Federal Search Warrant Executed on Vick House

peplaw06

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Vintage;1522184 said:
You can't bring the SEC into this. That's not fair. The government takes money FAR more seriously than dog fighting.

And if dog bodies are found on the property by the Agriculture Commission, it still doesnt link Vick to the dog fighting itself.

All it does is establish that there was dog fighting on the premises, which by now, everyone assumes to be true anyway.

I don't think that's the point he was making. The point is the federal branches outside the FBI are pretty zealous in their investigations. You know, how an IRS audit is like a full rectal exam?

Those departments are more specialized than the FBI who investigate just about anything. The Agriculture Commission for example is focused on things like this. Probably means less work and a more thorough job done.
 

StanleySpadowski

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peplaw06;1522191 said:
I don't think that's the point he was making. The point is the federal branches outside the FBI are pretty zealous in their investigations. You know, how an IRS audit is like a full rectal exam?

Those departments are more specialized than the FBI who investigate just about anything. The Agriculture Commission for example is focused on things like this. Probably means less work and a more thorough job done.


That was more or less my point.

The FBI seems to look at a situation and say "A crime has been committed, let's find out who did it."

Some other federal agencies say "That person is dirty, let's see what crimes they committed."

It's the Capone/tax evasion approach and it's a lot easier to start at the person and work back to a crime than vice versa.
 

Jarv

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StanleySpadowski;1522200 said:
That was more or less my point.

The FBI seems to look at a situation and say "A crime has been committed, let's find out who did it."

Some other federal agencies say "That person is dirty, let's see what crimes they committed."

It's the Capone/tax evasion approach and it's a lot easier to start at the person and work back to a crime than vice versa.

Interesting point, think Vick made cash money on the dog fighting and didn't pay tax's on it ? Not sure how dog fighting works, does the house get a share of the money ?
 

Vintage

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Jarv;1522203 said:
Interesting point, think Vick made cash money on the dog fighting and didn't pay tax's on it ? Not sure how dog fighting works, does the house get a share of the money ?


Ask CrazyCowboy.
 

silverbear

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Vintage;1522098 said:
Yeah, except for it being the FBI or the CIA or something like that....

Its the Department of Agriculture.

LOL....


This is their acting body and its role:

Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service


IOW, they are there to do their jobs. Inspect and see whats going on. It makes sense that they got the warrant to search the premises as its within their scope of jurisdiction and job titlement. But in no way, shape, or form does it mean an indictment is necessarily coming forward.

And when an indictment doesn't ensue, I am sure I can count on some here to tell me it was a conspiracy and the Vick paid off the "feds" as well.

I look forward to that.

You sound like you think he's innocent...
 

StanleySpadowski

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Jarv;1522203 said:
Interesting point, think Vick made cash money on the dog fighting and didn't pay tax's on it ? Not sure how dog fighting works, does the house get a share of the money ?

I have no idea if the house gets a cut.

But if the betting numbers floating around are even remotely accurate, Vick is either a terrible gambler or there's a year out there where he had some substantial unreported income.

The flip side to that is if he reported his illegal gambling gains. Documents signed under penalty of law usually hold up well in court.
 

Verdict

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peplaw06;1521479 said:
I haven't been paying much attention to what Poindexter is doing... hell I thought it was a made up name, making fun of the guy doing the searching.

But he sounds pretty incompetent. A search warrant was issued May 23, but he hasn't executed it because he "doesn't want to jeopardize the investigation??" Well NOT executing a valid search warrant is most definitely jeopardizing the investigation Poindexter. Now if there are validity issues, I can see holding off, but it shouldn't take two weeks to rectify those issues.

And he said that he has enough evidence to hand down indictments?? WOW. It takes next to nothing to get an indictment Poindexter. He shouldn't be seeking an indictment if he thinks there was wrongdoing, he should be seeking conviction. You need way more evidence for that. The kind of evidence that has probably been removed in his delay in executing the search warrant. Genius. He must have some bets riding on Vick, or season tickets.

"Search warrants" generally have to be executed within a certain time frame, or they are invalid. Moreover, generally, once law enforcement are granted a warrant to search they usually "immediately" conduct the search. This comment makes zero sense.
 

silverbear

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Vintage;1522184 said:
You can't bring the SEC into this. That's not fair. The government takes money FAR more seriously than dog fighting.

And if dog bodies are found on the property by the Agriculture Commission, it still doesnt link Vick to the dog fighting itself.

All it does is establish that there was dog fighting on the premises, which by now, everyone assumes to be true anyway.

Then the government trots out all those witnesses who will testify that no matter what Vick says, he was a regular "visitor" to that property... apparently (according the chief Vick defender Poindexter himself) there are a number of people lined up who will testify that he attended dog fights, that he had dogs doing the fighting... in addition, there are two employees of a nearby store, and the store's owner, who have been quoted as saying he was in their store regularly, buying supplies for those dogs...

And like I said, if dog bodies are found, some 30 of them, on a property where MICHAEL VICK is licensed to breed and raise FIFTY dogs, no juror with a lick of sense is gonna believe that 30 dogs died at his "dog breeding" operation, and he didn't check to find out what the bleep was goin' on...

So the dog bodies will establish that there was dog fighting goin' on there, and the witnesses will establish that Vick's lyin' through his teeth when he claims ignorance of what was goin' on there, and COMMON SENSE would tell them that a dog breeder would notice when 30 of the 50 dogs he was licensed to breed turned up dead on him, and would most assuredly look into what was goin' on there...

A little applied logic, combined with a knowledge of the case, will give you a pretty fair idea what the government's case against Ron Mexico will consist of-- even if they don't find any dog carcasses at all on the property...

I suspect they won't find anything in the way of dog carcasses, because the place clearly hasn't been guarded at all by the local law since the raid... not with all the crap that got stolen from there (unless, of course, the law enforcement types assigned to guard the place helped themselves)... and it was over a week ago that we learned in the press what the original search warrant was looking for, so surely Vick and his crew would know they needed to get such evidence off the property ASAP...

Doesn't matter, they have all the evidence they need that the place was used for fighting dogs, and breeding fighting dogs... animals with old scarring, blood-soaked carpet, pry bars used to open the dog's jaws...

If you take the time to inform yourself as to the known evidence available, it presents a veritable mountain of evidence, all pointing to Vick's guilt... and how do we know that the government doesn't have more, that there aren't some cards they're playing close to the vest??
 

Vintage

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silverbear;1522225 said:
Then the government trots out all those witnesses who will testify that no matter what Vick says, he was a regular "visitor" to that property... apparently (according the chief Vick defender Poindexter himself) there are a number of people lined up who will testify that he attended dog fights, that he had dogs doing the fighting... in addition, there are two employees of a nearby store, and the store's owner, who have been quoted as saying he was in their store regularly, buying supplies for those dogs...

Wait, if Poindexter is crooked, then how can we trust what he says at all?

And anytime you have people taking deals to testify against someone else, the jury will become aware of that. Its far from a slam dunk. And since some probably already have records (since dog fighting leads to other crimes as I am told), it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that the defense will bring that up in order to taint the witness testimony.

And Vick was regularly buying supplies? Or the people living in the house?

And like I said, if dog bodies are found, some 30 of them, on a property where MICHAEL VICK is licensed to breed and raise FIFTY dogs, no juror with a lick of sense is gonna believe that 30 dogs died at his "dog breeding" operation, and he didn't check to find out what the bleep was goin' on...

And OJ wasn't supposed to get off murder charges, either. Again, this case if far from a slam dunk. Or a Mike Vanderjagt game winning field goal against the Commanders (wait......)

So the dog bodies will establish that there was dog fighting goin' on there,

I already conceeded that.

and the witnesses will establish that Vick's lyin' through his teeth when he claims ignorance of what was goin' on there,

Maybe. Maybe not.

A little applied logic, combined with a knowledge of the case, will give you a pretty fair idea what the government's case against Ron Mexico will consist of-- even if they don't find any dog carcasses at all on the property...

I suspect they won't find anything in the way of dog carcasses, because the place clearly hasn't been guarded at all by the local law since the raid... not with all the crap that got stolen from there (unless, of course, the law enforcement types assigned to guard the place helped themselves)... and it was over a week ago that we learned in the press what the original search warrant was looking for, so surely Vick and his crew would know they needed to get such evidence off the property ASAP...

Doesn't matter, they have all the evidence they need that the place was used for fighting dogs, and breeding fighting dogs... animals with old scarring, blood-soaked carpet, pry bars used to open the dog's jaws...

You accuse me of not knowing the case? Of course I don't. I am not actually investigating it. But the "blood soaked" carpets have now become carpets with "some blood sprinkled" on or something like that.

And when it was first reported, there were allegations of all the dogs with scarring (or most with scarring). Now it has only become a couple. My concerns are how much of this has been sensationalized by the media (because the carpet and the # of dogs have already backtracked; I wonder if more has been sensationalized)


If you take the time to inform yourself as to the known evidence available, it presents a veritable mountain of evidence, all pointing to Vick's guilt... and how do we know that the government doesn't have more, that there aren't some cards they're playing close to the vest??

Couldn't the same be said for the defense? I mean, Vick hasn't given his side of the case. Last I heard, his lawyers haven't yet begun to attack the evidence.
 

Vintage

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superpunk;1522229 said:
You've got to be ****tin me.

Its like a bad nightmare that keeps coming back.

I mean, I guess I could just put it all in "caps" that I am not defending Vick nor condoning dog fight.....

But to what purpose?

People can't differentiate between attacking something (be it a case, calling to see all the sides of an argument before making a conclusion) and defending the alleged person.
 

peplaw06

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Verdict;1522224 said:
"Search warrants" generally have to be executed within a certain time frame, or they are invalid. Moreover, generally, once law enforcement are granted a warrant to search they usually "immediately" conduct the search. This comment makes zero sense.
I agree. That's why I said Poindexter sounds incompetent.
 

Chocolate Lab

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Vintage, you're talking about a conviction. Silverbear only said he expected an indictment.

And you used the O.J. case as an example... For what, I'm not sure. That rich, guilty people sometimes beat the rap? Well, no kidding. Doesn't mean they didn't actually commit the crime, which is what really matters to most people.
 

DLCassidy

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Vintage;1522098 said:
And when an indictment doesn't ensue, I am sure I can count on some here to tell me it was a conspiracy and the Vick paid off the "feds" as well.

I look forward to that.

Why do you look forward to it? Are you skeptical that Vick was actually involved or skeptical that the feds can gather enough evidence?
 

GimmeTheBall!

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5Stars;1521616 said:
:laugh2:

Pet Cemetary...

"Pet Sematary."

And when Big Dakota writes about a stephen king feel, he is just fantasizing about feeling up Stephen King.

;)
 

GimmeTheBall!

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ConcordCowboy;1522183 said:
"There's a larger thing here, and it has nothing to do with any breach of protocol," Poindexter said. "There's something awful going on here. I don't know if it's racial. I don't know what it is."


=========================================================
This guy is jackazz Idiot.

He should be fired.

Ah, Poindexter. He doesn't know what it is. Yet he brings up race.
But, he does not know what it is.
Could it be an illegal dog fighting operation?
Also, methinks if Poindexter looks up say, 100 prosecutions by his office in the last year, he will find that none are celebrities. Yet they were prosecuted. Well, celebrities sometimes get prosecuted, too.
This D.A. makes the Duke rape case D.A. like a genius.

:)
 

Vintage

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DLCassidy;1522348 said:
Why do you look forward to it? Are you skeptical that Vick was actually involved or skeptical that the feds can gather enough evidence?

I was being sarcastic.
 

Vintage

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Here is an opposing view point

http://east-coast-bias.blogspot.com/2007/06/feds-jump-into-vick-investigation.html

Feds Jump Into Vick Investigation

I was more than a little confused by the news this morning that federal authorities have joined the Michael Vick dogfighting investigation in Surry County, Virginia. The only federal law against dogfighting is found in 7 U.S.C. 2156, which generally prohibits dogfighting where the dogs have been transported across state lines (a jurisdictional "hook" to get the crime under the Commerce Clause of the U.S. Constitution). Paragraph (f) of that code section allows the Secretary of Agriculture (former Nebraska Governor Mike Johanns) to enlist the FBI in investigating possible dogfighting infractions. The crime was recently made a felony by a bill signed May 7, 2007. It would appear to me that Vick would only be facing the previous misdemeanor penalties.


Naturally, I expect someone in the federal government to be standing behind a podium within the next couple days to announce the government's crackdown on dogfighting. Why not? It's a welcome diversion from other problems that are actually within the federal government's scope of expertise (foreign affairs, immigration, social security, etc.). Surry County Commonwealth's Attorney Gerald Poindexter has seemingly nailed the Secretary's motivation, noting that they only care about dogfighting in his rural county because Michael Vick is reportedly involved. Poindexter, who has done everything in his power to deflect attention away from the story (and perhaps preserve the last few impartial jurors left) while he conducts his investigation, will now have to integrate the federal findings and his own investigation.


fed_gun.jpg
blahblabblahblahlahhblahblah Feds to the rescue!

Why would he have to integrate the federal findings? Because they are not going to prosecute the case. The federal statute is generally the state crime, with the added element of interstate commerce, and thus is that much harder to prove. The Feds will come in and putz around for a few weeks before turning boxes of dirt over to Poindexter. I'm sure they'll wish him luck as the black Suburbans head back up I-64 and I-95.

Then again, perhaps I should have more confidence in the investigatory abilities possessed by the Federal Government. They did compentently handle the Atlanta Olympic Park Bombing, Eric Rudolph, the Unabomber, the JFK assassination, the MLK assassination, the first World Trade Center bombing, D.B. Cooper, Jimmy Hoffa, the anthrax mailings, Waco, Ruby Ridge, Elian Gonzalez, etc. etc. etc.

I also can't help but question the timing of the FBI's involvement. The news media has vaguely reported that Mr. Poindexter declined to execute a search warrant that he felt was deficient. That warrant, which purported to authorize a search of Vick's premises for the corpses of dogs, expired yesterday. In my opinion, the news media would love to see a bunch of investigators digging holes all over the property, perhaps even unearthing some carcasses. From the prosecutor's point of view, the dog corpses are not even close to conclusive evidence of dogfighting. This isn't CSI-Surry; the bones or carcasses will likely not provide definitive proof of any of the elements needed to prove the state crimes. The corpses certainly would not link any particular person to the crime, unless Michael Vick's driver's license fell in one of the holes. Plus, the normal rule of executing a warrant as quickly as possible to prevent the spoliation of evidence does not apply when you are looking for buried dog corpses. Anyone entering the property with the intention of removing or moving the bodies would be a prohibitive favorite for America's dumbest criminal.
bones.jpg
blahblablahhblahblah What a jury expects to see at trial

The investigation, at least as it was directed by Mr. Poindexter, was being conducted methodically. The first six letters of methodically are method. If Mr. Poindexter goes to trial with 40 hours of evidence that dogfighting occurred on the property, but no evidence that links any single person to the actual enterprise, no one will be convicted. Unlike the Feds, Mr. Poindexter's duty is to the people of Surry County and the Commonwealth of Virginia. Exposing dogfighting in his county without punishing any of the people responsible for it would not serve that duty. It appears the Feds may swoop in and lay waste to Mr. Poindexter's plan.
 

Concord

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GimmeTheBall!;1522366 said:
Ah, Poindexter. He doesn't know what it is. Yet he brings up race.
But, he does not know what it is.
Could it be an illegal dog fighting operation?
Also, methinks if Poindexter looks up say, 100 prosecutions by his office in the last year, he will find that none are celebrities. Yet they were prosecuted. Well, celebrities sometimes get prosecuted, too.
This D.A. makes the Duke rape case D.A. like a genius.

:)

And that was damn near impossible.
 
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