How long, is long enough?

[Toruk_Makto]

As I said, it's not an end all, cure all measure of talent. But it sure beats the average of two players we've seen under Garrett. How exactly do you evaluate all this great talent we've drafted and developed if they are only great in our own homer minds? We certainly don't use wins and losses as a barometer around here so what do you use? Who is playing at a Pro Bowl level this year? Lee, Tyrone Smith, Hatcher? Dez is one man highlight real but will he have the stats to back those catches up? Just please point me to this plethora of talent and what impartial measure you use in comparing them to other players at their position other than being a homer.

Dez is 8th in receiving yards and 2nd in receiving touchdowns.

So yes.

 

[jobberone]

As I said, it's not an end all, cure all measure of talent. But it sure beats the average of two players we've seen under Garrett. How exactly do you evaluate all this great talent we've drafted and developed if they are only great in our own homer minds? We certainly don't use wins and losses as a barometer around here so what do you use? Who is playing at a Pro Bowl level this year? Lee, Tyrone Smith, Hatcher? Dez is one man highlight real but will he have the stats to back those catches up? Just please point me to this plethora of talent and what impartial measure you use in comparing them to other players at their position other than being a homer.

Actually, no you didn't say that at all. Nor do I care you didn't say that. Just don't ridicule my posts by using nonsensical 'facts' and lousy logic with a spin of your own. If you want to debate me do it fairly with respect and you'll get it back. Neither one of us knows 'the answer' and we're both fans of the greatest team ever. Deal??

 

[Toruk_Makto]

yep that's it.

So then why would you laugh at me if Garrett was fired? That means we had another wasted year.

Not sure i'd be laughing at fellow Cowboys fans in that situation.

But have at it brother.

 

[john van brocklin]

In all comes down to what kind of situation a head coach enters into. You have to look at the overall talent they inherited and what kind of rebuilding process they have to undertake. If they don't have a QB you have to give a head coach 3 years to try and find one who's at least an upgrade over the QB that helped get the last head coach fired so the team can start making some progress and improve. Garrett took over a Cowboys team in 2010 that many were picking to go to the SB that season. He inherited one of the most productive QB's in the league and arguably the most dominating pass rusher in the game. He inherited a future HOF TE and a very talented rookie WR. He inherited a team that went 11-5 the year before and won a playoff game. The team Garrett took over was good enough to finish the 2010 season 5-3 with an aging backup QB. Those 5 wins included a win on the road over a Peyton Manning led Colts team. Since the 2010 season the Cowboys have gone through 3 drafts which included two top 10 picks. They've completely overhauled their roster and all it's led to is back to back 8-8 seasons and a 4-4 start to the 2013 season.

Garrett has mismanaged games in each of his 2 full seasons that helped cost the Cowboys games. His conservative play not to lose approach and inability to manage the clock helped cost the Cowboys another game last week. Garrett has had plenty of time to improve the team but the Cowboys continue spinning their wheels under his direction. I've seen no progress in the Cowboys since he took over it's like groundhog day every season watching the Cowboys continue to find ways to lose winnable games in the 4th quarter and play up and down 500 football. Garrett lobbied hard for old man Kiffin and now the Cowboys currently have the worst defense in the NFL that may end up the worst in NFL history by the end of this season. The best the Cowboys looked under Garrett was when he first took over the team in 2010 as the interim HC.

Once he got his fingerprints all over the team the Cowboys have been in a 500 rut they can't get out of despite numerous personnel changes and several coaching moves. I think after 48 games of mediocrity it's time to make a change at HC. NFL teams are suppose to be developing players not their HC. The Cowboys need a qualified HC who knows how to lead and organize a team not one who's still trying to learn out how to manage a damn clock. The Cowboys are looking more dysfunctional under Garrett every season. The frustration has boiled over to the point that we're starting to see players yelling at each other on the sidelines. The players aren't buying into Garrett. If we don't see a strong second half of the season that leads to a playoff birth it's time for Garrett to go.

KJJ , You have offered a most compelling answer.

 

[Zordon]

So then why would you laugh at me if Garrett was fired? That means we had another wasted year.

Not sure i'd be laughing at fellow Cowboys fans in that situation.

But have at it brother.

i'd be laughing at YOU specifically b/c you just wasted two years defending imaginary "hopey changey" stuff like RKG, process, culture change, roster turnover, etc. Just a bunch of imaginary baloney to cover up the fact that we are still stuck in a .500 rut.

 

[tecolote]

lol you cant be serious.

Honest question, you are starting a franchise, Reid, and Garrett are available, who do you take?

 

[Dodger12]

2010 Pro Bowlers were:

Ratlif, Ware, McBriar, Witten, Gurode. Austin was an alternate.

The 2-14 Chiefs had what 7 pro bowlers last year?

Austin, Romo, Newman and Jenkins. Yes, they were alternates but they were invited.

 

[jobberone]

With all due respect, this is the type of comment that I find puzzling. There is not one thing that Garrett has done as a head coach that would justify saying he is anywhere near the kind of coach Lovie is. You can have a good talking game but there comes a time where you have to back that talk up, and Garrett simply hasn't.

Believe me, nothing would make me happier than eating crow on this, nothing, but I just don't see it happenning.

Well, there's plenty that Garrett has done that there is to like and compare to Lovie. You guys just want to look at someone's won/loss record, SB rings, yada and refuse to look at what the guy has done for this team to date. You can't evaluate a young coach who has no skins on the wall the same way you do someone who's been around awhile.

One reason I used Landry was not just to refute someone's argument about time singularly as a judgment. Everyone wanted Landry run out of town because he just couldn't win. Clint knew better because he saw what it takes even though Landry had yet to do it. Well, maybe Garrett has 'it' and maybe not. But you can't evaluate the guy over the last year and a half because he's not had a decent defense to put on the field. That's why I say he gets another two years as long as I'm seeing progress in enough areas.

Someone asked what do I see.

OL rebuilt to the point its pretty good. Free is now one of the better tackles in the league and Smith ain't bad. We have a C. There is some depth there although I still nervous about that.

Romo is continuing to develop as a QB. Sure he had a down year last year stat wise but that can happen when you're asked to carry the team. Dez has become a force in the league. WR is a strength now instead of a joke and that's without Austin on the field. TE continues to be a strength and although a lot don't like Escobar he has talent and so does Hanna. RB looks better although Murray can't stay healthy. Dunbar and Randle are players although still young, unproven and with some warts.

LB is a strength instead of a running joke. Huge. DL looks like crap but you can't hang Ratliff on Garrett. Ware or Spencer either. You can credit Garrett with Hatcher though. There weren't many here who saw how good Hatcher was but the coaches did and have since Wade early on. And Garrett brought Marinelli here and he's been DL coach of the year AFAIC. You can laugh at Kiffin but we went from one of the worse teams in the league in TO to one of the best. While S is still a concern it is better with Church and the coaches did see that potential. And Wilcox is going to be a player. You can't fault the coach for not having more resources to work with. I'd say they've done as good as they can with what they have which isn't much on D right now. Can't blame Garrett for Claiborne unless you know he drove that pick which AFAIK he didn't. He didn't drive the Carr pick either although that was ok talent wise just not money wise.

Overall talent and depth have steadily risen since Parcells got here and has accelerated since Garrett has been head coach. Esp at the bottom of the roster but at the top as well.

You can find fault in Garrett with the in game decisions and all know that. Are you going to fire him over that? And ignore the rest of the good things.

 

[TTexasTT]

i'd be laughing at YOU specifically b/c you just wasted two years defending imaginary "hopey changey" stuff like RKG, process, culture change, roster turnover, etc. Just a bunch of imaginary baloney to cover up the fact that we are still stuck in a .500 rut.

Jesus man. Does the Cowboys being at .500 for two years really mean that those two years of your life were wasted? In the scheme of things its not that important. Guess Im dont bleed blue like you... Honestly, youre being a little dramatic.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

i'd be laughing at YOU specifically b/c you just wasted two years defending imaginary "hopey changey" stuff like RKG, process, culture change, roster turnover, etc. Just a bunch of imaginary baloney to cover up the fact that we are still stuck in a .500 rut.

OK then. I hope that brings your life some much needed happiness.

 

[Dodger12]

Actually, no you didn't say that at all. Nor do I care you didn't say that. Just don't ridicule my posts by using nonsensical 'facts' and lousy logic with a spin of your own. If you want to debate me do it fairly with respect and you'll get it back. Neither one of us knows 'the answer' and we're both fans of the greatest team ever. Deal??

Three years ago the Cowboys had 9 players invited to the Pro-Bowl.which was the second most players in the NFL. I'm not saying it's the end all, cure all, as an indicator and we shouldn't always strive to improve, but this idea that JG inherited a team devoid of any talent and has had one of the toughest job in the NFL to restock a talentless team is lunacy and completely baseless.

Actually, I said it and was referring to an earlier post, not necessarily to you. And I can accept the deal...........

 

[visionary]

Oh yeah? Would love some examples.

.

Niners
Seahawks
Chiefs
Colts

Just off the top of my head
I am sure there are others

I will let you get back to your excuses

 

[Picksix]

I think we would more than likely be hearing Marinelli touted for coach of the year more than Garrett

How does a DL coach get touted for coach of the year?

 

[tecolote]

Well, there's plenty that Garrett has done that there is to like and compare to Lovie. You guys just want to look at someone's won/loss record, SB rings, yada and refuse to look at what the guy has done for this team to date. You can't evaluate a young coach who has no skins on the wall the same way you do someone who's been around awhile.

One reason I used Landry was not just to refute someone's argument about time singularly as a judgment. Everyone wanted Landry run out of town because he just couldn't win. Clint knew better because he saw what it takes even though Landry had yet to do it. Well, maybe Garrett has 'it' and maybe not. But you can't evaluate the guy over the last year and a half because he's not had a decent defense to put on the field. That's why I say he gets another two years as long as I'm seeing progress in enough areas.

Someone asked what do I see.

OL rebuilt to the point its pretty good. Free is now one of the better tackles in the league and Smith ain't bad. We have a C. There is some depth there although I still nervous about that.

Romo is continuing to develop as a QB. Sure he had a down year last year stat wise but that can happen when you're asked to carry the team. Dez has become a force in the league. WR is a strength now instead of a joke and that's without Austin on the field. TE continues to be a strength and although a lot don't like Escobar he has talent and so does Hanna. RB looks better although Murray can't stay healthy. Dunbar and Randle are players although still young, unproven and with some warts.

LB is a strength instead of a running joke. Huge. DL looks like crap but you can't hang Ratliff on Garrett. Ware or Spencer either. You can credit Garrett with Hatcher though. There weren't many here who saw how good Hatcher was but the coaches did and have since Wade early on. And Garrett brought Marinelli here and he's been DL coach of the year AFAIC. You can laugh at Kiffin but we went from one of the worse teams in the league in TO to one of the best. While S is still a concern it is better with Church and the coaches did see that potential. And Wilcox is going to be a player. You can't fault the coach for not having more resources to work with. I'd say they've done as good as they can with what they have which isn't much on D right now. Can't blame Garrett for Claiborne unless you know he drove that pick which AFAIK he didn't. He didn't drive the Carr pick either although that was ok talent wise just not money wise.

Overall talent and depth have steadily risen since Parcells got here and has accelerated since Garrett has been head coach. Esp at the bottom of the roster but at the top as well.

You can find fault in Garrett with the in game decisions and all know that. Are you going to fire him over that? And ignore the rest of the good things.

Thanks for the well thought out answer, it was a very good read. I agree 100% with you that the team has improved talent wise, but in my opinion, that should translate into more wins, and it simply hasn't. What really kills me about Garrett are those in game decisions, this team should have been a playoff team the last couple of years but for those decisions.

I like the guy, he seems like a good person, as a matter of fact, I think he would make a good GM, but so far, as a coach, on gameday, he has not shown much, if at all.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

Niners
Seahawks
Chiefs
Colts

Just off the top of my head
I am sure there are others

I will let you get back to your excuses

4 teams...going from a piss poor qb situation to an above average one....are our examples?

Nevermind that there are 60 NFL teams that have missed the playoffs over the last 3 years.

You have 3 examples.

I will let you get back to trying to think critically.

 

[Vanilla2]

This is what I'm talking about, it's like you are living in a bubble, there is not one team in the league that would take JG over any of those guys. And what are you taling about? There is a street named after Holmgren in GB, he took Seattle to the SB, Lovie took Chicago there with Rex Grossman as QB, Gruden won a SB with Tampa, and I'm sure they hate, HATE, Reid in KC. He even got a standing ovation in Philly this year, in Philly!!!

I really find it insane that people would prefer Garrett to any of those coaches.

You just want names.

I don't think Garrett is the greatest coach ever but I'm not gonna spout off all the big name coaches and say they are definitely better.

I bet you want Dallas to sign Seymour.

 

[jobberone]

How does a DL coach get touted for coach of the year?

That's not what I said. I said, "he's been DL coach of the year AFAIC". I have no idea if they actually have a position's coach of the year award. If they do I've never heard of it. I'm just saying he has been an incredible defensive line coach. That's what most reasonable people with ordinary reading skills would have gotten from that IMO. I suspect you know what I meant though.

 

[ElGatoGrande]

Unfortunately in Dallas there seems to be a never-ending parade of mitigating circumstances, predominantly caused by the GM. It's impossible to get a clear read on WTH is going on out there and when you throw in a plague of injuries you're left with too many variables. In the end we must return to the elephant in the room and ask, "Why has this been going on for a decade and a half? How is that even possible?" The answer is the one constant throughout this never-ending embarrassment: Jerry Jones.

 

[TrailBlazer]

This is what I'm talking about, it's like you are living in a bubble, there is not one team in the league that would take JG over any of those guys. And what are you taling about? There is a street named after Holmgren in GB, he took Seattle to the SB, Lovie took Chicago there with Rex Grossman as QB, Gruden won a SB with Tampa, and I'm sure they hate, HATE, Reid in KC. He even got a standing ovation in Philly this year, in Philly!!!

I really find it insane that people would prefer Garrett to any of those coaches.

It's really is insane. How many times do we have to be out coached in critical situations before everyone realizes it? Perpetual under achieving under Garrett. His offensive scheme is terrible. Horrid clock mangement under Garrett. Playing down to competition inder garrett. Losing close games because of lack of leadership from garrett (getting out coached). I could go on and on

 

[jobberone]

Thanks for the well thought out answer, it was a very good read. I agree 100% with you that the team has improved talent wise, but in my opinion, that should translate into more wins, and it simply hasn't. What really kills me about Garrett are those in game decisions, this team should have been a playoff team the last couple of years but for those decisions.

I like the guy, he seems like a good person, as a matter of fact, I think he would make a good GM, but so far, as a coach, on gameday, he has not shown much, if at all.

Thank you. I appreciate that a lot. Again I don't see how wins and losses esp over the last year and a half mean much considering we've been crippled on defense due to injuries and playing with a huge handicap on offense with a poor offensive line last year particularly the first 3/4 of the year.