Hernandez v Brent

[CowboyStar88]

Well I didn't post this thread because I'm a troll. I'm a die hard Cowboys fan who is concerned with the image of the franchise. Yes, it was an accident and wasn't intentional. But having him on the roster sends the wrong message period. The Cowboys can provide help to him but he doesn't deserve to be on this team because the mother of the deceased has forgiven Brent.

Yes the Hernandez case is different but someone is dead because of the actions of these players. The Pats cut ties due to financial reasons and they knew he wasn't playing anytime soon. They tried to save face and look like they did something good. The bottom line is that the took a gamble on him when they drafted him and they lost.

I don't see why we are keeping Brent? He too will be suspended. He is a mediocre role player and quite frankly isn't worth having him on the roster as it sheds a negative light on the organization.

[/quote]

Not sure what message it sends. Maybe they are respecting the wishes of Jerry's mother and standing by josh not sure how that's bad I would think that is a classy move on the Cowboys part that they are respecting the families wishes. He isn't on the active roster. Maybe they are providing counseling and other things to help him. We have no idea if the guy is suicidal

 

[1LoyalCowboyFan]

At first I thought Hernandez was covering for a friend but now it is becoming more apparent that he was more involved. There were multiple shots fired according to witnesses. I am very curious to see what the motive was for murder.

 

[CashMan]

Ok Ill ask you the same thing I asked Cashman. Do you view people who text and drive the same as you view drunk drivers?
Texting and driving kills more people than drunk drivers and it takes intent to do it the same as driving drunk. By your philosophy I can drive out of my driveway and within a mile see ten or more potential cold blooded killers.
If god forbid one of those people cause a fatal accident I'm pretty confident the driver will not be viewed as a killer but as someone who was careless and made a bad decision just like Josh Brent and Jerry Brown did when they got into the vehicle.

I think there are a few things here to discuss. First, this is like saying it is safer to fly than to drive, and this is true, but there are more cars on the road than planes in the air. And those planes are given directions as to where to be from an air traffic controller, as well as auto pilot as well as the pilot. Second, I would assume, more drinking and driving occurs in the wee hours of the night/morning, which would lead to less traffic, and third, what is the age bracket of the people texting and driving?
I would say, if you text and drive, it is as bad and should have some sort of penalty as drinking and driving, and some cities like Chicago have laws against this and being on the phone while driving. But, Cell phones and texting is fairly new vs drinking and driving, so laws against it, might be a tad on the back burner.

 

[cajuncocoa]

Well I didn't post this thread because I'm a troll. I'm a die hard Cowboys fan who is concerned with the image of the franchise.

My comment about trolling wasn't meant for you specifically...it was a general statement, and I stand by it.

As for the image of the franchise, it is what it is ...positive and proud for some, negative and loathsome for others (Commanders, Giants, and Eagle fans, you know who you are) Brent's release isn't going to do much to change that.

 

[burmafrd]

Frankly they should have cut both Brent and Rat. Brent for obvious reasons and Rat because just weeks after he goes out and does the same thing- DUI. If for no other reason then to make clear that stupidity has a steep price and put the rest of the team on warning

 

[Idgit]

At first I thought Hernandez was covering for a friend but now it is becoming more apparent that he was more involved. There were multiple shots fired according to witnesses. I am very curious to see what the motive was for murder.

Rumor was the victim was abusive, and dating Hernandez' girlfriend's sister. Have no idea if that ended up being true, or not.

 

[Idgit]

Frankly they should have cut both Brent and Rat. Brent for obvious reasons and Rat because just weeks after he goes out and does the same thing- DUI. If for no other reason then to make clear that stupidity has a steep price and put the rest of the team on warning

I'd have disliked both of those moves. Those players are too good to cut for episodes of bad judgement. You can't build a team by lopping off limbs over infractions you can work with.
In Brent's case, the consequences of his actions were enormous. But the error in judgement that led to them is probably something nearly every player on the team has probably been guilty of at some point.

 

[CyberB0b]

 

[Idgit]

For a little league-wide perspective, here's the list of the 27 NFL players arrested this offseason, and their respective transgressions.

http://www.businessinsider.com/nfl-players-arrested-2013-super-bowl-2013-6

Along with the Brown's Desmond Bryant's amazing mug shot for those of you who don't want to click the link.

 

[GimmeTheBall!]

A good woman would have drove you for some more shine.

 

[SportsGuru80]

Both ruined their lives, it's truly sad!

 

[TwoDeep3]

Ok Ill ask you the same thing I asked Cashman. Do you view people who text and drive the same as you view drunk drivers?
Texting and driving kills more people than drunk drivers and it takes intent to do it the same as driving drunk. By your philosophy I can drive out of my driveway and within a mile see ten or more potential cold blooded killers.
If god forbid one of those people cause a fatal accident I'm pretty confident the driver will not be viewed as a killer but as someone who was careless and made a bad decision just like Josh Brent and Jerry Brown did when they got into the vehicle.

Absolutely. Anything that impairs a driver from watching the road or being in a state of mind to operate the vehicle in a safe manner tends to push me toward writing a law and enforcing it.

We all have a time in this life and it suddenly ending abruptly because of the poor decision of someone else should NEVER happen.

What I find amazing is people defending Brent because he is a Cowboy.

 

[TwoDeep3]

First of all I'm not absolving Brent of what he did. I'm clearly stating that as the poster I quoted would have been fine had he had just been in an accident with alcohol in his system. Well I am pointing out that he was in an accident but that accident took the life of his best friend. There is no different you drive with alcohol in your system it's a stupid decision. I've done it. Dumb decision at the time I thought nothing of it. But there is not a chance that Brent said you know I'm gonna get in my truck and kill my friend. Hernandez said screw it can't trust anyone anymore so he killed him big difference. That was my point sorry you missed it. TD3

I got your point.

My belief is Brent did the same as taking a gun and shooting someone.

The idea that sometimes you get away with it - opr missing the guy you were shooting at - has no bearing.

Vehicular manslaughter is the term. You (royal you) used a vehicle to slaughter another human.

I didn't mean to kill you. Wasn't my intent.

Tough, you did kill regardless of your intent and you should do time.

You're a big boy now and you have responsibilities to society.

 

[links18]

A couple of things:

First, I have no idea what actually happened with Hernandez, but if he conspired with others to kill this guy, he is a guilty of murder as if he pulled the trigger.

Second, in regards to Brent, isn't the entire effect of alcohol that it impairs your judgement, gives you a false sense of confidence and generally moves you to do things you wouldn't otherwise do when you are sober? This is not an excuse, but society sends the message that in order to have fun and let loose as a man you need to down some beers and then it turns around and holds us personally responsible when, "keeping it real goes wrong." Once again, not an excuse, but being an irresponsible drinker is a far cry from willfully and intentionally murdering someone. Too often, we punish results in this country rather than intentions: drive drunk--you might get probation, but crash the car and some one gets killed or seriously hurt and your life is over. Basically, we are punishing bad luck.

It\f is was really all about protecting life, we'd have mandatory jail sentences for anyone who exceeds the speed limit by more than 15 miles an hour.

 

[TwoDeep3]

A couple of things:

First, I have no idea what actually happened with Hernandez, but if he conspired with others to kill this guy, he is a guilty of murder as if he pulled the trigger.

Second, in regards to Brent, isn't the entire effect of alcohol that it impairs your judgement, gives you a false sense of confidence and generally moves you to do things you wouldn't otherwise do when you are sober? This is not an excuse, but society sends the message that in order to have fun and let loose as a man you need to down some beers and then it turns around and holds us personally responsible when, "keeping it real goes wrong." Once again, not an excuse, but being an irresponsible drinker is a far cry from willfully and intentionally murdering someone. Too often, we punish results in this country rather than intentions: drive drunk--you might get probation, but crash the car and some one gets killed or seriously hurt and your life is over. Basically, we are punishing bad luck.

It\f is was really all about protecting life, we'd have mandatory jail sentences for anyone who exceeds the speed limit by more than 15 miles an hour.

It is this type of thinking that abets celebrity and causes them to believe they are entitled to different treatment.

My opinion, and mine only is someone dies because of your behavior, then it should be an automatic jail term, regardless of your stature in the community.

 

[Idgit]

It is this type of thinking that abets celebrity and causes them to believe they are entitled to different treatment.

My opinion, and mine only is someone dies because of your behavior, then it should be an automatic jail term, regardless of your stature in the community.

The issue with Brent has nothing to do with his status as a backup DL on the Dallas Cowboys. It'd be the same issue if he were a regular Joe off the street. His mistake was a huge one, but it didn't have anything (or much, at least) to do with celebrity. The same thing happens to thousands of people every year. They all get similar sentences, and then they all have to go on with their careers after they put their lives back together.

 

[daschoo]

Second, in regards to Brent, isn't the entire effect of alcohol that it impairs your judgement, gives you a false sense of confidence and generally moves you to do things you wouldn't otherwise do when you are sober? This is not an excuse, but society sends the message that in order to have fun and let loose as a man you need to down some beers and then it turns around and holds us personally responsible when, "keeping it real goes wrong." Once again, not an excuse, but being an irresponsible drinker is a far cry from willfully and intentionally murdering someone. Too often, we punish results in this country rather than intentions: drive drunk--you might get probation, but crash the car and some one gets killed or seriously hurt and your life is over. Basically, we are punishing bad luck.

How did his car end up at the club? If he wasn't intending to drink drive then surely he'd have left the car at home so by taking it in the first place in my mind it's a decision he's likely made when sober. I know when I'm going for a night out I get a taxi to and from town because I know that having my car outside the bar/club with my keys in my pocket is putting myself in a situation where alcohol could lead to a bad choice.
I never got my licence until my late twenties (lived in city so never needed to drive) so I maybe avoided the most likely years to have done so but I have never driven drunk and really don't understand the "it could have happened to anyone of us" attitude that some - not necessarily you - seem to have
Also where do you draw the line with alcohol clouding your decisions being bad luck? If Hernandez had been drinking would that be bad luck?

 

[Idgit]

How did his car end up at the club? If he wasn't intending to drink drive then surely he'd have left the car at home so by taking it in the first place in my mind it's a decision he's likely made when sober. I know when I'm going for a night out I get a taxi to and from town because I know that having my car outside the bar/club with my keys in my pocket is putting myself in a situation where alcohol could lead to a bad choice.
I never got my licence until my late twenties (lived in city so never needed to drive) so I maybe avoided the most likely years to have done so but I have never driven drunk and really don't understand the "it could have happened to anyone of us" attitude that some - not necessarily you - seem to have
Also where do you draw the line with alcohol clouding your decisions being bad luck? If Hernandez had been drinking would that be bad luck?

Jerry Brown was below the legal limit. It's quite possible the intention was for him to even be the designated driver, and that, once inebriated, Brent thought he was ok to drive, and he wasn't. It's also possible Brent went to the bar only intending to have a drink or two over a few hours, and that, because he appears to have a substance abuse problem, he did not, in fact, end up doing that. There's really no way to say, but it's also not safe to assume he went to the bar intending to get liquored up and to drive his sober friend home.

My own experience with drinking and driving might not be the best example, because there has been a prolonged and effective campaign against it for many years now, but it was very common at one point for teenagers and college kids to drink and drive. Especially for kids growing up in rural areas. Even by today's standards, people have more drinks than they should and still consider themselves ok to drive when they're probably not. There are still ~10k drinking and driving related deaths a year in the US---about a third of all traffic fatalities according to a quick wiki search. And that's fatalities, not accidents in general. If the ratios hold up, there'd be something like 1.8M drinking related accidents per year in the US. Somebody's drinking and driving.

As for judgement, it's commonly understood that one of the dangers of alcohol is that it impairs judgement, and one of the most common impairments affects your ability to know when you've had too much to drive. I'm not sure exactly where the line gets drawn regarding this effect, but I think we can all agree that it's sometime before shooting another person in the head execution style.

None of this is to say that drinking and driving is ok. Or that what Josh and Jerry did didn't, or shouldn't, have harsh consequences. It's only to say that substance abuse treatment and serving whatever the state determines is an appropriate sentence might be sufficient to salvage Josh Brent's career and, in turn, help provide for Jerry Brown's family. It's really not the place of the NFL to be handing out retributive punishments. It's their place to protect the league and the players. If Josh Brent can be rehabilitated without damaging either of those things, he'll get his chance to play again in the NFL.

 

[daschoo]

Jerry Brown was below the legal limit. It's quite possible the intention was for him to even be the designated driver, and that, once inebriated, Brent thought he was ok to drive, and he wasn't. It's also possible Brent went to the bar only intending to have a drink or two over a few hours, and that, because he appears to have a substance abuse problem, he did not, in fact, end up doing that. There's really no way to say, but it's also not safe to assume he went to the bar intending to get liquored up and to drive his sober friend home.

My own experience with drinking and driving might not be the best example, because there has been a prolonged and effective campaign against it for many years now, but it was very common at one point for teenagers and college kids to drink and drive. Especially for kids growing up in rural areas. Even by today's standards, people have more drinks than they should and still consider themselves ok to drive when they're probably not. There are still ~10k drinking and driving related deaths a year in the US---about a third of all traffic fatalities according to a quick wiki search. And that's fatalities, not accidents in general. If the ratios hold up, there'd be something like 1.8M drinking related accidents per year in the US. Somebody's drinking and driving.

As for judgement, it's commonly understood that one of the dangers of alcohol is that it impairs judgement, and one of the most common impairments affects your ability to know when you've had too much to drive. I'm not sure exactly where the line gets drawn regarding this effect, but I think we can all agree that it's sometime before shooting another person in the head execution style.

None of this is to say that drinking and driving is ok. Or that what Josh and Jerry did didn't, or shouldn't, have harsh consequences. It's only to say that substance abuse treatment and serving whatever the state determines is an appropriate sentence might be sufficient to salvage Josh Brent's career and, in turn, help provide for Jerry Brown's family. It's really not the place of the NFL to be handing out retributive punishments. It's their place to protect the league and the players. If Josh Brent can be rehabilitated without damaging either of those things, he'll get his chance to play again in the NFL.

Regarding the possibility of the plan being for Brown to drive that's a fair comment, over here car insurance is for the driver - ie I'm insured to drive my car and my partners car, any other car I would be driving without insurance - so I had forgotten that you insure the car. That scenario had therefore not occurred to me. The second one of him not intending to drink as much as he did I still think is completely irrelevant, particularly if he does as you suggest have a problem with his drinking. In that case he should be aware that drinking is liable to cloud his judgement and remove the temptation of driving, if I and thousands of others can make alternative arrangements I'm sure someone with his money can.
Just because something used to be very common and still happens doesn't make it acceptable. If anything it suggests harsher penalties may be required as people seem to still be willing to act in such a fashion.
The comment about if Hernandez was drinking was meant to highlight the stupidity (at least in my opinion) of the argument that causing a death through drink driving was down to nothing more than bad luck not a serious suggestion that a drunk guy shooting and killing someone should be treated leniently. Apologies if that was unclear.
Your last paragraph I more or less agree with.

 

[Keifer]

Absolutely. Anything that impairs a driver from watching the road or being in a state of mind to operate the vehicle in a safe manner tends to push me toward writing a law and enforcing it.

We all have a time in this life and it suddenly ending abruptly because of the poor decision of someone else should NEVER happen.

What I find amazing is people defending Brent because he is a Cowboy.

I'm not really trying to defend Brent, I'm just saying that comparing what he did to what Hernandez did is crazy. Personally I think Brent is an idiot and I really wouldn't lose any sleep if we did cut him. Everybody makes mistakes and he made a big one but failing the UA's while waiting for trial tells me that he either is not taking all this too seriously or hes just too stupid to realize how much trouble he could be in.