Has the Rooney rule helped or hurt minorities?

[WoodysGirl]

the same guys keep coming up though; that is the way it always is. New guys enter the process all the time. The Rooney rule changed nothing that would not have happened anyway. things were already changing before the rule was brought in- and the ONLY reason the rule came was because Jessie Jackson and the other welfare pimps were going to try and extort the NFL.

Sometimes I wonder how much you think before you post.

 

[Doomsday101]

the same guys keep coming up though; that is the way it always is. New guys enter the process all the time. The Rooney rule changed nothing that would not have happened anyway. things were already changing before the rule was brought in- and the ONLY reason the rule came was because Jessie Jackson and the other welfare pimps were going to try and extort the NFL.

I'm no fan of Jesse and I don't think the Rooney rule is some cure all but I think it does allow guys to leave an impression that could help them get a shot down the road. In ways it is like the program the NFL has with college and high school coaches where they get a chance to come in an observe and work with teams during the off-season.

 

[superpunk]

the same guys keep coming up though; that is the way it always is. New guys enter the process all the time. The Rooney rule changed nothing that would not have happened anyway. things were already changing before the rule was brought in- and the ONLY reason the rule came was because Jessie Jackson and the other welfare pimps were going to try and extort the NFL.

I see you've studied this extensively. I'll defer to your extensive knowledge, no doubt gained from listening to the radios, and teh radios showz.

Welfare, homies.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I've followed Dungy for a long time. One thing folks may forget is that back in the 80's when he was DC in Pittsburg, he was regularly mentioned as a guy who would likely become a head coach. It took him until 1995 to get a job. The situation was so ridiculous that Dungy would be interviewed yearly during NFL pre-games etc. about why he wasn't getting a HC job (interviewed by the press, not by teams). Think about all the crap coaches hired instead of him during that period and you can see why many believe there was a serious discrimination problem.

I remember that Abs. I actually thought that he was a DB coach in Pittsburgh as opposed to DC but I totally agree with you Abs. I actually posted the same thing about Lovie Smith. Same exact thing happened to Lovie when he was with Tampa Bay and the Rams. He just kept turning out great defensive teams and kept being mentioned as a good HC prospect and never got a shot. Heck, he spent 12 years in college before Tony Dungy finally gave him a chance to come coach in the Pros. I mean, you gotta ask yourself, if Tony wouldn't have asked, what are the chances that Lovie Smith ever gets an opportunity to come to the NFL?

We're not talking twenty years ago either. Lovie Smith has only been a HC in the NFL for 3 seasons. It definatly took him a long time to reach the point he's at now and I don't know how anybody could say that the Rooney rule didn't help Smith get hired in Chicago. People forget that Lovie Smith was not the Bears first choice as HC. Back in 2004, the Bears wanted Saban, Crennel and Mora Jr. more. All went to other teams. The Bears even wanted Grimm more but Grimm was not as interested because of the money. Smith was probably the last guy on there list.

 

[Maikeru-sama]

I really doubt that it made any difference. No one will PUBLICLY criticise it since the racists will immediately attack you as being racist.
And someone trying to blame all the minority problems on the majority is just as much a racist as anyone wearing a sheet. To be brutally honest, right now black culture sets up the average black youth for failure. Education, dignity, politeness, hard work, etc is all denegrated by the rap culture that permeates young black youth today. And has for a while. As long as that persists, there will be massive failures. That is something the black leadership refuses to confront- and when someone like Bill Cosby does, he gets ripped by his own people.

So if we get rid of Rap then we get rid of Racism, Ignorance and Intolerance toward Blacks that has permeated through this country from the start?

We know that isnt true because we know the 3 aforementioned subjects existed before Rap was even a gleam in its fathers eye.

Interesting take, flawed but quite insteresting.

- Mike G.

 

[superpunk]

So if we get rid of Rap then we get rid of Racism, Ignorance and Intolerance toward Blacks that has permeated through this country from the start?

We know that isnt true because we know the 3 aforementioned subjects existed before Rap was even a gleam in its fathers eye.

Interesting take, flawed but quite insteresting.

- Mike G.

I work with alot of good ole' boys. It's not that they're racist, it's just they make backhanded comments and stuff like that, and to be honest, when they were growing up, there were probably no other races around. I know when I went to school, after they closed Fort Ritchie, we might have had 5 black kids in a class of 250, and even fewer asians or hispanics. It's a long way of getting around to the fact that I'm not a big fan of rap, in general (as in, I don't know who any of the artists save the big guys are) and don't listen to it much. But I do get more done when I do listen to it, whether it be working out or just doing work.

So, if I'm in a crunch, I love changing the satellite radio to one of the rap stations, and watching their faces as they walk by. Always grumbling about "that rap-crap"....they crack me up. That's who I imagine burm to be. (and yeah - they're ALL big supporters of the elephant.)

Wouldn't a welfare pimp be a guy who like sold welfare to other people - then, those people's real jobs get all ticked off - and they're like "How could you cheat on me? Who was it? Was it welfare again?"

That damn welfare.....

 

[Maikeru-sama]

Look folks, this subject has been beaten to death Nth number of times on this site.

People need to come to grips with 2 concepts.

Racism is a Human Condition, not an American Condition. You go to every country in the World, you will find that there are groups that are being discriminated against. Differences have been made since the beginning of time and will probably continue to be that way.

The other concept is, people feel comfortable being around others who share common mores, traits and ethos. Is this Racist, in some forms it will manifest itself that way, in other ways, it is all about what level one person one has with another.

Look at it like this and the following example has no doubt happened on many occassions in the State of Texas.

You have a highering manager that got his degree from Texas A&M. You have two candidates that are fully qualified for the positon, but one has a degree from Texas A&M and the other has one from Texas. You will never convince me that the guy from Texas isnt at a disadvantage. This is not the greatest example but it is a pretty good one.

I believe the same mechanisms are at play more times than people want to admit if you substitute degrees with Race, Gender, Class.

- Mike G.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Look folks, this subject has been beaten to death Nth number of times on this site.

People need to come to grips with 2 concepts.

Racism is a Human Condition, not an American Condition. You go to every country in the World, you will find that there are groups that are being discriminated against. Differences have been made since the beginning of time and will probably continue to be that way.

The other concept is, people feel comfortable being around others who share common mores, traits and ethos. Is this Racist, in some forms it will manifest itself that way, in other ways, it is all about what level one person one has with another.

Look at it like this and the following example has no doubt happened on many occassions in the State of Texas.

You have a highering manager that got his degree from Texas A&M. You have two candidates that are fully qualified for the positon, but one has a degree from Texas A&M and the other has one from Texas. You will never convince me that the guy from Texas isnt at a disadvantage. This is not the greatest example but it is a pretty good one.

I believe the same mechanisms are at play more times than people want to admit if you substitute degrees with Race, Gender, Class.

- Mike G.

Wait just a &*$damn minute here! Texas A&M over UT? You go to far my little College Station friend.

 

[AbeBeta]

the ONLY reason the rule came was because Jessie Jackson and the other welfare pimps were going to try and extort the NFL.

I appreciate that you do not approve of the policy. But there is no place for racist remarks like this.

 

[sacase]

So if we get rid of Rap then we get rid of Racism, Ignorance and Intolerance toward Blacks that has permeated through this country from the start?

We know that isnt true because we know the 3 aforementioned subjects existed before Rap was even a gleam in its fathers eye.

Interesting take, flawed but quite insteresting.

- Mike G.

No I think it is a flat out denial. I mean I don't think we have done to bad considering we were taken into slavery for 400 years, our culture completly destroyed, tured out on our ear a little over 100's years ago with nothing, no education, no money, no land and no civil rights. 40 years ago we finally obtained "equal rights" Now we have started to come up in the world. Yes rap music has objectified women, but rap music has also created many millionairs. listen to some of the rappers from the early 90's listen to what they talked about, even now I am jut realizing how intelligent many of them are. Rap music today is just main stream entertainment. Its what people want to hear. Weak minded people get caught up and think it is true. Strong minded enjoy it and move. Same as Rock, same as Country same as heavy metal. But rap music is a convinent way for certain people to claim there is no racism and every problem is our own.

Now back to the Roonie rule. I think it is an excellent rule. The interview might be a token interview but it accmplishes a coupel things. It gets the coach used to talking to the owners and gets used to the interview process so he beomes more familier with it and understands the best way to present himself. The second thing is even if the owner has his mind set of wanting to hire a certain head coach he still has to sit down with the minority coach. If he is impressed he mentions it to his other owner buddies and then perhaps a year or two later he gets a legitimate shot at being a head coach. Excellent rule in my opinion because people are still getting hired based on merit.

 

[Maikeru-sama]

No I think it is a flat out denial. I mean I don't think we have done to bad considering we were taken into slavery for 400 years, our culture completly destroyed, tured out on our ear a little over 100's years ago with nothing, no education, no money, no land and no civil rights. 40 years ago we finally obtained "equal rights" Now we have started to come up in the world. Yes rap music has objectified women, but rap music has also created many millionairs. listen to some of the rappers from the early 90's listen to what they talked about, even now I am jut realizing how intelligent many of them are. Rap music today is just main stream entertainment. Its what people want to hear. Weak minded people get caught up and think it is true. Strong minded enjoy it and move. Same as Rock, same as Country same as heavy metal. But rap music is a convinent way for certain people to claim there is no racism and every problem is our own.

I agree.

I like your thoughts on the matter especially your thoughts that 'the weak minded get caught up'. Is there anymore violence in Rap Music then in say, The Sopranos? I dont listen to Rap all that much anymore and I have only seen part of 1 episode of the Sopranos because I dont have HBO and it is now in syndication with A&E. What about violence in Rap compared to some of these Big Blockbuster Action movies Hollywood enjoys pumping out on a regular basis? I saw Children of Men a couple of weeks ago, lots of Violence in that movie and I am pretty sure I didnt go buy a gun and start shooting people.

Now back to the Roonie rule. I think it is an excellent rule. The interview might be a token interview but it accmplishes a coupel things. It gets the coach used to talking to the owners and gets used to the interview process so he beomes more familier with it and understands the best way to present himself. The second thing is even if the owner has his mind set of wanting to hire a certain head coach he still has to sit down with the minority coach. If he is impressed he mentions it to his other owner buddies and then perhaps a year or two later he gets a legitimate shot at being a head coach. Excellent rule in my opinion because people are still getting hired based on merit.

Yeah, and I think people are really kidding themselves if they think Minorities are getting hired over non-minorities because of Race.

As I am quite sure Jerry Jones and the other Billionaire owners are going to hire who they want to hire, period end of subject.

- Mike G.

 

[Maikeru-sama]

I work with alot of good ole' boys. It's not that they're racist, it's just they make backhanded comments and stuff like that, and to be honest, when they were growing up, there were probably no other races around. I know when I went to school, after they closed Fort Ritchie, we might have had 5 black kids in a class of 250, and even fewer asians or hispanics. It's a long way of getting around to the fact that I'm not a big fan of rap, in general (as in, I don't know who any of the artists save the big guys are) and don't listen to it much. But I do get more done when I do listen to it, whether it be working out or just doing work.

So, if I'm in a crunch, I love changing the satellite radio to one of the rap stations, and watching their faces as they walk by. Always grumbling about "that rap-crap"....they crack me up. That's who I imagine burm to be. (and yeah - they're ALL big supporters of the elephant.)

Wouldn't a welfare pimp be a guy who like sold welfare to other people - then, those people's real jobs get all ticked off - and they're like "How could you cheat on me? Who was it? Was it welfare again?"

That damn welfare.....

:laugh2:

- Mike G.

 

[burmafrd]

Bill Cosby put it right in their faces and they jumped him. As regards the rooney rule, I well remember that Jackson and the rest of his posse were making a move towards making trouble and the NFL did the rule to head him off. Look at Jacksons record for extorting companies by threatening to boycot them- its hard to find since most of the media protect him.
As regards the rap culture- I have to laugh at the many millionaire's remark. How many- maybe 100 at most. And how many youths take what they say as gospel and get in trouble? And trying to blame everyone else for their problems is the typical response from the professional victims. The Irish and other groups had it pretty bad in this country- and they pulled themselves out of it. Up through the 60's and early 70's the black people were slowly but steadily pulling themselves out of it- what has happened since then? Welfare followed by rap and the rest of the so called Black culture. And what good has it done? ALways blame someone else instead of looking in the mirror- look at the so called black leadership and you can see the problems right there.

 

[BulletBob]

Now back to the Roonie rule. I think it is an excellent rule. The interview might be a token interview but it accmplishes a coupel things. It gets the coach used to talking to the owners and gets used to the interview process so he beomes more familier with it and understands the best way to present himself. The second thing is even if the owner has his mind set of wanting to hire a certain head coach he still has to sit down with the minority coach. If he is impressed he mentions it to his other owner buddies and then perhaps a year or two later he gets a legitimate shot at being a head coach. Excellent rule in my opinion because people are still getting hired based on merit.

OK, sacase, I see your point, and the results may back you up - there are more African-American head coaches in the league since the rule was put into play (and this is a good thing). Whether there is a causal relationship has not yet been definitively established ... though anecdotal evidence may point in that direction.

But here is my question. Woody'sGirl posted an article in which Sherman was complaining that he had not yet been interviewed because he felt that the trend was pointing toward younger and younger head coaches. Couldn't this be considered age discrimination?

The fundamental logic behind the Rooney rule is that since a class of individuals is being discriminated against based on the current demographics of the head coaching position, the situation can be remedied by forcing owners to at least interview one member of the discriminated class.

Where does that logic end?

If the trend toward younger coaches continues (and the mean age of a Head Coach drifts toward 45), should the NFL require owners to interview at least one candidate over the age of 50?

And how about the fact that there are no female head coaches in the NFL? Should the NFL require owners to interview at least one female candidate for head coaching positions?

I understand that this may seem a bit absurd, but I use these examples to point out that the fundamental logic behind the Rooney Rule may not be as sound as it appears on its surface.

 

[InmanRoshi]

If not for the Rooney Rule, Mike Tomlin would not have gotten the job in Pittsburgh. He was given a shot at an interview, and he hit a homerun.

In the off chance that Singletary gets the job in Dallas, I would dare say the would have never gotten the job if not for the Rooney Rule.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

OK, sacase, I see your point, and the results may back you up - there are more African-American head coaches in the league since the rule was put into play (and this is a good thing). Whether there is a causal relationship has not yet been definitively established ... though anecdotal evidence may point in that direction.

But here is my question. Woody'sGirl posted an article in which Sherman was complaining that he had not yet been interviewed because he felt that the trend was pointing toward younger and younger head coaches. Couldn't this be considered age discrimination?

The fundamental logic behind the Rooney rule is that since a class of individuals is being discriminated against based on the current demographics of the head coaching position, the situation can be remedied by forcing owners to at least interview one member of the discriminated class.

Where does that logic end?

If the trend toward younger coaches continues (and the mean age of a Head Coach drifts toward 45), should the NFL require owners to interview at least one candidate over the age of 50?

And how about the fact that there are no female head coaches in the NFL? Should the NFL require owners to interview at least one female candidate for head coaching positions?

I understand that this may seem a bit absurd, but I use these examples to point out that the fundamental logic behind the Rooney Rule may not be as sound as it appears on its surface.

I think that because of past history, it was a logical step to introduce a rule like the Rooney Rule. I understand that nobody likes to have something forced on them but a simple review of the History of the NFL from 2000 back overwhelmingly supports the reasoning behind the rule.

I understand what your saying. Where does it end? I just think that the question of, "When will it begin?" is a much more important one at this time.

 

[sacase]

Bill Cosby put it right in their faces and they jumped him. As regards the rooney rule, I well remember that Jackson and the rest of his posse were making a move towards making trouble and the NFL did the rule to head him off. Look at Jacksons record for extorting companies by threatening to boycot them- its hard to find since most of the media protect him.
As regards the rap culture- I have to laugh at the many millionaire's remark. How many- maybe 100 at most. And how many youths take what they say as gospel and get in trouble? And trying to blame everyone else for their problems is the typical response from the professional victims. The Irish and other groups had it pretty bad in this country- and they pulled themselves out of it. Up through the 60's and early 70's the black people were slowly but steadily pulling themselves out of it- what has happened since then? Welfare followed by rap and the rest of the so called Black culture. And what good has it done? ALways blame someone else instead of looking in the mirror- look at the so called black leadership and you can see the problems right there.

I am about to put you on blast with your *ahem* agenda.

Hmm I thought extortion was against the law. Like Jesse Jackson has enough clout to prevent him from being thrown in jail. lol Hell, if Jesse Jackson told me to stop drinking coke because they wouldn't do what he said I would still drink coke. You give JJ and Al Sharpton far to much credit for what they do.

Last time I looked 100 was more than one hence the word many. I would actually put the number far higher than 100 when you consider all of the rappers/managers/producers/CEO's out there.

You really are clueless about inner city life. These youths as you put it don't take their cue from the music the music follows them. This is stuff they live and breathe everyday some of that stuff is real life for them. Trust me, the guys standing on the corner influence music more than music influences them. They happen to identify with it because it is about their life.

Comparing the Irish trouble to black troubles is laughable at best and shows your complete denial of the situation. Irish were not in slavery for 400 years. Their CULTURE was not DESTROYED. The irish didn't lack the educational oppertunities that blacks did. The irish didn't get turned on the street with NOTHING! At least the irish had rights!

You know it is amazing how you want to exlcude the past. The past is what got us here. While I take responsibility for my actions and I teach my son the same thing, you have to remember what got us here in the first place. In 100 we have come from nothin to being able to compete and in many cases surpass people.

I have something for you, it is called a clue, you really need it. If you want to know what happend in the 70's and what destroyed the black family.....drugs. Not welfare. Hell there are more whites on welfare than there are blacks....opps I guess that blows out your theory that welfare has hurt blacks.'

The onbly point I can agree with you on is that there is no black leadership right now. No one that I would really respect.

Overall I find it very interesting that you feel the need to deny history of what has really happend. A man who ignores history is truly a foolish man indeed. Many of the things that are going on now we caused by events that happend 100 years ago or more.

 

[superpunk]

You know it's the offseason when cowboyszone gets racist.

 

[Undisputed]

You know it's the offseason when cowboyszone gets racist.

I believe it is one of the 5 stages of "Getting your *** sent home from the first round of the playoffs".

1. Uncontrollable weeping
2. Illogical Pessimism
3. Illogical Optimism
4. Racist Rants
5. suprbowl n 07'-08' babey!!11

 

[5Stars]

You know it's the offseason when cowboyszone gets racist.

Yep...quite boring if you ask me! It's the same discussion over and over and over and over...all the time!

Noone is going to change the others mind...and I doubt it ever ends because of that...