to respect the game and themselves but he himself is so utterly incapable of giving out any what so ever till they kneel before his majesty and kiss his royal duff

 

[Outlaw Heroes]

The assumption here is that Coach Parcells is in the business of acting in a manner which is not best for the team.

That is simply insane.

The rest of your post, I agree with. I'm excerpting this because you seem to operate under a competing assumption: namely, that whatever Parcells does is fine because, well, Parcells did it.

Seems to me there's sufficient evidence to suggest that Parcells has a big enough ego to prevent his always acting in the best interests of the team. If this story is true, it may ultimately prove to be further evidence of that. However galling it may be for Parcells to have his authority "questioned" by an otherwise stand-up member of the squad, there are more appropriate ways to handle things than to immediately resort to intimidation tactics. As someone else suggested, I can't see Landry doing something like that. Which is fine -- Parcells is, after all, human. But it's precisely his human tendencies that allow for the possibility of questioning him when he makes what ostensibly is a mistake (again, assuming the story is true). Being a fan should not require one to forego use of one's critical faculty.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

And if this nonsense did happen I at least give Ellis credit for not running to the media to voice his compalaints.

He went straight into Purcells office... kicked him right in the sack and said, "OK... do you understand that layman?"