ESPN: Four Cowboys on decade's 25 most overrated players

[Muhast]

Agreed. Newman is a very good CB, but he doesn't make enough "Big Plays" to be considered Elite. Teams don't fear him.

You could very easily argue he doesn't make "big plays" bc teams DO fear him..

The reason corners like Samuel get so many Int's is b/c teams throw at them constantly.

D-Hall made tons of "big plays" but for each "big play" he made, he gave up 3-4 big plays.

I'll take Newman like production over that any day.

If you look at the past SB champs... Did the Steelers have a top cornerback in ints? Nope.

Did the Giants have a top cb in ints when they won? Nope

Did the Colts have a top cb in ints when they won? Nope

Who cares about your corner getting 10 int's in a year. It's exciting, but it HARDLY translates to your TEAM having a top d. When was the last time a corner led the league in int's appeared on the #1 defense?

 

[AdamJT13]

14. Terence Newman: Newman has been considered a franchise cornerback-in-waiting since he was selected fifth overall in the 2003 draft, but there's no evidence he has played at that level since then. Teams don't avoid him like they do Nnamdi Asomugha, nor does he pick up large totals of passes defended or intercepted to match players like Asante Samuel or Charles Woodson. He's a useful cornerback who's usually effective at keeping plays in front of him, sure, but he's paid like an elite guy, without having established a history of playing like one.

Newman is regularly one of the least-targeted cornerbacks in the NFL, so teams do a pretty good job at avoiding him. And yet he still gets three or four interceptions almost every single season (five times in six years).

Newman has had at least four interceptions in four out of his six seasons. For comparison --

Champ Bailey also has had at least four interceptions in four seasons, but he's played 10 seasons. Charles Woodson has done it five times in 11 seasons. Asante Samuel has done it only three times in six years. Deion Sanders did it only six times in 14 seasons.

Chris McAlister has had four interceptions three times in 10 years, Shawn Springs four times in 12 seasons, Ronde Barber three times in 12 years, Marcus Trufant twice in six years, Al Harris once in 11 years. Antonio Cromartie has had more than two interceptions in only one of his three seasons. Nnamdi Asomugha has had more than one interception only one time in six seasons.

Basically, Newman is one of the league's top shutdown cornerbacks and one of the least-targeted cornerbacks and still gets his fair share of interceptions. The fact that he's on anyone's overrated list makes him vastly underrated.

22. Roy Williams (safety): Because conventional wisdom now says that Williams is overrated, he is no longer overrated, but you may be so used to thinking of him as overrated that you forget when he actually was overrated from 2003 to 2007, in which, despite his subpar pass coverage skills, he somehow made five straight Pro Bowls over players like Adrian Wilson and Mike Minter.

Mike Minter? Minter played the majority of his career before Roy ever made the Pro Bowl, and Minter was never considered one of the top safeties. Roy made the Pro Bowl "ahead of Minter" for the last four seasons of Minter's career -- 2003, 2004, 2005 and 2006. In 2003, Roy was runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year and was voted the No. 1 safety in the league by NFL scouts, GMs and coaches. He certainly deserved to go to the Pro Bowl ahead of Minter. In Minter's final three seasons, he had a TOTAL of two interceptions. Roy had 10. The only one of Roy's Pro Bowls that he didn't deserve came after Minter already was out of the league.

As far as Adrian Wilson, the only year he was worthy of the Pro Bowl but didn't go was 2005, the same year Roy became the first defensive back in at least five years to have at least three interceptions, 2.5 sacks and three forced fumbles for turnovers in one season (and scored a game-winning touchdown, recovered a fumble at the goal line and had five forced turnovers that either gave the Cowboys a touchdown, gave the Cowboys the ball inside the opponent's 15-yard line or stopped the opponent inside Dallas' 15). If Wilson should have gone to the Pro Bowl that season, it should have been in place of Mike Brown, not Roy.

 

[viman96]

I do not have access to the article and I'm wondering is Brooking's and Williams listed as Cowboys'? That would be stupid if true.

 

[UnoDallas]

Dude you've got to be kidding!!! As a center, snapping the ball from the shotgun formation is a very small part of his job, important yes, but very small. Gurode is a beast in the middle of our oline, he has pro bowler skills and blocks his arse off. He's by no means overrated at all, ask Albert Haynesworth about Gurodes skills. You're dogging the man for his snaps and completely overlooking the rest of his game. He's in the top 3 best centers in the game...

NO DUDE AM NOT Kidding

and what has Hanyeworth proven - oh right that he can be good
but will he ?????????????????????? thats the question
an when did that happen two years ago

" We all saw the infamous head stomp Tennessee DT Albert Haynesworth landed on the head of Dallas G David Gurode. Well, recently, I had received the latest issue of ESPN magazine, and in it they had an article going deeper into the incident. What I didn't realize, and what no one else on here probably did either, is that Gurode threatened to take out Haynesworths knees in the 1st quarter, and later on proceeded to actually try and do it. "

hes one off the worst Centers in league - hes lazy - forgets the snap count - - snaps all over the place - just not a pro style center in my book

IMO

Mangold has only had two penalties asgainst him since in the league

 

[JVita17]

He does more than enough imo.

I think someone not close to the situation would think he is overrated but if you're a Cowboy fan who has payed any attention at all you have seen him shut down some of the leagues best time and time again.

I would bet not many Corners in history have had a 3 year period like he did as far as not giving upTD's goes.

You have to kind of stay of the field to give up TDs.

 

[AdamJT13]

Mangold has only had two penalties asgainst him since in the league

Mangold has been penalized eight times in three seasons. Gurode has been penalized nine times in the past three seasons.

 

[UnoDallas]

Mangold has been penalized eight times in three seasons. Gurode has been penalized nine times in the past three seasons.

you are correct sir my fault

 

[Everlastingxxx]

Here's a question -- how many times in that game did Newman allow a catch that was thrown more than 5 yards downfield?


That catch was virtually irrelevant. And it certainly didn't "costed" the Cowboys the win.

I saw two touchdowns given up and a long bomb. I am sure there is more, go watch it yourself.

Steelers game, well i guess you don’t put any value into field position and giving a team confidence.

I like Newman, but he will get tested this season. He doesn’t have the luxury of having an old and slow Corner on the other side.

I like the jab with the quotations around the word “costed”. How’s the Roy Williams myth thread coming these days?

 

[28 Joker]

I saw two touchdowns given up and a long bomb. I am sure there is more, go watch it yourself.

Steelers game, well i guess you don’t put any value into field position and giving a team confidence.

I like Newman, but he will get tested this season. He doesn’t have the luxury of having an old and slow Corner on the other side.

I like the jab with the quotations around the word “costed”. How’s the Roy Williams myth thread coming these days?

In 2006, Anthony Henry gave Dallas his best year. That was before he lost a step or two. Henry led the NFL in targets according to Joyner, but he put up a 6.7 YPA. That was better than Newman's 7.1, but Henry had the most opportunities in the NFL due to Newman playing on the other side. Newman lost opportunites, because teams atttacked Henry. Plus, Henry played two games with one leg (New Orleans and Atlanta), and he was beaten in those games.

The point is that 2006 was by far Henry's best year in Dallas.

Also, in 2006, Henry had a 45% success percentage on passes targeted at him according to Joyner. If you are over 40%, that is considered quality or good according to Joyner's metrics on the cornerbacks.

However, Henry's success percentage dropped to 35% in 2008 according to Joyner. That was a huge drop off statistically and a drop off that was hidden (statistically) in 2007 because Henry missed significant games and played in the sub-packages, until he started again in December.

There was a TD in the first Washington game where Pat Watkins was supposed to switch with Newman, and he didn't. Newman couldn't get there. That is why they were supposed to switch near the endzone. That mental mistake by Watkins cost Dallas 4 points.

 

[Everlastingxxx]

In 2006, Anthony Henry gave Dallas his best year. That was before he lost a step or two. Henry led the NFL in targets according to Joyner, but he put up a 6.7 YPA. That was better than Newman's 7.1, but Henry had the most opportunities in the NFL due to Newman playing on the other side. Newman lost opportunites, because teams atttacked Henry. Plus, Henry played two games with one leg (New Orleans and Atlanta), and he was beaten in those games.

The point is that 2006 was by far Henry's best year in Dallas.

Also, in 2006, Henry had a 45% success rate on passes targeted at him according to Joyner. If you are over 40%, that is considered quality or good according to Joyner's metrics on the cornerbacks.

There was a TD in the first Washington game where Pat Watkins was supposed to switch with Newman, and he didn't. Newman couldn't get there. That is why they were supposed to switch near the endzone.

What does 2006 have to do with anything? Last season Henry was horrible. When teams needed a first down or a TD they would throw to his side. Look, i really don’t want to argue twisted stats, i like Newman...he did redeem himself in the second Skins game. But he will be tested next season with Scan shutting down the other side. When teams have attacked Newman, they have been able to make plays...so we will see.

 

[AdamJT13]

I saw two touchdowns given up and a long bomb. I am sure there is more, go watch it yourself.

I've watched it many times.

Again, how many catches did Newman allow in that entire game that were thrown more than 5 yards downfield? Do you know the answer? Do you even care?

Steelers game, well i guess you don’t put any value into field position and giving a team confidence.

So, if a team ever gets field position (regardless of whether it scores) or gets "confidence," the game is automatically lost -- even if you have the ball and a 10-point lead with less than 10 minutes to play in the fourth quarter? Interesting. That's like claiming the Seahawks' pass to Bobby Engram "costed" us the playoff game in Seattle -- not Terry Glenn's fumble for a safety, not the go-ahead TD pass to Jeremy Stevens and not Romo's botched hold. No, it had to be that 30-yard pass to Bobby Engram that led to zero points when we were up 20-13 in the fourth quarter.

No, I don't think I could agree with that. Nor would I agree that the Holmes' catch against Newman cost us the game against Pittsburgh, either. It wasn't his catch late in the third quarter that was his biggest play, it was his long punt return with 8:50 remaining that actually set up Pittsburgh to score. Even then, it was only a field goal. (The Steelers' offense gained a whole 2 yards on that possession -- some good that confidence did, huh? You'd think an offense with "confidence" might be able to score a touchdown or move the ball more than 2 yards.) That still left us with a seven-point lead AND the ball outside our own 40 with less than seven minutes to play. But certainly, our offense going three-and-out was Newman's fault, right? As was Paulescu's shanked punt, right? And those four completed pass against Henry and Hamlin on the Steelers' 67-yard TD drive, too, right? And Romo's pass that was returned for the winning TD, right? Certainly all Newman's fault because he allowed a catch during the third quarter, huh?

Nope, I'm still not buying it. We had two fourth-quarter punts that both had a much bigger impact on the game than the catch Newman allowed, not to mention numerous other plays on offense and defense during the fourth quarter. I'm not sure Holmes' catch is even deserving of the top 10 plays that cost us that game.

 

[AdamJT13]

What does 2006 have to do with anything?

You claimed that Newman "will get tested this season. He doesn’t have the luxury of having an old and slow Corner on the other side."

Newman didn't have that "luxury" in 2006, either. He had a cornerback who was playing very well, and he still wasn't tested very often.

And if you think teams have been able to make plays against Newman with any sort of regularity, you really haven't been paying enough attention during the past four seasons.

 

[28 Joker]

What does 2006 have to do with anything? Last season Henry was horrible. When teams needed a first down or a TD they would throw to his side. Look, i really don’t want to argue twisted stats, i like Newman...he did redeem himself in the second Skins game. But he will be tested next season with Scan shutting down the other side. When teams have attacked Newman, they have been able to make plays...so we will see.

You said that Newman wouldn't have an "old", "slow" CB next to him this year. You come off sounding like Newman wasn't the reason teams were throwing at Henry.

We'll Henry was very good in 2006, and he played two games on one leg.

That was the point.

The most targeted guy in the NFL was a good player that year.

He wasn't some scrub in 2006.

In 2006, Newman had one interception, in part, because he wasn't getting opportunities due to teams attacking Henry at a NFL league leading rate according to Joyner.

Asomugha gets one interception during 2007 and 2008, and he gets roses for not being "thrown at" from the media, and our guy's reputation gets falsely smeared by guys like this at ESPN.com, even though Newman has been one of the least targeted CBs in the NFL during his career and has put up a four year YPA average of 6.2 from 2004-2007 and has 20 career interceptions while playing in schemes that require him to play heavy man coverage and require him to defend the slot or the entire field in man coverage.

Newman's three year average success percentage, from 2005-2007, was 44.7 %. according to Joyner. That is very strong.

Plus, Newman put up a 40.4% success percentage in 2008, and he did it with a severe injury and despite missing 5 games.

All CBs give up plays in the NFL. The other guys get paid, too. The rules are slanted toward the offense. I've seen Samuel, Bailey, and Woodson roasted on more than one occassion. Steve Smith roasted Woodson last year. Terrell Owens roasted Bailey, big time in 2005. Newman has shut both those players down and done it twice.

Asante Samuel is a guy that has been really attacked in the NFL. He's ranked in the top 20 of CBs targeted before. Newman is the guy not being attacked as much as some of the other "top" CBs in the NFL.

When you put up these YPA stats (5.8, 5.8, 7.1, 6.1/Joyner) and average 6.2 YPA over that four year period, from 2004-2007, you are consistently winning the battles on the edge and out of the slot.

Newman isn't getting beat any where near like you are trying to say. Those numbers say that he isn't getting beat.

If your YPA is under 7.0, that is outstanding or "red", and you don't accumulate those stats by "getting beat", "any time" teams "want to attack you"".

Again, the writer says Samuel, Woodson, and Bailey are all better than Newman, but all three of those players have given up more big plays than Newman has given up since 2004. It will show up in their YPA during that time period. I don't know Newman's 2003 YPA, but he had a great rookie year. It was very strong. Asomugha didn't even start until 2005, and his YPA rated 10th to Newman's 2nd in Vela's analysis of Joyner's YPA stats.

I wouldn't count Mike Jenkins out just, yet.

I hope they do throw at Newman, because they will pay.

 

[Everlastingxxx]

I've watched it many times.

Again, how many catches did Newman allow in that entire game that were thrown more than 5 yards downfield? Do you know the answer? Do you even care?

Honestly, i don’t care. I never agreed with your expert film analysis of Roy Williams and the TDs he gave up. I am sure i won’t agree with your thoughts about this pet peeve and his plays.

Nor would I agree that the Holmes' catch against Newman cost us the game against Pittsburgh, either.

Well, i disagree. The Cowboys had just sacked Big Ben...we were killing them on Defense. Killing them. They had nothing...until.

 

[Everlastingxxx]

You claimed that Newman "will get tested this season. He doesn’t have the luxury of having an old and slow Corner on the other side."

Newman didn't have that "luxury" in 2006, either. He had a cornerback who was playing very well, and he still wasn't tested very often.

And if you think teams have been able to make plays against Newman with any sort of regularity, you really haven't been paying enough attention during the past four seasons.

Sorry, i don’t get the logic you guys are using. So are you saying in 2006 Henry was better than Newman? Basic logic says teams attack the lesser corner. Regardless, i think Scan and Jenkins will not only be a huge upgrade but i think will challenge Newman as the best corner on the team. My bet is Scan will have more INTs and pass deflections. Also, Newman will get hurt...again.

 

[Everlastingxxx]

I hope they do throw at Newman, because they will pay.

They will, we shall see.

 

[28 Joker]

They will, we shall see.

Bring D. Hixon and Steve Smith on.

# 41 will be waiting.

 

[28 Joker]

Newman is regularly one of the least-targeted cornerbacks in the NFL, so teams do a pretty good job at avoiding him. And yet he still gets three or four interceptions almost every single season (five times in six years).

Newman has had at least four interceptions in four out of his six seasons. For comparison --

Champ Bailey also has had at least four interceptions in four seasons, but he's played 10 seasons. Charles Woodson has done it five times in 11 seasons. Asante Samuel has done it only three times in six years. Deion Sanders did it only six times in 14 seasons.

Chris McAlister has had four interceptions three times in 10 years, Shawn Springs four times in 12 seasons, Ronde Barber three times in 12 years, Marcus Trufant twice in six years, Al Harris once in 11 years. Antonio Cromartie has had more than two interceptions in only one of his three seasons. Nnamdi Asomugha has had more than one interception only one time in six seasons.

Basically, Newman is one of the league's top shutdown cornerbacks and one of the least-targeted cornerbacks and still gets his fair share of interceptions. The fact that he's on anyone's overrated list makes him vastly underrated.




Mike Minter? Minter played the majority of his career before Roy ever made the Pro Bowl, and Minter was never considered one of the top safeties. Roy made the Pro Bowl "ahead of Minter" for the last four seasons of Minter's career -- 2003, 2004, 2005 and 2006. In 2003, Roy was runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year and was voted the No. 1 safety in the league by NFL scouts, GMs and coaches. He certainly deserved to go to the Pro Bowl ahead of Minter. In Minter's final three seasons, he had a TOTAL of two interceptions. Roy had 10. The only one of Roy's Pro Bowls that he didn't deserve came after Minter already was out of the league.

As far as Adrian Wilson, the only year he was worthy of the Pro Bowl but didn't go was 2005, the same year Roy became the first defensive back in at least five years to have at least three interceptions, 2.5 sacks and three forced fumbles for turnovers in one season (and scored a game-winning touchdown, recovered a fumble at the goal line and had five forced turnovers that either gave the Cowboys a touchdown, gave the Cowboys the ball inside the opponent's 15-yard line or stopped the opponent inside Dallas' 15). If Wilson should have gone to the Pro Bowl that season, it should have been in place of Mike Brown, not Roy.

That was one major league, 102%, Grade A BEAT DOWN!



Thanks for the help.

 

[28 Joker]

I want to give a big shout out to these guys for sticking up for Terence Newman. I read all your posts, and you all scored big points. The help is appreciated. Don't wait for me. You need to jump in and counter these smears, smears that keep coming from ESPN.com.

187beatdown
Ren
Apollo Creed
Catch 17
daschoo
Muhast
CLab
Cowboy McCoy
Prossman
Micheal Winicki
Future
Dash 28
thechosein2
Three Sports Star 80
AdamJT13


Don't let the Cowboys biased East Coast media at ESPN smear Terence Newman's stellar reputation, within the NFL, with false statements or comments that are not true.

Don't let them get away with it.

I saw the other comments that defended the other players listed, too. Flozell Adams has been one of the top LT in the NFL for a while. There are not that many elite ones to begin with.

 

[Idgit]

..I like the jab with the quotations around the word “costed”. How’s the Roy Williams myth thread coming these days?

You know, the old you-kicked-my-***-in-that-other-thread-so-I-think-I-might-as-well-reference-that-in-this-new-debate tactic is really underappreciated as a rhetorical device. I wonder why we don't see more posters using it?