I am backing Wade, but stats dont lie...

[TEK2000]

We were aggressive against Detroit too!

That game was fun to watch!

Unleash this defense Wade!

There is a vast ocean of difference between the ridiculous blitz packages that we threw at teams and the elaborate blitzes that Wade Phillips throws at an offense.

John Kitna will not be mocking our defense under Wade Phillips... that's for sure.

 

[TEK2000]

There defensive front seven is better then ours, IMO.

Castillo, Williams, Olshansky, Phillips, Cooper, Wilhelm and Merriman

is better then,

Spears, Ferguson, Canty, Ellis, James, Ayodele and Ware.

There much better on the defensive line then we are, IMO. Canty and Spears just have to step up.

I have my concerns about our DLine as well... that's my biggest concern with this defense really. Jamall Williams is an absolute BEAST at NT for the Chargers and we don't have that play. Fergy is good but he's no Jamall Williams.

I'm holding out until I see Spear/Canty and the gang in THIS scheme before I decide on what I think of them. This scheme is much different than the old one and its very difficult to compare the players with such a difference in how they were instructed to play.

 

[dboyz]

Perhaps you should read the thread. Then, maybe you can understand what I'm trying to say. Nobody is argueing the point of Gates and his ability to challenge a defense vertically. In fact, I've already said as much. You would know this if you had read a bit more. I'm talking about ball control offense, of which, Gates is not suited.

What makes you say he's not suited to ball control offense. He's had 71, 89 and 81 catches the last three years.

Last year he had 71 catches, 9 touchdowns, 14 receptions of 20+ yards and one of 40 + yards. 49 of his receptions were for 1st downs. I don't understand why he's not suited to ball control offense.

 

[theebs]

Perhaps you should read the thread. Then, maybe you can understand what I'm trying to say. Nobody is argueing the point of Gates and his ability to challenge a defense vertically. In fact, I've already said as much. You would know this if you had read a bit more. I'm talking about ball control offense, of which, Gates is not suited.

lol..I have read the thread thanks for the tip.

If you dont think gates can play in a "ball control" offense your misguided. You think he is a vertical threat only, fine. that is entirely not true.

What he is however is the best vertical threat at tight end and the best tight end in the league.

I really dont even understand your argument, you have made no sense in saying he can not play in a "ball control" (your words) offense.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

What makes you say he's not suited to ball control offense. He's had 71, 89 and 81 catches the last three years.

Last year he had 71 catches, 9 touchdowns, 14 receptions of 20+ yards and one of 40 + yards. 49 of his receptions were for 1st downs. I don't understand why he's not suited to ball control offense.

He is not used in that fashion, in San Diego. He's not asked to block much, which by the way, is a big part of a ball control offense, he is used to attack the seams vertically and the edges. His game is speed and athleticisam. You won't find him mixing it up with LBs across the middle much or running stop routes in the teeth of the LBs. Witten can and will do all of this. He's a threat vertically, as well, but he's a guy who will catch it dirty and give what he gets back. San Diego doesn't use Gates that way because one, he's not a physical enough presence. He's maybe 260 soaking wet. Besides, San Diego would never risk his health. They don't want him doing the dirty work on the inside. Witten is very capable of this kind of game. The stats you post tell you why he is not the type of TE that can be used for the ball control style of play.

 

[dboyz]

Witten and TO are physical mismatches for anybody they face. They can physically impose there will on an opposing player. Gates is not that kind of TE. He's more an H-Back type TE. Your not going to get the move the chains type game out of him. He's going to challenge you vertically and that is a dangerous thing but he's not going to be the guy who has 7 catches for 80 yards and 6 1st downs that you need to be an effective ball control team, IMO.

Actually you are going to get those kind of games out of him.

Against Buffalo last year, Gates had 7 receptions for 90 yards, with 6 first downs (nearly the exact stats you hypothesized).

Against Cincinnati he had 5 catches for 69 yards with 3 first downs.

In two games against Denver he had 12 receptions for 152 yards 9 first downs.

Against St. Louis, he had 5 receptions for 66 yards 4 first downs.

Against Tennessee he had 4 catches for 55 yards, 3 first downs.

Against San Francisco he had 5 catches for 78 yards, 2 first downs

In two games against Oakland he had 8 catches for 107 yards, 6 first downs.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Actually you are going to get those kind of games out of him.

Against Buffalo last year, Gates had 7 receptions for 90 yards, with 6 first downs (nearly the exact stats you hypothesized).

Against Cincinnati he had 5 catches for 69 yards with 3 first downs.

In two games against Denver he had 12 receptions for 152 yards 9 first downs.

Against St. Louis, he had 5 receptions for 66 yards 4 first downs.

Against Tennessee he had 4 catches for 55 yards, 3 first downs.

Against San Francisco he had 5 catches for 78 yards, 2 first downs

In two games against Oakland he had 8 catches for 107 yards, 6 first downs.

OK, he's a ball control type TE. He's going to do all the dirty work kinds of things required and I'm sure that he will be described as just that by most of the other teams in the league.

I'm wrong.

 

[dboyz]

OK, he's a ball control type TE. He's going to do all the dirty work kinds of things required and I'm sure that he will be described as just that by most of the other teams in the league.

I'm wrong.

LOL LOL

 

[dboyz]

He is not used in that fashion, in San Diego. He's not asked to block much, which by the way, is a big part of a ball control offense, he is used to attack the seams vertically and the edges. His game is speed and athleticisam. You won't find him mixing it up with LBs across the middle much or running stop routes in the teeth of the LBs. Witten can and will do all of this. He's a threat vertically, as well, but he's a guy who will catch it dirty and give what he gets back. San Diego doesn't use Gates that way because one, he's not a physical enough presence. He's maybe 260 soaking wet. Besides, San Diego would never risk his health. They don't want him doing the dirty work on the inside. Witten is very capable of this kind of game. The stats you post tell you why he is not the type of TE that can be used for the ball control style of play.

I do agree that Witten is probably a better blocker. However, I think Gates can still be part of a successful ball control offense.

I would have to study it more closely than I have to see what kind of and percentage of route each runs in order to address that issue, but whatever Gates has been doing in the SD offense has been pretty good.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

LOL LOL

Rich posted a pretty nice piece just a few minutes ago that speaks to the differences in these two TEs. If you haven't had a chance to read it, might be a good one for you to check out.

Honestly, this really shouldn't be this difficult. There different kinds of TEs. It's pretty easy to see when you watch them, IMO.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I do agree that Witten is probably a better blocker. However, I think Gates can still be part of a successful ball control offense.

I have to study it more closely than I have to see what kind of and percentage of route each runs. Whatever Gates does in the SD offense, it seems to work pretty well.

If your running a WC type offense, then yeah, because they use the short pass in lue of the running game but even then, you must have a TE or RB who can work the middle short areas of the field. The reason Gates is succesful in San Diego's offense is the threat of LT. San Diego has an excellent OL. They don't use the TE in the blocking schemes. They may bring in an extra OL and line him up in the TEs position, the way other teams us a Jumbo package but they really don't use the TE in the classic sense much. Gates is a fine receiving TE but thats about it. His body type is really not think enough to sustain a lot of punishment so it's a waste to use him in that fashion. He's never going to be a TE used to control the middle of the field, which is where you typically see a WR or TE used to "move the chains". Don't get me wrong, you see outs and the occasional seam or fly but typically, these guys find soft spots in the zone or run into the teeth of the defense to make the tough catch for the first downs. I guess the best way I can describe it is that Gates runs away from the defense to do his damage and Witten runs at the defense to do his. I don't know, to me it's very easy to see when I watch both play.

 

[dboyz]

Rich posted a pretty nice piece just a few minutes ago that speaks to the differences in these two TEs. If you haven't had a chance to read it, might be a good one for you to check out.

Honestly, this really shouldn't be this difficult. There different kinds of TEs. It's pretty easy to see when you watch them, IMO.

Thanks. I've read it, it was a good read. I thought it was interesting Rich was surmising that we may be using Witten similarly to how Gates and Gonzales are used.

I guess I don't disagree that Witten and Gates are different tight ends, although not so different that they can't be compared.

I just took issue with the idea that Gates is ill-suited to ball control. Gates is an incredibly effective ball control receiver. I agree with you that he is not a great blocker. Gonzales is not a great blocker either yet KC has had a great running attack at times while he has been there.

 

[theebs]

If your running a WC type offense, then yeah, because they use the short pass in lue of the running game but even then, you must have a TE or RB who can work the middle short areas of the field. The reason Gates is succesful in San Diego's offense is the threat of LT. San Diego has an excellent OL. They don't use the TE in the blocking schemes. They may bring in an extra OL and line him up in the TEs position, the way other teams us a Jumbo package but they really don't use the TE in the classic sense much. Gates is a fine receiving TE but thats about it. His body type is really not think enough to sustain a lot of punishment so it's a waste to use him in that fashion. He's never going to be a TE used to control the middle of the field, which is where you typically see a WR or TE used to "move the chains". Don't get me wrong, you see outs and the occasional seam or fly but typically, these guys find soft spots in the zone or run into the teeth of the defense to make the tough catch for the first downs. I guess the best way I can describe it is that Gates runs away from the defense to do his damage and Witten runs at the defense to do his. I don't know, to me it's very easy to see when I watch both play.

Your whole premise is that he CANT. Completely false. He is such an incredible threat he is used in those areas of the field. It is a leap to say he cant run a 5-8 yard dig route and catch the ball and take the punishment.

There is no way i can believe that. His hands are terrific and he is not afraid of contact as you are portraying. he doesnt have to do these things, or hasnt had to because they utilize his incredible athleticsm and get him down the field.

I really dont see why you are causing such a fuss over this and being snotty to people?

It is a nice talking point to say gates and gonzales do not block etc. It is a stretch to simply limit what you think they are capable of because of how they are used.

If we had gates and he was in blocking I would be livid. He is a nightmare running down the field, and his vertical ability is simply unparalleled.

 

[Big Country]

I think San Diego has a better DL and had a better LB group last year than we do...

We have them beat in the secondary.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Thanks. I've read it, it was a good read. I thought it was interesting Rich was surmising that we may be using Witten similarly to how Gates and Gonzales are used.

I guess I don't disagree that Witten and Gates are different tight ends, although not so different that they can't be compared.

I just took issue with the idea that Gates is ill-suited to ball control. Gates is an incredibly effective ball control receiver. I agree with you that he is not a great blocker. Gonzales is not a great blocker either yet KC has had a great running attack at times while he has been there.

It's not a knock on Gates, per say. He is a great TE but he can't be used in the same way Witten is used. Gates, to me, is not a ball control TE because he doesn't block well. This is why I see him as more of an HBack the a TE. Same with Gonzales. Both are great but neither can do what Witten can do. To me, Witten is more valuable because of this but I'm probably in the minority on that one.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Your whole premise is that he CANT. Completely false. He is such an incredible threat he is used in those areas of the field. It is a leap to say he cant run a 5-8 yard dig route and catch the ball and take the punishment.

There is no way i can believe that. His hands are terrific and he is not afraid of contact as you are portraying. he doesnt have to do these things, or hasnt had to because they utilize his incredible athleticsm and get him down the field.

I really dont see why you are causing such a fuss over this and being snotty to people?

It is a nice talking point to say gates and gonzales do not block etc. It is a stretch to simply limit what you think they are capable of because of how they are used.

If we had gates and he was in blocking I would be livid. He is a nightmare running down the field, and his vertical ability is simply unparalleled.

Your entitled to your opinion, you've had your say. I don't agree. Lets just leave it at that.

 

[Vintage]

It's not a knock on Gates, per say. He is a great TE but he can't be used in the same way Witten is used. Gates, to me, is not a ball control TE because he doesn't block well. This is why I see him as more of an HBack the a TE. Same with Gonzales. Both are great but neither can do what Witten can do. To me, Witten is more valuable because of this but I'm probably in the minority on that one.

Gonzales blocks fine. And Gate's blocking has improved. Its just that they don't use him much for it because they need him to stretch the field.

And how can you say he isn't able to be a ball controlled guy? Based off of what? The fact that the Chargers use him for mismatches down the field?

 

[superpunk]

Your whole premise is that he CANT. Completely false. He is such an incredible threat he is used in those areas of the field. It is a leap to say he cant run a 5-8 yard dig route and catch the ball and take the punishment.

47 of Gonzalez' receptions last year were passes traveling under 10 yards. 45 for Gates. 48 for Witten.

They are used pretty similarly. Gates and Gonzalez are just focused on more, and used downfield a little more.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Gonzales blocks fine. And Gate's blocking has improved. Its just that they don't use him much for it because they need him to stretch the field.

And how can you say he isn't able to be a ball controlled guy? Based off of what? The fact that the Chargers use him for mismatches down the field?

I would disagree with this. Gonzales is, and always has been an average blocker, at best. Gates, IMO, is not a good blocker at all. Neither of these guys are used for blocking because that's not there strength and that's not why they were drafted into the NFL. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm just saying that's the truth of the matter. Blocking is more then just the occasional block. It's being able to withstand the wear and tear on the body for a full season. If either of those guys were used as blockers, I don't beleive they would be in the league long or, they wouldn't be as effective running patterns over a long period of time. There simply to light for that type of work, long term.

Yes, that's exactly why. Ball control is typically, short area pass catching as opposed to vertical threat WRs. It's fine to have that. Not saying it's bad but that's really more of a WR role as opposed to a TE's role in a ball control offense. Clearly, they don't use Gonzales or Gates in this role. He's used in more of a WR role as opposed to the traditional TE role in San Diego's offense.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

47 of Gonzalez' receptions last year were passes traveling under 10 yards. 45 for Gates. 48 for Witten.

They are used pretty similarly. Gates and Gonzalez are just focused on more, and used downfield a little more.

I think it's more then that. Witten works the short middle of the field. Gates and Gonzales usually don't. We will run routes designed to lead Witten right into the teeth of the defense because he has the size to withstand. Gonzales and Gates are not typically used in this way. They run short routes, that's true but most to the side lines or the edges. It's just a different kind of game IMO. It's not just the average yard per catch, it's the kinds of routes and catches they are making. I mean, I guess you don't have to agree and that's fine but it is different. They are not the same kinds of TEs IMO. How many times have you heard people around the league say that Witten is a complete TE? They don't say that about Gonzales, Gates or even LJ smith. It's because they are not the same. Witten works a different kind of game.