Hey Theebs: Maybe this is a clue.

[dcfanatic]

Haha, right!

Hey did Bennett stop doing twitter? Couldn’t find him.

He probably blocked you.

KungFuAstronaut

@tchoice23 jus rode his bike about 10 miles to my crib lol. Dudes a beast said he working on his legs. **** Ima start riding with him tomm
about 3 hours ago via Echofon

 

[AbeBeta]

Yes, pointing out that Barber only played 26% of snaps on obvious passing downs is a red herring.

Took a look at the Week 13 Giants game, Barber was in on only 1 of 11 obvious passing downs (Choice had 8 plays and Felix had 3, one of which was while Barber was also on the field). This may not be a pattern to you, but I don't know what else you'd call it. In the Raiders game the split was Choice=8, Barber=3, and Felix=2, out of the 13 obvious passing downs.

So this trend isn't just in the final 3 games. In 5 of the last 6 games (excluding the Chargers game, which I haven't looked at), Barber only had 14 plays out of the 62 obvious passing downs.* That's a mere 22.6% of obvious passing downs. Seems to me if you favored one player over another due to his pass-blocking ability, you'd actually play him more during obvious passing downs.


*Note I'm only looking at obvious passing downs that included a RB in the package. If there was an empty backfield, I didn't count the play.

First, tell us what an "obvious" passing down is - I don't see it in any of your posts. Note that an obvious passing down is not necessarily one where a back is involved in the blocking.

Second, what you are still not considering are the plays where a back stay in to block. When a back stays in to pass protect, it remains clear that Barber is the option. Going back to the Giants game through the Playoffs, on plays where a back stayed back to block, Barber blocked on 28 of 52 of those. That's 54% of pass blocking assignments going to Barber. Of course, that is something that speaks directly to my argument which if you recall was who we want in there to pass block.

Third, comparing these games to say the first 5 MBIII played tells us a lot about whether he was used differently. In those games he was the pass blocker on 33 of 66 plays where the back blocked. That's 50%.

 

[theogt]

First, tell us what an "obvious" passing down is - I don't see it in any of your posts. Note that an obvious passing down is not necessarily one where a back is involved in the blocking.

An obvious passing down is either (1) 2nd and 15+ or (2) 3rd and 5+.

Second, what you are still not considering are the plays where a back stay in to block. When a back stays in to pass protect, it remains clear that Barber is the option. Going back to the Giants game through the Playoffs, on plays where a back stayed back to block, Barber blocked on 28 of 52 of those. That's 54% of pass blocking assignments going to Barber. Of course, that is something that speaks directly to my argument which if you recall was who we want in there to pass block.

Third, comparing these games to say the first 5 MBIII played tells us a lot about whether he was used differently. In those games he was the pass blocker on 33 of 66 plays where the back blocked. That's 50%.

Whether he had a higher total number of pass-blocks is wholly irrelevant (though total pass-blocks actually proves my point, as you'll see later). That's a function of him getting a larger number of plays altogether. The question is how much each player pass-blocked in relationship to their opportunities and situations. Clearly Choice pass-blocked more in terms of his number of opportunities and in terms of "passing situations."

Honestly, there's nothing really indicating that Barber was used more because of his pass-blocking ability. It's shocking that despite Barber having literally twice as many offensive snaps as Choice (552 vs. 281) he only had 12 more plays in which he pass-blocked. Barber had 96% more snaps, but only 16% more pass-blocks.

That last portion pretty much ends the discussion. (Also, note that I use only regular season statistics.)

 

[AbeBeta]

Whether he had a higher total number of pass-blocks is wholly irrelevant (though total pass-blocks actually proves my point, as you'll see later). That's a function of him getting a larger number of plays altogether. The question is how much each player pass-blocked in relationship to their opportunities and situations. Clearly Choice pass-blocked more in terms of his number of opportunities and in terms of "passing situations."

Honestly, there's nothing really indicating that Barber was used more because of his pass-blocking ability. It's shocking that despite Barber having literally twice as many offensive snaps as Choice (552 vs. 281) he only had 12 more plays in which he pass-blocked. Barber had 96% more snaps, but only 16% more pass-blocks.

That last portion pretty much ends the discussion. (Also, note that I use only regular season statistics.)

Again, you continue to ignore the situations lead to the statistics. Choice had 70% of his pass blocks over the course of six games. One was the game that Barber missed against the Panthers (7 PB). The next was the Giant game where Choice had the majority of the snaps (7 PB) b/c Barber was not 100%. The next was the Chiefs game where Choice had 9 ... but Barber had 12. Next was against Seattle where an early lead both limited Barber's snaps and led us to go "max protect" for a good portion of the game. Choice was the lead pass blocking back in GB ... and that was where he put up his biggest #s (15). So impressed was the coaching staff that they didn't use him much for PB again until NO and only then b/c Barber had a ton of touches.

What seems clear is that when he's healthy and not overworked, we like Barber in pass protect. When he's had a ton of work or isn't 100%, we go with his backup.

 

[theogt]

Again, you continue to ignore the situations lead to the statistics. Choice had 70% of his pass blocks over the course of six games. One was the game that Barber missed against the Panthers (7 PB). The next was the Giant game where Choice had the majority of the snaps (7 PB) b/c Barber was not 100%. The next was the Chiefs game where Choice had 9 ... but Barber had 12. Next was against Seattle where an early lead both limited Barber's snaps and led us to go "max protect" for a good portion of the game. Choice was the lead pass blocking back in GB ... and that was where he put up his biggest #s (15). So impressed was the coaching staff that they didn't use him much for PB again until NO and only then b/c Barber had a ton of touches.

What seems clear is that when he's healthy and not overworked, we like Barber in pass protect. When he's had a ton of work or isn't 100%, we go with his backup.

Boy, that's one helluva qualifier to the original statement that it's clear Barber gets more carries because he's the better pass-blocker. Not cherry-picking at all, of course.

Half the snaps, yet essentially the same amount of pass-blocking plays. That says enough for me.

 

[jterrell]

Again, you continue to ignore the situations lead to the statistics. Choice had 70% of his pass blocks over the course of six games. One was the game that Barber missed against the Panthers (7 PB). The next was the Giant game where Choice had the majority of the snaps (7 PB) b/c Barber was not 100%. The next was the Chiefs game where Choice had 9 ... but Barber had 12. Next was against Seattle where an early lead both limited Barber's snaps and led us to go "max protect" for a good portion of the game. Choice was the lead pass blocking back in GB ... and that was where he put up his biggest #s (15). So impressed was the coaching staff that they didn't use him much for PB again until NO and only then b/c Barber had a ton of touches.

What seems clear is that when he's healthy and not overworked, we like Barber in pass protect. When he's had a ton of work or isn't 100%, we go with his backup.

The Cowboys moved Choice into the 3rd down back role because they wanted to find a way to get him involved.

Barber, when healthy, is the best blocker of the trio but last year Felix was far better as Barber didn't have any leg drive and also didn't move all that quickly to get to pass rushers.

Choice isn't a bad blocker but he is the least effective of the 3 guys though not necessarily last year versus an injured Barber.

2009 PFF metrics indicate Felix was our best blocker, followed by Choice than Barber. And they are completely unbiased. In 2008 Barber was a very solid blocker while Tashard Choice had awful metrics. It's clear Choice is getting better as a blocker.

 

[casmith07]

He probably blocked you.

KungFuAstronaut

@tchoice23 jus rode his bike about 10 miles to my crib lol. Dudes a beast said he working on his legs. **** Ima start riding with him tomm
about 3 hours ago via Echofon

His tweets are protected.

 

[AbeBeta]

Boy, that's one helluva qualifier to the original statement that it's clear Barber gets more carries because he's the better pass-blocker. Not cherry-picking at all, of course.

Actually, my original statement was about snaps. I said nothing about carries. I talked about protecting Romo rather than Barber getting snaps b/c of his contract. Never said anything about why he gets more carries.

Half the snaps, yet essentially the same amount of pass-blocking plays. That says enough for me.

If you cling to summary statistics, as you are doing, you completely defeat the purpose of looking at trends. That's like saying "this stock does well" without understanding the conditions where it tends to do well and where it does not.

The fact remains that Choice got a large # of those pass blocking opportunities when one or both of the other backs were injured. If you simply look at the four games where Barber and/or Jones were injured, you account for 36% of Choice's pass blocking attempts. Same pattern with Jones' PB. 25% of his attempts came in the 2 games MBIII was hurt (note that was only TWO games). Same pattern with Anderson ... in the four games Barber and Jones were hurt, he picked up 47% of his pass blocks. See any trend there?

A huge chunk of Choice's (and everyone else's) work on the pass block comes from injury, not from being better than Barber at pass blocking.

 

[AbeBeta]

2009 PFF metrics indicate Felix was our best blocker, followed by Choice than Barber. And they are completely unbiased. In 2008 Barber was a very solid blocker while Tashard Choice had awful metrics. It's clear Choice is getting better as a blocker.

That's all nice and good. But clearly not what the coaching staff is seeing. PFF metrics have been hammered over and over again on this site by many posters.

And if you insist on looking at PFF. Their PB stats ranking Jones at 0.1, Barber at 0.0, and Choice at -1.1. Choice is far worse by their ranking.

I don't really buy that ranking b/c it is penalizing Choice for a terrible game in GB where honestly the entire team was out of whack and it appears that Barber got benched. But still, if you are going to use the rankings...

 

[theogt]

Actually, my original statement was about snaps. I said nothing about carries. I talked about protecting Romo rather than Barber getting snaps b/c of his contract. Never said anything about why he gets more carries.

Apologies for misusing the term "carries" in place of "snaps."

If you cling to summary statistics, as you are doing, you completely defeat the purpose of looking at trends. That's like saying "this stock does well" without understanding the conditions where it tends to do well and where it does not.

The fact remains that Choice got a large # of those pass blocking opportunities when one or both of the other backs were injured. If you simply look at the four games where Barber and/or Jones were injured, you account for 36% of Choice's pass blocking attempts. Same pattern with Jones' PB. 25% of his attempts came in the 2 games MBIII was hurt (note that was only TWO games). Same pattern with Anderson ... in the four games Barber and Jones were hurt, he picked up 47% of his pass blocks. See any trend there?

A huge chunk of Choice's (and everyone else's) work on the pass block comes from injury, not from being better than Barber at pass blocking.

Barber only missed week 3 and Jones only missed weeks 4 and 5. So let's look at the stats excluding those games:

Barber:
Total Snaps - 515 (as a % of total RB snaps: 44%)
Pass Blocks - 81 (as a % of his snaps: 15%; as a % of all RB pass-blocks: 7.9%)

Choice:
Total Snaps - 198 (as a % of total RB snaps: 19.3%)
Pass Blocks - 62 (as a % of his snaps: 31%; as a % of all RB pass-blocks: 33.7%)

Felix:
Total Snaps - 316 (as a % of total RB snaps: 30.8%)
Pass Blocks - 41 (as a % of his snaps: 13.0%; as a % of all RB pass-blocks: 22.3%)

What these numbers show is that (1) Choice pass-blocked at a higher rate than Barber in terms of his own snaps, and (2) Choice represented an abnormally high percentage of pass-blocking plays in comparison to his total number of snaps. On top of these statistics, there are the statistics that show that Choice was the clear cut choice in substitution packages on obvious passing downs.

I'm not sure how we get to the fact that Barber had more snaps because he was a better pass-blocker based on these statistics.

 

[AbeBeta]

Barber:
Total Snaps - 515 (as a % of total RB snaps: 44%)
Pass Blocks - 81 (as a % of his snaps: 15%; as a % of all RB pass-blocks: 7.9%)

Choice:
Total Snaps - 198 (as a % of total RB snaps: 19.3%)
Pass Blocks - 62 (as a % of his snaps: 31%; as a % of all RB pass-blocks: 33.7%)

Felix:
Total Snaps - 316 (as a % of total RB snaps: 30.8%)
Pass Blocks - 41 (as a % of his snaps: 13.0%; as a % of all RB pass-blocks: 22.3%)

Barber's % of all RB Pass Blocks is 44.0%, not 7.9%

What these numbers show is that (1) Choice pass-blocked at a higher rate than Barber in terms of his own snaps, and

Of course he did. Barber was the starting RB, he played far more 1st and 10 situations. I'd venture a guess that if you looked at 1st and 10, Barber would have a majority of those snaps. So it makes sense that the rates are lower for Barber vs. Choice.

The question is why is Barber on the field SO much. The answer is that a) he is the starting RB and b) that he takes the largest chunk of the pass blocking assignments.

(2) Choice represented an abnormally high percentage of pass-blocking plays in comparison to his total number of snaps. On top of these statistics, there are the statistics that show that Choice was the clear cut choice in substitution packages on obvious passing downs.

Choice plays in a couple of passing down packages. That's about getting Barber a rest. Choice played in very few 1st down situations when the others were healthy. So his %s are naturally higher. Comparing the % of pass blocking assignments out of their total snaps isn't relevant as Barber's role as the starting RB skews that statistic. Comparing the % of Pass Blocks out of the total for the 3 HBs is a better comparison.

I'm not sure how we get to the fact that Barber had more snaps because he was a better pass-blocker based on these statistics.

Barber has as many snaps as he does b/c he is the starter and b/c he gets the largest # of pass blocking assignments. Isn't that clear from your data showing he had 44% of the pass blocks?

 

[theogt]

Barber's % of all RB Pass Blocks is 44.0%, not 7.9%

Correct. I typed the wrong % from the excel sheet. The 7.9% is his number of pass-blocks as a % of total RB snaps. There was another mistake as well, so I'm going to restate the statistics below.

Of course he did. Barber was the starting RB, he played far more 1st and 10 situations. I'd venture a guess that if you looked at 1st and 10, Barber would have a majority of those snaps. So it makes sense that the rates are lower for Barber vs. Choice.

What these indicate is how each player is used when they are used. Choice is used far more often as a pass-blocker when he is used than Barber. This is circumstantial evidence of how each player is viewed by the staff. You may think it's only coincidental that Choice has a higher % than Barber, who has a higher % than Felix, but I do not. Or you may assign any number of varying other excuses as to why Choice is used more often than Barber as a pass-blocker, but I fail to see you presenting any evidence whatsoever that the staff views Barber as the better pass-blocker and consequently receiver more snaps.

The question is why is Barber on the field SO much. The answer is that a) he is the starting RB and b) that he takes the largest chunk of the pass blocking assignments.

Your answer "a)" is circular and your answer "b)" not true if you view it as relative to how much each player is used. Choice pass-blocks almost as much as Barber despite having less than half of his snaps. This creates a very clear pattern, in addition to the pattern shown by how each player is substituted (i.e., Choice is substituted on passing downs).

Choice plays in a couple of passing down packages. That's about getting Barber a rest. Choice played in very few 1st down situations when the others were healthy. So his %s are naturally higher. Comparing the % of pass blocking assignments out of their total snaps isn't relevant as Barber's role as the starting RB skews that statistic.

Choice doesn't play in "a couple passing down packages." He plays almost exclusively in the passing down situations, particularly if you look only at 3rd down passing situations.

Comparing the % of Pass Blocks out of the total for the 3 HBs is a better comparison.

I did compare the % of pass blocks out of the total for the 3 backs. And this comparison showed that Choice had an abnormally high % of pass-blocks as compared to the other backs.

Barber has as many snaps as he does b/c he is the starter

Again, this is circular and does nothing to further your original statement.

and b/c he gets the largest # of pass blocking assignments. Isn't that clear from your data showing he had 44% of the pass blocks?

Barber gets a disproportionately low # of pass-blocking assignments. If his pass-blocking assignments were in line with the number of snaps he receives, he would have had 12% more pass-blocks. And if Choice would have had a proportionate number of pass-blocks, he would have had 43% fewer pass-blocks.

So, the reality is that Barber gets fewer snaps than he otherwise would because he is taken out on passing situations and Choice gets more snaps that he otherwise would because he is substitute for Barber on passing situations. If you can't see that, I don't know what else to tell you.

 

[theogt]

Restated accordingly:

Barber:
Total Snaps - 515 (as a % of total RB snaps: 50.1%)
Pass Blocks - 81 (as a % of his snaps: 15%; as a % of all RB pass-blocks: 44.0%)

Choice:
Total Snaps - 198 (as a % of total RB snaps: 19.3%)
Pass Blocks - 62 (as a % of his snaps: 31%; as a % of all RB pass-blocks: 33.7%)

Felix:
Total Snaps - 316 (as a % of total RB snaps: 30.8%)
Pass Blocks - 41 (as a % of his snaps: 13.0%; as a % of all RB pass-blocks: 22.3%)

So here's what we know:

1. Choice receivers more than 2/3 of the snaps on obvious passing downs.
2. Choice receives a disproportionate # of pass-blocks, relative to his % of snaps.
3. Choice, despite having half as many snaps as Barber, pass-blocks roughly the same amount as Barber.

Yet, somehow, it should be clear that Barber gets the most snaps because he is the best pass-blocker.

 

[percyhoward]

What each back was doing when he was in the game in 2009:
includes playoffs

Barber
carry 39%
route 37%
run block 7%
pass block 17%

Jones
carry 44%
route 34%
run block 9%
pass block 13%

Choice
carry 26%
route 40%
run block 8%
pass block 26%

 

[AbeBeta]

What these indicate is how each player is used when they are used. Choice is used far more often as a pass-blocker when he is used than Barber. This is circumstantial evidence of how each player is viewed by the staff. You may think it's only coincidental that Choice has a higher % than Barber, who has a higher % than Felix, but I do not. Or you may assign any number of varying other excuses as to why Choice is used more often than Barber as a pass-blocker, but I fail to see you presenting any evidence whatsoever that the staff views Barber as the better pass-blocker and consequently receiver more snaps.

First, Choice was not used more often as a pass blocker. When he was USED --- which was not commonly -- his primary role was as a pass blocker. If he were so good in those situations, I would expect that he'd take far more pass blocking snaps from MB. After all, MB is the guy that gets beat up.

Your answer "a)" is circular and your answer "b)" not true if you view it as relative to how much each player is used. Choice pass-blocks almost as much as Barber despite having less than half of his snaps. This creates a very clear pattern, in addition to the pattern shown by how each player is substituted (i.e., Choice is substituted on passing downs).

Again, your %s show that Barber takes the majority of the pass block snaps. He took, based on your #s, most of the pass block plays. Gee, I'd think the team viewed him as the 2nd best pass blocker, he'd get fewer snaps. Not more than everyone else

Note that we also substitute for Barber in running situations with Jones. Is that a "pattern" too?

Choice doesn't play in "a couple passing down packages." He plays almost exclusively in the passing down situations, particularly if you look only at 3rd downs.

Yes, Choice has a set of packages. We have two great runners so he's not going to play many running plays. Where else is Choice going to play? A better question is what is he going to do when Jones increasingly takes Barber's running snaps?

I did compare the % of pass blocks out of the total for the 3 backs. And this comparison showed that Choice had an abnormally high % of pass-blocks as compared to the other backs.

You will find that for any RB who plays mostly on 3rd down.

Barber gets a disproportionately low # of pass-blocking assignments. If his pass-blocking assignments were in line with the number of snaps he receives, he would have had 12% more pass-blocks. And if Choice would have had a proportionate number of pass-blocks, he would have had 43% fewer pass-blocks.

Barber had the largest percentage of the total pass block assignments. That's not an abnormally low number, especially when you consider that he is the starting RB. The starting RB is always going to have smaller pass block #s because he is out there consistently on 1st and 10 situations.

So, the reality is that Barber gets fewer snaps than he otherwise would because he is taken out on passing situations and Choice gets more snaps that he otherwise would because he is substitute for Barber on passing situations. If you can't see that, I don't know what else to tell you.

The reality is that the staff has made a concerted effort to limit Barber's snaps in the interest of keep him healthy. Jones gets some of the running play snaps. Choice gets some of the passing play snaps. The reason why Barber got so many snaps in the first place is because he is good in many areas of play.

Of course, if you REALLY want to know the story, look at our last game. In a game like that you learn who the coaches want out there and there is little regard for saving a guy to keep him healthy. Against Minnesota, do or die, we put MB out there for 23 plays. 13 of those plays were passes and he stayed in to block on 8 of them. Choice on the other hand got a scant 7 plays, most passing situations, and he blocked only twice. This despite Barber clearly being <100% due to his knee. Jones took most of the running snaps ... and Barber ends up with most of the pass blocking assignments. That tells you what you need to know about who the staff view as the best pass blocker

 

[theogt]

Restated accordingly:

Barber:
Total Snaps - 515 (as a % of total RB snaps: 50.1%)
Pass Blocks - 81 (as a % of his snaps: 15%; as a % of all RB pass-blocks: 44.0%)

Choice:
Total Snaps - 198 (as a % of total RB snaps: 19.3%)
Pass Blocks - 62 (as a % of his snaps: 31%; as a % of all RB pass-blocks: 33.7%)

Felix:
Total Snaps - 316 (as a % of total RB snaps: 30.8%)
Pass Blocks - 41 (as a % of his snaps: 13.0%; as a % of all RB pass-blocks: 22.3%)

So here's what we know:

1. Choice receivers more than 2/3 of the snaps on obvious passing downs.
2. Choice receives a disproportionate # of pass-blocks, relative to his % of snaps.
3. Choice, despite having half as many snaps as Barber, pass-blocks roughly the same amount as Barber.

Yet, somehow, it should be clear that Barber gets the most snaps because he is the best pass-blocker.

Enough with the line-by-line BS. The above is my position and I think it speaks for itself. I've yet to see a shred of evidence that Barber receives more snaps than Choice because of his pass-blocking ability.

 

[dropshot001]

Enough with the line-by-line BS. The above is my position and I think it speaks for itself. I've yet to see a shred of evidence that Barber receives more snaps than Choice because of his pass-blocking ability.

barber is a very solid blocker

 

[theogt]

barber is a very solid blocker

I'm not saying he isn't.

 

[AbeBeta]

Enough with the line-by-line BS. The above is my position and I think it speaks for itself. I've yet to see a shred of evidence that Barber receives more snaps than Choice because of his pass-blocking ability.

And I've yet to see a shred of evidence suggesting anything other than Choice plays 3rd downs because we are making a clear effort to try to limit Barber's snaps and keep him healthy.

The Minny game really says it all. A hobbled Barber keeps getting marched out to pass block. You might say "but we can't just put Choice out there in every pass blocking situation ... it would tip our hand" - Clear as day an injured and offensively ineffective Barber is on the field and doing a ton of pass blocking. You'd think if the staff had as much confidence in Choice as you suggest that this would have been the perfect time to put him in. But they didn't.

 

[theogt]

And I've yet to see a shred of evidence suggesting anything other than Choice plays 3rd downs because we are making a clear effort to try to limit Barber's snaps and keep him healthy.

The Minny game really says it all. A hobbled Barber keeps getting marched out to pass block. You might say "but we can't just put Choice out there in every pass blocking situation ... it would tip our hand" - Clear as day an injured and offensively ineffective Barber is on the field and doing a ton of pass blocking. You'd think if the staff had as much confidence in Choice as you suggest that this would have been the perfect time to put him in. But they didn't.

I'm fully aware that you have add ridiculous qualifiers to your statement and cherry pick statistics to even come close to an indication that Barber had more snaps because he was a better pass-blocker.