How long, is long enough?

[fifaguy]

I wanted to get the boards opinions on how long and how many games coached does it take to determine
if you have the right headcoach for your team.
At the end of this season Garrett will have been HC for 3.5 seasons.

In your opinion is that enough time for Jerry to make a quality decision about Garrett ?

One School of thought is that we are improving and that it is a process, and it will take time for Garrett to get his type of players in.

The other School says that Garrett's a terrible clock manager and his offense is outdated.

Just curious how my fellow Cowboy fans feel ?

it's been long enough; hopefully JJ will can the guy at the end of the season...

 

[jobberone]

I just find it insane to have Garrett as the coach of a 2.1 billion dollar franchise, the Cowboys are the 5th most valuable sports team in the world and their coach is at best mediocre, at best. And the worst part is that there are options out there, Reid was available, so was Holmgren, Cowher, Chucky, Lovie Smith, heck, even Sean Payton was for a while last season. It's like having Christian Ponder as your QB when Tony Romo, Phillip Rivers and Matt Ryan are all free agents and looking for a job and getting one of them would not count against the cap.

Again, it's insane.

LOL! Reid is a great coach but he just lost his job due to underperforming. The fact he fell into a honey pot with KC who was ready to take off mostly due to its defense is partly due to him and mostly just good 'Jus'. Holmgren is not wanted by anyone including as a GM. Cowher wouldn't be anyone without his DC. Chucky is hated by his players and is a trouble maker. Lovie is a good coach and I'd take him but I won't say he's better than Garrett. And I don't just use someone's won/lost record as how good they are. Sean was never leaving NO but I'd take him over Garrett at this point in time. Whether that continues over both their career's is TBD.

What does that have to do with how good a coach is Garrett? Actually no one on this site really knows. That's TBD.

 

[TTexasTT]

Only folks who hate Reid are Philly fans. Most of them if they spoke honestly who probably admit they were just sick of the guy more than they hated him.

I guess its understandable. Id imagine even here that despite all the success he had with the deep runs, the lack of a SB the masses would be wanting to run him outta town as well. He will probably thrive in KC where the fans are a little more tolerabe.

Wait.. wasnt he the guy who had all the problems at home with his kids running drugs outta his house or something?

 

[jobberone]

Three years ago the Cowboys had 9 players invited to the Pro-Bowl.which was the second most players in the NFL. I'm not saying it's the end all, cure all, as an indicator and we shouldn't always strive to improve, but this idea that JG inherited a team devoid of any talent and has had one of the toughest job in the NFL to restock a talentless team is lunacy and completely baseless.

Wow! I can't believe you'd use the Pro Bowl as a measurement of true talent. See, I can play that game, too. And it would be just as silly even though I wouldn't use the Pro Bowl anymore as a very good argument for talent. If you actually think the Cowboys have had an excess of talent during the Garrett era then you'd best look again.

 

[jobberone]

Meanwhile has anyone seen their drafting history under Harbaugh? I'd be a bit worried if I were 49ers fans that the window may not be as big as they thought.

Oh and Seattle and SF get to spend lavishly everywhere since their QBs are on rookie deals. Wait till that changes.

That's too difficult for people who just look at the record of a team and say we need to get new players and new coaches and a new FO. I'd say it was the age we live in but fans like that have been around since I can remember.

 

[Dodger12]

Because Landry didn't win a playoff game until 66. He had plenty of time to build a team. Thru the draft although he got some pretty good players off other teams just not enough. How long did it take MN to win. Or Atlanta? So Landry must have been a pretty good coach. But he had people calling for his head. Instead Clint gave the guy a ten year contract to shut them all up. Now I'm not saying Garrett is a Landry. Not at all but only it takes time to build a team from a severe talent deficit.

So I didn't compare Landry to Garrett or even say the situation was the same. Only that it takes time to rebuild and not all situations are the same which is what you're saying right. Wow!!

I was more than willing to give time to rebuild after the dynasty years. I was patient during the Campo years although you may feel we didn't give him enough time to turn it around. I thought we were going in the right direction during the BP years, especially after we found a franchise QB. The biggest decision Jerry had to make was choosing the next HC to replace Parcells and he picked Wade. That decision alone has put this franchise back years and now we have to be patient with JG. Please......just stop.

 

[tecolote]

Holmgren?
Gruden?
Lovie?
Reid?
My lord... Have a look around some of the other teams sites. Those guys are hated as much if not more than JG.

BTW Payton was never available.

This is what I'm talking about, it's like you are living in a bubble, there is not one team in the league that would take JG over any of those guys. And what are you taling about? There is a street named after Holmgren in GB, he took Seattle to the SB, Lovie took Chicago there with Rex Grossman as QB, Gruden won a SB with Tampa, and I'm sure they hate, HATE, Reid in KC. He even got a standing ovation in Philly this year, in Philly!!!

I really find it insane that people would prefer Garrett to any of those coaches.

 

[perrykemp]

Holmgren is not wanted by anyone including as a GM.

Funny thing about Holmgren -- he is only 65 and in 17 years of coaching got three teams to the Superbowl, winning one, losing one, and getting screwed in one (the Seahawks - Pittsburg game) by a infamously bad call.

By my count he got his team to the big game on a average of every 5.6 years.

Both times, he took clubs there were considered VERY BAD and brought them to newfound respectability - the Packers in fact have been the winningest team in the NFC since Holmgren took over in 1992.

In short, I think he is a good coach and is terribly under-rated.

Small qualifier - I think Holmgren has been a terrible GM.

 

[Risen Star]

Did you just ask me how long does it take for Jerry to make a quality decision?

I'll let you know.

 

[TTexasTT]

This is what I'm talking about, it's like you are living in a bubble, there is not one team in the league that would take JG over any of those guys. And what are you taling about? There is a street named after Holmgren in GB, he took Seattle to the SB, Lovie took Chicago there with Rex Grossman as QB, Gruden won a SB with Tampa, and I'm sure they hate, HATE, Reid in KC. He even got a standing ovation in Philly this year, in Philly!!!

I really find it insane that people would prefer Garrett to any of those coaches.

lol you cant be serious.

 

[perrykemp]

I guess its understandable. Id imagine even here that despite all the success he had with the deep runs, the lack of a SB the masses would be wanting to run him outta town as well. He will probably thrive in KC where the fans are a little more tolerabe.

Makes you wonder if they need to make these great coahes take forced 1 year sabbaticals every 10 years or so to recharge the batteries.

I have a strong suspicion Philly fans will look back 10 years from now and long for Andy Reid.

Dick Vermeil was enough guy where a forced sabbatical would have done him good.

 

[OhSnap]

I fully admit that possibility.

I also believe the other possibility is just as likely -- he either isn't a good coach OR he has some positive elements but needs to get fired (ala Belicheck and Carroll), take his lumps, and someday will come back (somewhere else) and be a great coach.[/quote]

I think theres definitely something there. I would rather be totally convinced that he can't cut it by giving him 2 more years than I would see him go somewhere else and come back to ATT stadium and beat the brakes off the Dallas Cowboys. But I also see an element of Dave Wandstadt in his personality that worries me.

 

[KJJ]

In all comes down to what kind of situation a head coach enters into. You have to look at the overall talent they inherited and what kind of rebuilding process they have to undertake. If they don't have a QB you have to give a head coach 3 years to try and find one who's at least an upgrade over the QB that helped get the last head coach fired so the team can start making some progress and improve. Garrett took over a Cowboys team in 2010 that many were picking to go to the SB that season. He inherited one of the most productive QB's in the league and arguably the most dominating pass rusher in the game. He inherited a future HOF TE and a very talented rookie WR. He inherited a team that went 11-5 the year before and won a playoff game. The team Garrett took over was good enough to finish the 2010 season 5-3 with an aging backup QB. Those 5 wins included a win on the road over a Peyton Manning led Colts team. Since the 2010 season the Cowboys have gone through 3 drafts which included two top 10 picks. They've completely overhauled their roster and all it's led to is back to back 8-8 seasons and a 4-4 start to the 2013 season.

Garrett has mismanaged games in each of his 2 full seasons that helped cost the Cowboys games. His conservative play not to lose approach and inability to manage the clock helped cost the Cowboys another game last week. Garrett has had plenty of time to improve the team but the Cowboys continue spinning their wheels under his direction. I've seen no progress in the Cowboys since he took over it's like groundhog day every season watching the Cowboys continue to find ways to lose winnable games in the 4th quarter and play up and down 500 football. Garrett lobbied hard for old man Kiffin and now the Cowboys currently have the worst defense in the NFL that may end up the worst in NFL history by the end of this season. The best the Cowboys looked under Garrett was when he first took over the team in 2010 as the interim HC.

Once he got his fingerprints all over the team the Cowboys have been in a 500 rut they can't get out of despite numerous personnel changes and several coaching moves. I think after 48 games of mediocrity it's time to make a change at HC. NFL teams are suppose to be developing players not their HC. The Cowboys need a qualified HC who knows how to lead and organize a team not one who's still trying to learn out how to manage a damn clock. The Cowboys are looking more dysfunctional under Garrett every season. The frustration has boiled over to the point that we're starting to see players yelling at each other on the sidelines. The players aren't buying into Garrett. If we don't see a strong second half of the season that leads to a playoff birth it's time for Garrett to go.

 

[xwalker]

Oh yeah? Would love some examples.

Garret inherited a mess of a team....that was old in a ton of spots and had little depth outside of these aging veterans.

The team is more talented now and younger. Nevermind we've had horrendous luck with injuries the last two years. Call it an excuse...because it is one...but it's also true.

Garrett's show me year will be next year.

Cry about it if you want. But it's true.

Agree.

There's really no point looking for another coach if you don't have the talent. Garrett has never had a season with both a quality OLine and quality DLine.

Also, the minute that Jerry decided to fire Ryan and hire Kiffin/Marinelli and promote Callahan to OC, was the minute that Garrett was guaranteed to return in 2014. If the defense is bad this season Jerry will attribute it to the scheme change. If the offense if bad, Callahan might get the axe.

The massive number of injuries to key players is also highly visible to Jerry. Especially being without Ratliff and Spencer and having Ware and Murray missing games.

In 2014 it could be a different story. I think Jerry will have high expectations for the team and Garrett unless something happens to Romo.

 

[Dodger12]

Wow! I can't believe you'd use the Pro Bowl as a measurement of true talent. See, I can play that game, too. And it would be just as silly even though I wouldn't use the Pro Bowl anymore as a very good argument for talent. If you actually think the Cowboys have had an excess of talent during the Garrett era then you'd best look again.

As I said, it's not an end all, cure all measure of talent. But it sure beats the average of two players we've seen under Garrett. How exactly do you evaluate all this great talent we've drafted and developed if they are only great in our own homer minds? We certainly don't use wins and losses as a barometer around here so what do you use? Who is playing at a Pro Bowl level this year? Lee, Tyrone Smith, Hatcher? Dez is one man highlight real but will he have the stats to back those catches up? Just please point me to this plethora of talent and what impartial measure you use in comparing them to other players at their position other than being a homer.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

Three years ago the Cowboys had 9 players invited to the Pro-Bowl.which was the second most players in the NFL. I'm not saying it's the end all, cure all, as an indicator and we shouldn't always strive to improve, but this idea that JG inherited a team devoid of any talent and has had one of the toughest job in the NFL to restock a talentless team is lunacy and completely baseless.

2010 Pro Bowlers were:

Ratlif, Ware, McBriar, Witten, Gurode. Austin was an alternate.

The 2-14 Chiefs had what 7 pro bowlers last year?

 

[jobberone]

I was more than willing to give time to rebuild after the dynasty years. I was patient during the Campo years although you may feel we didn't give him enough time to turn it around. I thought we were going in the right direction during the BP years, especially after we found a franchise QB. The biggest decision Jerry had to make was choosing the next HC to replace Parcells and he picked Wade. That decision alone has put this franchise back years and now we have to be patient with JG. Please......just stop.

The fact you have or haven't been patient has nothing to do with whether or not Garrett is good enough to win here. Neither is the fact that Jerry picked Wade. I have no idea why you'd even bring them up although I understand your frustration. I'd bet most of us are frustrated. When you lose too much then the natives get restless. When you win then you're 'great'. Then when you lose again you 'suck'. Life is oh so simple for most fans. The truth is the situation is oh so complicated and the variables are constantly changing.

For the umpteenth time, I don't know if Garrett is the guy but if someone asks me my opinion then I'm going to try and be as professional as I can be as a fan and look at the situation fairly and logically. That's not saying I'm right because I try to do that but it's infinitely better than saying 'I'm tired of losing. We suck. Do something different. Anything. He's the problem. Get him and all our problems are solved and we can live in peace, property and harmony for the rest of our days.

Not that simple.

 

[Zordon]

Why would you laugh at me?

I'll be just as sad as you are after another wasted year of Romo's prime.

It's like some 'fans' would rather we underachieve so they can say "I told you so" rather than have us win and need to eat some crow.

It's really weird.

yep that's it.

 

[tecolote]

LOL! Reid is a great coach but he just lost his job due to underperforming. The fact he fell into a honey pot with KC who was ready to take off mostly due to its defense is partly due to him and mostly just good 'Jus'. Holmgren is not wanted by anyone including as a GM. Cowher wouldn't be anyone without his DC. Chucky is hated by his players and is a trouble maker. Lovie is a good coach and I'd take him but I won't say he's better than Garrett. And I don't just use someone's won/lost record as how good they are. Sean was never leaving NO but I'd take him over Garrett at this point in time. Whether that continues over both their career's is TBD.

What does that have to do with how good a coach is Garrett? Actually no one on this site really knows. That's TBD.

With all due respect, this is the type of comment that I find puzzling. There is not one thing that Garrett has done as a head coach that would justify saying he is anywhere near the kind of coach Lovie is. You can have a good talking game but there comes a time where you have to back that talk up, and Garrett simply hasn't.

Believe me, nothing would make me happier than eating crow on this, nothing, but I just don't see it happenning.

 

[TTexasTT]

Makes you wonder if they need to make these great coahes take forced 1 year sabbaticals every 10 years or so to recharge the batteries.

I have a strong suspicion Philly fans will look back 10 years from now and long for Andy Reid.

Dick Vermeil was enough guy where a forced sabbatical would have done him good.

lol I dont know if you post anywhere else but perhaps the best thing about this year are the Philly fans. I also post in a general sports forum where there are tons of Eagle guys. Watching them eat dirt has been fantastic... The first half of their first game against Washington created some of the most absurd claims in NFL fan history. Talking about how Chip Kelly is going to revolutionize the way NFL football is going to be played. I look back on those thread and crindge... but laugh.