I am backing Wade, but stats dont lie...

[theebs]

Your entitled to your opinion, you've had your say. I don't agree. Lets just leave it at that.

Fine with me. Any of them can play on my team, and thankfully one does.

 

[superpunk]

I think it's more then that. Witten works the short middle of the field. Gates and Gonzales usually don't. We will run routes designed to lead Witten right into the teeth of the defense because he has the size to withstand. Gonzales and Gates are not typically used in this way. They run short routes, that's true but most to the side lines or the edges. It's just a different kind of game IMO. It's not just the average yard per catch, it's the kinds of routes and catches they are making. I mean, I guess you don't have to agree and that's fine but it is different. They are not the same kinds of TEs IMO. How many times have you heard people around the league say that Witten is a complete TE? They don't say that about Gonzales, Gates or even LJ smith. It's because they are not the same. Witten works a different kind of game.

This is a lovely bit of posting, but it's not exactly factual. Gonzalez and Gates run the same kinds of routes Witten does, similar amounts of time. We run those option routes with Witten off the right side all the time, where he either sits down on a curl or floats to the sideline. If I had to guess, I'd say Gonzalez is found over the middle of the field more than Witten.

Witten's a good blocker, but judging from the back's playing on KC and SD's production, those TEs aren't slouches, either.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

This is a lovely bit of posting, but it's not exactly factual. Gonzalez and Gates run the same kinds of routes Witten does, similar amounts of time. We run those option routes with Witten off the right side all the time, where he either sits down on a curl or floats to the sideline. If I had to guess, I'd say Gonzalez is found over the middle of the field more than Witten.

Witten's a good blocker, but judging from the back's playing on KC and SD's production, those TEs aren't slouches, either.

BS. I can't put it any other way. They don't run the same kinds of routes, they don't even run the same offenses. This is just not true but I'm not going to argue the point. I have said what I know to be true. If you don't wish to believe it, then that's your affair. I clearly can't convince you of it and I have little desire to try. It is not worth the time wasted to do so.

 

[superpunk]

BS. I can't put it any other way. They don't run the same kinds of routes, they don't even run the same offenses. This is just not true but I'm not going to argue the point. I have said what I know to be true. If you don't wish to believe it, then that's your affair. I clearly can't convince you of it and I have little desire to try. It is not worth the time wasted to do so.

Well, I certainly appreciate all the proof and effort you put into backing up your opinion, before giving up completely - and declaring opposing viewpoints BS. That's the kind of posting we like best.

Very impressive, indeed.

According to their splits, Witten caught 8 passes over the middle last year. Where he made his money was the right side, where he caught 28 passes, and the right sideline, where he caught 11. Gonzalez, caught 12 passes over the middle - and if you take out his 57 yard reception his ypc over the middle is very similar to Witten's. They don't use Gonzalez dramatically differently than we use Witten. They just put him all over the field, and use him a little more downfield, as he's a superior athlete. Witten's bread and butter was that option route last year, mostly rolling to the sideline.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Well, I certainly appreciate all the proof and effort you put into backing up your opinion, before giving up completely - and declaring opposing viewpoints BS. That's the kind of posting we like best.

Very impressive, indeed.

According to their splits, Witten caught 8 passes over the middle last year. Where he made his money was the right side, where he caught 28 passes, and the right sideline, where he caught 11. Gonzalez, caught 12 passes over the middle - and if you take out his 57 yard reception his ypc over the middle is very similar to Witten's. They don't use Gonzalez dramatically differently than we use Witten. They just put him all over the field, and use him a little more downfield, as he's a superior athlete. Witten's bread and butter was that option route last year, mostly rolling to the sideline.

Witten's game is completely different then either of the other two. To get more specific, we're talking about the short middle of the field as opposed to the intermediate where Gonzo makes a living. If your saying that Gonzales is running slants right into the MLB/ILBs, then I'm going to ask you to show me. He just doesn't do that. He runs routes to the middle, at the Safeties and by them. He has made a living on this for years. The fact that they line Gonzales up at WR or motion him out at WR is proof that he's not asked to do the same things. You totally disregard the fact that he's rearly kept in to block. He's almost always motioned away or used to chip, on his way to his route. They are not used the same way, for the same things. I mean, I should not even have to have this discussion with you. If you watch all three teams, you would know what I'm saying is true. Lastly, you don't even mention Gates and how he's used, which is also a part of the discussion. This is why I don't care to have this conversation with you. I know that I am not wrong here. They are not the same kinds of TEs. The offenses are completely different yet, your trying to argue the point with me that they, in fact are. There's no percentage in having this conversation. You are unwilling to accept even the most fundemental truths on it. It's pointless and will only waste a lot of time going round and round. Why have it?

 

[stilltheguru]

This is my fear. Blitzing is great in the regular season against sub-par and mediocre offenses who don't execute at a high level consistantly. But once you get into the playoffs and you face off against good QBs who quickly process information and find the open WR, playing behind well coached-disciplined OLs who consistently pick up the blitz and our secondary is dead meat. Troy has always said that in the 90's there was nothing he loved more than a team that tried to blitz their offense, it just made things easier for him. You take the best defenses of all time, and they are generally not complicated defenses. They executed a simple scheme at an extremely high level. The key word being "execute". Our defenses of the 90's were not complicated defenses, nor did they utilize a lot of blitz. Check the sack numbers of our LB's and S's during that era. Heck, the Tampa 2 is about the most basic scheme in the history of the game.

^u mean like the steelers defenses the past hundred years?ahhhh i see

 

[superpunk]

Witten's game is completely different then either of the other two. To get more specific, we're talking about the short middle of the field as opposed to the intermediate where Gonzo makes a living. If your saying that Gonzales is running slants right into the MLB/ILBs, then I'm going to ask you to show me. He just doesn't do that. He runs routes to the middle, at the Safeties and by them. He has made a living on this for years. The fact that they line Gonzales up at WR or motion him out at WR is proof that he's not asked to do the same things. You totally disregard the fact that he's rearly kept in to block. He's almost always motioned away or used to chip, on his way to his route. They are not used the same way, for the same things. I mean, I should not even have to have this discussion with you. If you watch all three teams, you would know what I'm saying is true. Lastly, you don't even mention Gates and how he's used, which is also a part of the discussion. This is why I don't care to have this conversation with you. I know that I am not wrong here. They are not the same kinds of TEs. The offenses are completely different yet, your trying to argue the point with me that they, in fact are. There's no percentage in having this conversation. You are unwilling to accept even the most fundemental truths on it. It's pointless and will only waste a lot of time going round and round. Why have it?

So basically...your opinion is right, there's no way they are used similarly, all proof is false, and you don't care to talk about it.

Yep, just another standard conversation with ABQ.:laugh2:

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

So basically...your opinion is right, there's no way they are used similarly, all proof is false, and you don't care to talk about it.

Yep, just another standard conversation with ABQ.:laugh2:

Sure, if that's the way you want to view it, lets just go with that. Are you finished now?

 

[superpunk]

Sure, if that's the way you want to view it, lets just go with that. Are you finished now?

I love it when you try to get all uppity.

It's adorable.

If you could defend your poorly thought-out point beyond "I'm right, you're wrong...so I'm not going to even bother with this conversation" then you wouldn't have to keep saying that you're done with the conversation, all the while continuing it. You might even be able to input meaningful thoughts.

But, it's always the same...people disagree....people bring facts....ABQ runs.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I love it when you try to get all uppity.

It's adorable.

If you could defend your poorly thought-out point beyond "I'm right, you're wrong...so I'm not going to even bother with this conversation" then you wouldn't have to keep saying that you're done with the conversation, all the while continuing it. You might even be able to input meaningful thoughts.

But, it's always the same...people disagree....people bring facts....ABQ runs.

I guess your not done. OK, well, let me know when you think your done then.

Thanks

 

[superpunk]

then you wouldn't have to keep saying that you're done with the conversation, all the while continuing it.

You're psychic, aren't you?

You sexy beast, you....(this is some hot superpunk-on-superpunk action)

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

You're psychic, aren't you?

You sexy beast, you....(this is some hot superpunk-on-superpunk action)

First I'm cute, now I'm a sexy beast. Your starting to confuse the masses here.

 

[superpunk]

First I'm cute, now I'm a sexy beast. Your starting to confuse the masses here.

All this, and the ability to read? :

hint: I quoted myself.

 

[stilltheguru]

Both Of Yall Quit Cryin!

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

All this, and the ability to read? :

hint: I quoted myself.

Your talking to yourself, I got that several posts ago.

Thanks for the tip.

 

[DallasEast]

Both Of Yall Quit Cryin!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CezNIRYYGY

 

[5Stars]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CezNIRYYGY

:laugh2: :laugh2: That was good...

 

[bayarealightning]

I will say that this thread has been very entertaining. Unless you have watched every Chargers game or have watched film of every Chargers game, you are just guessing. Gates is an All-Pro. Not just Pro-Bowl, but All-Pro. Judged by those who are in the game. In 2004 when Brees was about to lose his job to the rookie Philip Rivers, Brees found his groove. His groove was one Antonio Gates. The problem Brees was having was that he was not able to work the sideline routes because his height and arm strength (I believe that rehabing his shoulder also increased his arm strength). Brees worked the middle of the field by throwing to Gates. The guy is 6'5" and 265 lbs. He is too fast for LBs and too BIG for Safeties. there is nothing on the field in the passing game that he cannot do. Period! Gates is the only TE in the history of the game to have 3 consecutive years with double digit TDs and just missed out last year playing with a new starting QB.

If you think that all of those TDs were down the field you are flat out wrong. Gates is a nightmare. Teams have to game plan for him. If he only worked down the field, then it is easier to prepare. Keep your safeties back. But that is not how teams plan for the Chargers. They game plan by giving our WRs single coverage and crowding the middle of the field to take away Gates. They do this by bracketing him with a LB and a Safety, or they do not give their Safeties the deep sideline responsibilities. And he still dominates.

He is the Chargers leading receiver, and teams still cant stop him. Some how you have justified that there is this perceived weakness in the NFL's All-Pro TE (there is only one). Is he the best blocking TE? No, but I do not see Gates getting out of the way for the NFL's #2 Rushing Offense. He is becoming a better blocker.

Also, you are wrong, we do not bring in an extra OT on running plays. We bring in Brandon Manumaleuna as our blocking TE (we picked him up from the Rams last year on a draft day trade) who also has soft hands. He caught the winning TD on that miraculous comeback in Cincy last year.

Say what you will, Gates play speaks for itself. He is the best at his position.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I will say that this thread has been very entertaining. Unless you have watched every Chargers game or have watched film of every Chargers game, you are just guessing. Gates is an All-Pro. Not just Pro-Bowl, but All-Pro. Judged by those who are in the game. In 2004 when Brees was about to lose his job to the rookie Philip Rivers, Brees found his groove. His groove was one Antonio Gates. The problem Brees was having was that he was not able to work the sideline routes because his height and arm strength (I believe that rehabing his shoulder also increased his arm strength). Brees worked the middle of the field by throwing to Gates. The guy is 6'5" and 265 lbs. He is too fast for LBs and too BIG for Safeties. there is nothing on the field in the passing game that he cannot do. Period! Gates is the only TE in the history of the game to have 3 consecutive years with double digit TDs and just missed out last year playing with a new starting QB.

If you think that all of those TDs were down the field you are flat out wrong. Gates is a nightmare. Teams have to game plan for him. If he only worked down the field, then it is easier to prepare. Keep your safeties back. But that is not how teams plan for the Chargers. They game plan by giving our WRs single coverage and crowding the middle of the field to take away Gates. They do this by bracketing him with a LB and a Safety, or they do not give their Safeties the deep sideline responsibilities. And he still dominates.

He is the Chargers leading receiver, and teams still cant stop him. Some how you have justified that there is this perceived weakness in the NFL's All-Pro TE (there is only one). Is he the best blocking TE? No, but I do not see Gates getting out of the way for the NFL's #2 Rushing Offense. He is becoming a better blocker.

Also, you are wrong, we do not bring in an extra OT on running plays. We bring in Brandon Manumaleuna as our blocking TE (we picked him up from the Rams last year on a draft day trade) who also has soft hands. He caught the winning TD on that miraculous comeback in Cincy last year.

Say what you will, Gates play speaks for itself. He is the best at his position.

I have not seen every game San Diego plays but since I typically get West Cost programing, as opposed to what you see in Texas, I see a lot of there games. I do not believe he is the best TE in football. I also don't agree that teams game plan to stop Gates, per say. I believe they game plan to take away LT. Gates is a match up problem, for anybody, that's very true. However, he is a liability in the run game IMO. I have seen nobody in this thread suggest that Gates is not a great player. However, I do not believe he is the best TE in football simply because I don't believe that Receiving is the only facit to playing the TE position. Gates is not a very good blocker. I have seen this myself. I don't know if you are saying that he has improved to the point that he has, in fact, become a good blocking TE or if your just saying that he's getting better. Getting better is fine but he's got a pretty good way to go before he's even considered good in this repsect. I would also ask you if what you are saying, in regards to his working the middle of the field, (with Brees) equates to working underneith the LBs or at the LBs. I, personally, have never seen Gates used much in this area of the field. typically, I see San Diego use his speed to run away from coverage as opposed to using him in a physical inside game. Perhaps I just haven't been around to catch those games but I have never seen San Diego use him much in this respect.

 

[bayarealightning]

I have not seen every game San Diego plays but since I typically get West Cost programing, as opposed to what you see in Texas, I see a lot of there games. I do not believe he is the best TE in football. I also don't agree that teams game plan to stop Gates, per say. I believe they game plan to take away LT. Gates is a match up problem, for anybody, that's very true. However, he is a liability in the run game IMO. I have seen nobody in this thread suggest that Gates is not a great player. However, I do not believe he is the best TE in football simply because I don't believe that Receiving is the only facit to playing the TE position. Gates is not a very good blocker. I have seen this myself. I don't know if you are saying that he has improved to the point that he has, in fact, become a good blocking TE or if your just saying that he's getting better. Getting better is fine but he's got a pretty good way to go before he's even considered good in this repsect. I would also ask you if what you are saying, in regards to his working the middle of the field, (with Brees) equates to working underneith the LBs or at the LBs. I, personally, have never seen Gates used much in this area of the field. typically, I see San Diego use his speed to run away from coverage as opposed to using him in a physical inside game. Perhaps I just haven't been around to catch those games but I have never seen San Diego use him much in this respect.

He is an adequit blocker, but his receiveing skills so out pace anyone else that combined, he is the best. If he is not the best, then why did he peers vote him All-Pro? All-Pro means that you are the best at your position!