How long, is long enough?

[perrykemp]

So if we made a list of teams that hire and fire coaches and stayed bad or got worse, which list would be longer?

Super_Kazuya:

You are right, the list would be long.

Turok had asked for examples earlier in the thread of teams that had turned it around. All I did was gladly provided them - one example from each of the last three seasons -- there might be more but I didn't spend more than 5 seconds thinking about it -- ie examples were readily available.

I don't disagree that turning it around is REALLY hard.

 

[Dodger12]

What do you mean "accepting?"

Cowboys still ruin a lot of Sundays for me.

But you'd have to be a blind man to not see progress. But some are so simple they only see wins and losses. As if the NFL is a game of tic tac toe.

In a lot of ways I envy people like you. I mean a world of just black and white. How simple things must be!

I'm not sure of what progress you speak when the team is still around .500 year after year. At some point, it has to relate to wins and losses. And while we're on this journey, your franchise QB is a year older (which I agree with when you mentioned it earlier) and moving past his prime. When JG finally figures it out, he'll have to do so with a new QB as opposed to one that's broken every passing record in the history of a storied franchise.

 

[dupree89]

How long did it take Landry to win a playoff game? How could of a coach was he? It takes awhile to turn a team around when they have a large talent deficit.

It should take much, much less time today than it did when Landry started. I dont even see how you could draw that comparison. Dallas didnt even participate in the college draft their first year in the league. They chose 3 unprotected players from each NFL team. Bad comparison, your honor.

 

[jobberone]

I agree that isn't not really about the duration.

My general concern about JG is that I have yet to see any particularly distinguishing characteristics from him.

I <do> understand that every once in a while you have a Bill Belichek or even or a Pete Carroll that initially were not very good coaches and came back after being fired and were better coaches.

Even in those cases Jobberone, those guys had to take their lumps, were held accountable, had to go back and take a hard look at their performance -- what worked, what didn't, etc. They were fired and eventually were better coaches for it.

I'm curious, what in JG do you see at this stage of his career that makes you think he is ready to take the next step?

Again, as I've said in many posts over the years, I'm not happy with the current situation and I'm not certain Garrett is the guy to lead us to the promised land. I've gone from I'm not sure I like what I'm seeing to I'm on the fence to I'm starting to really like some of the things I see. What I'm seeing is a team that is tough and plays hard thru the whistle not ever giving up. That's character and comes from acquiring the right guys, getting rid of the wrong ones and leading with character which Garrett has in spades. I see us rising out of a huge talent deficit hole despite having cap problems. I see much better drafting. So some of the best things a coach can do is recognize talent, get it on the field, coach it properly and weed out the detrimental element. I definitely see the team heading in the right direction although you're not seeing it in the record yet. BTW, I've never forgotten how a guy took a 1-7 team and turned it into a 5-3 team that could've had even a better record and did it with a backup QB. Those guys didn't quit either and they had quit on Wade. Having the respect of your players is vital esp with a professional team.

You can throw the record out on this team this and last year. So you just can't look at that and properly evaluate Garrett and his staff.

I like the fact he ditched Ryan and went to Marinelli and Kiffin. The reasoning for that was just as he said, we weren't getting any turnovers. I like the toughness of the team, how hard they play, the swarming to the ball, playing thru the whistle, working for turnovers, the chemistry on the team, how well they've done with Dez and taking talent deficit teams (mostly due to injury the last two years) and still competed for a shot at the playoffs.

I'm sure there is more I'm leaving off but the team is on the upswing. I'd give him another two years before making any tough decisions.

 

[Dodger12]

How long did it take Landry to win a playoff game? How could of a coach was he? It takes awhile to turn a team around when they have a large talent deficit.

How in heck can we even make a comparison between a HC who took over an expansion team and no draft picks to a HC who took over a team with a franchise QB in a watered down NFL? You can't possibly be serious? And, by that criteria, you can make the argument and compare Campo to Landry as well but he just wasn't given enough time......wow....

 

[Dodger12]

It should take much, much less time today than it did when Landry started. I dont even see how you could draw that comparison. Dallas didnt even participate in the college draft their first year in the league. They chose 3 unprotected players from each NFL team. Bad comparison, your honor.

Horrible comparison.....because by that standard he can argue that Campo should have been given more time as well. How the hell do we even put JG's name in the same sentence as Landry's is beyond me.

 

[jobberone]

It should take much, much less time today than it did when Landry started. I dont even see how you could draw that comparison. Dallas didnt even participate in the college draft their first year in the league. They chose 3 unprotected players from each NFL team. Bad comparison, your honor.

No it's not. First the question was a simple 'how long does it take to win a playoff game'. There weren't any qualifiers. And the talent on the Cowboys early on wasn't worse than it was three years ago. I saw those teams with my own eyes. And Landry had five years to draft and win in 61-65. So the argument about the draft doesn't hold water even with the fact they missed out on the first year's draft. They had some pretty good players right away on that team although I'd agree not enough.

The point remains. Every coach that inherits a team has a different situation although most of them have a talent deficit. I can make a case that SF is not fair compared to Jason's situation easily. Look at the talent on that SF team compared to ours. World of difference although I'll grant you Romo is much better than any QB they've had. But then that only proves that the QB can't do it all my himself.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

I'm not sure of what progress you speak when the team is still around .500 year after year. At some point, it has to relate to wins and losses. And while we're on this journey, your franchise QB is a year older (which I agree with when you mentioned it earlier) and moving past his prime. When JG finally figures it out, he'll have to do so with a new QB as opposed to one that's broken every passing record in the history of a storied franchise.

I don't know how anyone could look at our roster 3 years ago...old, bad, old, overpaid and old....to one of the youngest in the league that has young promising talent everywhere (the one caveat being the defensive line...who were all basically at the 30 year mark...but were projected to be a terror for offensive lines).

It's night and day.

If you can't see that it's because you aren't looking hard enough.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

No it's not. First the question was a simple 'how long does it take to win a playoff game'. There weren't any qualifiers. And the talent on the Cowboys early on wasn't worse than it was three years ago. I saw those teams with my own eyes. And Landry had five years to draft and win in 61-65. So the argument about the draft doesn't hold water even with the fact they missed out on the first year's draft. They had some pretty good players right away on that team although I'd agree not enough.

The point remains. Every coach that inherits a team has a different situation although most of them have a talent deficit. I can make a case that SF is not fair compared to Jason's situation easily. Look at the talent on that SF team compared to ours. World of difference although I'll grant you Romo is much better than any QB they've had. But then that only proves that the QB can't do it all my himself.

Meanwhile has anyone seen their drafting history under Harbaugh? I'd be a bit worried if I were 49ers fans that the window may not be as big as they thought.

Oh and Seattle and SF get to spend lavishly everywhere since their QBs are on rookie deals. Wait till that changes.

 

[jobberone]

How in heck can we even make a comparison between a HC who took over an expansion team and no draft picks to a HC who took over a team with a franchise QB in a watered down NFL? You can't possibly be serious? And, by that criteria, you can make the argument and compare Campo to Landry as well but he just wasn't given enough time......wow....

Because Landry didn't win a playoff game until 66. He had plenty of time to build a team. Thru the draft although he got some pretty good players off other teams just not enough. How long did it take MN to win. Or Atlanta? So Landry must have been a pretty good coach. But he had people calling for his head. Instead Clint gave the guy a ten year contract to shut them all up. Now I'm not saying Garrett is a Landry. Not at all but only it takes time to build a team from a severe talent deficit.

So I didn't compare Landry to Garrett or even say the situation was the same. Only that it takes time to rebuild and not all situations are the same which is what you're saying right. Wow!!

 

[Corso]

Why would you laugh at me?

I'll be just as sad as you are after another wasted year of Romo's prime.

It's like some 'fans' would rather we underachieve so they can say "I told you so" rather than have us win and need to eat some crow.

It's really weird.

Yup. I dislike that also.

Calling fellow fans out, the constant moaning...

We know there are problems, but we're all fans of the same team here.

No need to go after each other.

 

[TTexasTT]

Yup. I dislike that also.

Calling fellow fans out, the constant moaning...

We know there are problems, but we're all fans of the same team here.

No need to go after each other.

 

[tecolote]

I just find it insane to have Garrett as the coach of a 2.1 billion dollar franchise, the Cowboys are the 5th most valuable sports team in the world and their coach is at best mediocre, at best. And the worst part is that there are options out there, Reid was available, so was Holmgren, Cowher, Chucky, Lovie Smith, heck, even Sean Payton was for a while last season. It's like having Christian Ponder as your QB when Tony Romo, Phillip Rivers and Matt Ryan are all free agents and looking for a job and getting one of them would not count against the cap.

Again, it's insane.

 

[jobberone]

Horrible comparison.....because by that standard he can argue that Campo should have been given more time as well. How the hell do we even put JG's name in the same sentence as Landry's is beyond me.

The point was time is not a consideration unless all the tools are there for a coach to succeed and he's not. No one is comparing Garrett to any other coach. You're the one jumping to a conclusion I didn't address so you can play the 'you must be an idiot' card. Give me a break! It's hard enough around here as it is.

 

[TTexasTT]

I just find it insane to have Garrett as the coach of a 2.1 billion dollar franchise, the Cowboys are the 5th most valuable sports team in the world and their coach is at best mediocre, at best. And the worst part is that there are options out there, Reid was available, so was Holmgren, Cowher, Chucky, Lovie Smith, heck, even Sean Payton was for a while last season. It's like having Christian Ponder as your QB when Tony Romo, Phillip Rivers and Matt Ryan are all free agents and looking for a job and getting one of them would not count against the cap.

Again, it's insane.

Holmgren?
Gruden?
Lovie?
Reid?
My lord... Have a look around some of the other teams sites. Those guys are hated as much if not more than JG.

BTW Payton was never available.

 

[OhSnap]

I wanted to get the boards opinions on how long and how many games coached does it take to determine
if you have the right headcoach for your team.
At the end of this season Garrett will have been HC for 3.5 seasons.

In your opinion is that enough time for Jerry to make a quality decision about Garrett ?

One School of thought is that we are improving and that it is a process, and it will take time for Garrett to get his type of players in.

The other School says that Garrett's a terrible clock manager and his offense is outdated.

Just curious how my fellow Cowboy fans feel ?

It's possible that he is a good enough coach now but don't have enough good players.[/quote]

 

[perrykemp]

Holmgren?
Gruden?
Lovie?
Reid?
My lord... Have a look around some of the other teams sites. Those guys are hated as much if not more than JG.

BTW Payton was never available.

Only folks who hate Reid are Philly fans. Most of them if they spoke honestly who probably admit they were just sick of the guy more than they hated him.

 

[Dodger12]

I don't know how anyone could look at our roster 3 years ago...old, bad, old, overpaid and old....to one of the youngest in the league that has young promising talent everywhere (the one caveat being the defensive line...who were all basically at the 30 year mark...but were projected to be a terror for offensive lines).

It's night and day.

If you can't see that it's because you aren't looking hard enough.

Three years ago the Cowboys had 9 players invited to the Pro-Bowl.which was the second most players in the NFL. I'm not saying it's the end all, cure all, as an indicator and we shouldn't always strive to improve, but this idea that JG inherited a team devoid of any talent and has had one of the toughest job in the NFL to restock a talentless team is lunacy and completely baseless.

 

[perrykemp]

It's possible that he is a good enough coach now but don't have enough good players.

[/quote]

I fully admit that possibility.

I also believe the other possibility is just as likely -- he either isn't a good coach OR he has some positive elements but needs to get fired (ala Belicheck and Carroll), take his lumps, and someday will come back (somewhere else) and be a great coach.

 

[Corso]

Love Gene Wilder.