Interesting Elliott stat, yards after contact

[DogFace]

Pretend something didn't happen that did to try and justify poor decision making?

That's... Not smart.

Your stance on this isn't either.

So try it.

 

[SDCowboy]

Zeke is overrated right?

Who ever said that?

 

[Toruk_Makto]

For this team the way it is set up Zeke made sense. More than Ramsey. A top D back makes little difference if you do not have the pass rush. A top RB can do wonders with a top OL and can do nothing with a bad O line.
Your so called logic is deeply flawed.

This logic is completely backwards. The way this team is set up means we needed Zeke LESS. Not MORE.

Look what washed up McFadden did in not even a complete season as our starting running back in a season where we were historically bad throwing the ball.

Our offensive line means we should be able to go cheap at rb and rush at an elite level. We actually proved exactly that in 2014 AND 2015 in two completely opposite environments.

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

IF Ramsey was a INT monster in College to go with everything else...I could understand it. However he was not.
IF there was a top end can't miss DE to take over Zeke..I could understand it, however Bosa was taken before our pick so even if you thought he was going to be a beast, and the majority did not, I could again understand it.

And PLEASE do not bring up what A one season McFadden did for our team prior to us getting Zeke.

He may have gotten yards but what someone fails to talk about is the number of TDs we scored through the running game...Zeke by himself pretty much quadrupled the number of rushing TDs by himself compared to what our complete rb squad did prior to us getting Zeke.

Of course any old RB behind that line would do as good, in la la land logic, why did they score 1/4 the TDs the year prior and why did all of our Back Up QBs suck so bad that a 4th round guy came in with Zeke and won Rookie of the Year. I mean the Oline was so good...should have been able to do so much better the year prior with more exp QBs and RBs

 

[Outlaw Heroes]

Zeke is a great player but he was suboptimaly acquired. This is irrefutable.

Not really. For you to establish that "he was suboptimaly acquired" you'd have to show that he could have been acquired in some other, optimal manner. Of course, you can't do this. The most you can do is try to construct an argument that we could have gotten an equivalent player in a cheaper fashion. And here you'll begin to have your doubters. It's rare that you can bring in a rookie and throw him out there right away because you know he isn't going to get your (rookie) QB killed. It's doubly rare that the rookie helps reestablish your team's identity as a smash-mouth football team while bringing a fun, playful attitude to the locker room.

Say what you will, but Ramsey simply did not have the impact last year that Zeke did. To use your terminology, this is irrefutable. And, frankly, it's unlikely that he'll have the impact during his first contract that Zeke will have. At the end of the day, your argument relies on the belief that Ramsey will outperform Zeke over the course of their second and third contracts. That's likely to be true, but it doesn't end the discussion. A team can rationally choose to optimize first contract value, if it's significant enough, at the expense of second and third contract value. In today's NFL, doing so may in fact be a key to maintaining salary cost control.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

IF Ramsey was a INT monster in College to go with everything else...I could understand it. However he was not.
IF there was a top end can't miss DE to take over Zeke..I could understand it, however Bosa was taken before our pick so even if you thought he was going to be a beast, and the majority did not, I could again understand it.

And PLEASE do not bring up what A one season McFadden did for our team prior to us getting Zeke.

He may have gotten yards but what someone fails to talk about is the number of TDs we scored through the running game...Zeke by himself pretty much quadrupled the number of rushing TDs by himself compared to what our complete rb squad did prior to us getting Zeke.

Of course any old RB behind that line would do as good, in la la land logic, why did they score 1/4 the TDs the year prior and why did all of our Back Up QBs suck so bad that a 4th round guy came in with Zeke and won Rookie of the Year. I mean the Oline was so good...should have been able to do so much better the year prior with more exp QBs and RBs

Zeke is not scoring all the tds he did in 2016 in 2015. That'd a joke argument.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

Not really. For you to establish that "he was suboptimaly acquired" you'd have to show that he could have been acquired in some other, optimal manner.

That's not true. Zeke due to his talent was always going to go too high relative to the value of the position. There was no optimal way to acquire Zeke, all that was left to decide was who was going to turn down the option of getting a cheap cost controlled player at a position of great value verses who was going to get an expensive player at a position of lesser value. Turns out it was us.

Of course, you can't do this. The most you can do is try to construct an argument that we could have gotten an equivalent player in a cheaper fashion.

Which recent history (2014 and 2015) and this thread shows routinely happens and quite easily I might add.

And here you'll begin to have your doubters. It's rare that you can bring in a rookie and throw him out there right away because you know he isn't going to get your (rookie) QB killed. It's doubly rare that the rookie helps reestablish your team's identity as a smash-mouth football team while bringing a fun, playful attitude to the locker room.

Why did we need a rookie? In one of the worst passing offenses in the modern era we had a previously washed up veteran average 4.6 yards per carry.

Say what you will, but Ramsey simply did not have the impact last year that Zeke did. To use your terminology, this is irrefutable.

You actually cannot say that irrefutably. We know we would have gotten great rushing production with or without Zeke. His impact then is what excess production he generated. That's impossible to know precisely but easy to argue the excess production was "not much." Again using 2014 and 2015 as a guide.

And in a season where we lost in the playoffs due to our inability to cover.....what's the imapct in adding a supreme talent that pushes everyone down in the pecking order. Ramsey is on a team's number 1 instead of Mo/Carr. Mo/Carr are now on a team's 2 and 3 WR instead of the 1 and 2. Brown is given easier assignments as well. Mo getting injured less of a big deal. Etc etc.

As you can see there is nothing irrefutable here.

And, frankly, it's unlikely that he'll have the impact during his first contract that Zeke will have.

This reads as though you think RBs have bigger impacts than DBs. Free agency and average contracts of the positions simply disagree with you.

At the end of the day, your argument relies on the belief that Ramsey will outperform Zeke over the course of their second and third contracts. That's likely to be true, but it doesn't end the discussion. A team can rationally choose to optimize first contract value, if it's significant enough, at the expense of second and third contract value. In today's NFL, doing so may in fact be a key to maintaining salary cost control.

This assumes you think the team is going to walk away from a 26 year old Zeke looking to reset the RB market. What do you think the likelihood of that is? Between slim and none right?

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

Zeke is not scoring all the tds he did in 2016 in 2015. That'd a joke argument.

How can you prove he would not have? You can't and yet you talk about joke arguments in the face of reality that we made the best decision for this team in the draft when we took Zeke.

But lets say he does not make the same number...lets cut those in half.

Even even if he only scored HALF of his total the year before this season...he still would have scored DOUBLE the number the WHOLE running back corps did.

I don't care what argument you make to me...I don't see a guy scoring 4 times the number of touch downs some how not being a difference to a team.

We drafted Zeke. He made a difference to this team whether you wish to acknowledge it or not, which it seems like you know he did but for the sake of your argument you don't want to admit it. We did not Draft Jalen Ramsey...sooner or later you need to quit crying over your own spilt milk. And of course quit turning Zeke threads into your chance to tell the world we should have not taken him as you have done so in multiple threads since he was drafted. We get it. Maybe you can put it in your sig line or as an avatar title...Look at me cry as I wanted Jalen instead of Zeke.

 

[Sydla]

How can you prove he would not have? You can't and yet you talk about joke arguments in the face of reality that we made the best decision for this team in the draft when we took Zeke.

But lets say he does not make the same number...lets cut those in half.

Even even if he only scored HALF of his total the year before this season...he still would have scored DOUBLE the number the WHOLE running back corps did.

I don't care what argument you make to me...I don't see a guy scoring 4 times the number of touch downs some how not being a difference to a team.

We drafted Zeke. He made a difference to this team whether you wish to acknowledge it or not, which it seems like you know he did but for the sake of your argument you don't want to admit it. We did not Draft Jalen Ramsey...sooner or later you need to quit crying over your own spilt milk. And of course quit turning Zeke threads into your chance to tell the world we should have not taken him as you have done so in multiple threads since he was drafted. We get it. Maybe you can put it in your sig line or as an avatar title...Look at me cry as I wanted Jalen instead of Zeke.

Because teams could load up against him since we had no QB play?

 

[Toruk_Makto]

How can you prove he would not have?

I cannot prove definitively somethign that would need an alternate universe to observe objectively.

However, I can use my eyes and brain and say our offense didn't suffer in 2015 because we weren't getting enough running back production. That should be self evident to anyone who has watched professional football for more than a season or two.

But lets say he does not make the same number...lets cut those in half.

Even even if he only scored HALF of his total the year before this season...he still would have scored DOUBLE the number the WHOLE running back corps did.

Random hypotheticals. Our offense in 2015 was not good. It was not the running back group's fault. I have no doubt that Zeke would have been more productive than Mcfadden. He's a better talent and player. My issue is your assertion that Zeke transformed the offense between 2015 and 2016 completely ignoring the obvious difference in QB play.

We drafted Zeke.

This is a true statement.

He made a difference to this team whether you wish to acknowledge it or not, which it seems like you know he did but for the sake of your argument you don't want to admit it.

Where have I said that Zeke was not a good...nay...great player for us? WHERE? I'm in a fantasy league where the buyin was increased to $10k from $5k last year. I took Zeke 7th overall last year. I knew he'd be productive. That is not at all the argument.

We did not Draft Jalen Ramsey...

This is a true statement.

sooner or later you need to quit crying over your own spilt milk.

My initial post in this thread did not bring up Jalen Ramsey at all. Others posters did. I engaged on the topic. Is that not allowed here?

And of course quit turning Zeke threads into your chance to tell the world we should have not taken him as you have done so in multiple threads since he was drafted. We get it. Maybe you can put it in your sig line or as an avatar title...Look at me cry as I wanted Jalen instead of Zeke.

Can't attack the message so attack the messenger?

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

Because teams could load up against him since we had no QB play?

They loaded up on him when going against an unproven 4th round QB that some felt should never have been drafted by the Cowboys vs some other VET QBs we has the year before.

Dak and Zeke work great together in conjunction with our Oline.

However you could make the same argument that if Dak only had McFadden as a RB for the whole year, he would not have been as good. That is if you could even get McFadden to have two consecutive years starting the whole year without getting time off for injury.

I would make the argument that if Zeke played the year prior...he would have been far and away the best RB on the roster and would have produced more yards and TDs and helped those QBs more than McFadden.

But that is not what this argument is really about.

What this argument is really about is one poster who has went into multiple threads over the years and complained about us taking Zeke or Ramsey and how In his not so humble opinion it was the wrong thing to do and he is making sure to let us know that multiple times even if people do not agree with him. THAT is what this is really about.

IF Dallas wanted to go cheaper, or lower in the draft, to get a RB...They could have did it during last years draft...they brought in plenty of RBs prior to that draft and yet did not draft one and decided to go with a player that had only spent one healthy season in the nfl (IIRC) in his career in McFadden.

And as has been proven...he, and the rest of the RB committee only scored around 4 rushing total touchdowns. He only actually scored 3 rushing TDs for us...want to know that highest number of Rushing TDs he has ever had in a season in his NFL Career....7.

Since being drafted in 2010 Darren McFadden has failed to rush for 10 TDs in a season.

More than doubled McFaddens best rushing total in his rookie season.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

Because teams could load up against him since we had no QB play?

Not only that but McFadden actually did face loaded boxes in 2015. We had QBs who couldn't punish teams and so out of great respect for the one functioning part of the offense (our rushing attack) teams gameplanned to take it away from us. And Darren still had an excellent season. All the more reason to acknowledge that our rushing game was not the problem that needed the 4th overall pick to correct.

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

I cannot prove definitively somethign that would need an alternate universe to observe objectively.

However, I can use my eyes and brain and say our offense didn't suffer in 2015 because we weren't getting enough running back production. That should be self evident to anyone who has watched professional football for more than a season or two.



Random hypotheticals. Our offense in 2015 was not good. It was not the running back group's fault. I have no doubt that Zeke would have been more productive than Mcfadden. He's a better talent and player. My issue is your assertion that Zeke transformed the offense between 2015 and 2016 completely ignoring the obvious difference in QB play.



This is a true statement.



Where have I said that Zeke was not a good...nay...great player for us? WHERE? I'm in a fantasy league where the buyin was increased to $10k from $5k last year. I took Zeke 7th overall last year. I knew he'd be productive. That is not at all the argument.



This is a true statement.



My initial post in this thread did not bring up Jalen Ramsey at all. Others posters did. I engaged on the topic. Is that not allowed here?


Can't attack the message so attack the messenger?

You are the one who has on multiple occastions in multiple thread brought up that YOU believe he was the wrong choice to be drafted by the cowboys.

YOUR first post in this thread starts to lay out your OWN argument that other RB could be taken at later draft spots and for fewer dollars. This is your argument as to why we should have taken
Jalen instead of Zeke...someone called you out on it mentioning Jalen because they too have seen how you have done so in multiple threads on multiple times.

So spare me the oh I am the victim I did not bring it up...when you did without even saying Jalen's name

So if the message is coming from same messenger over and over I will attack both message and the originator of the message aka the messenger.

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

Not only that but McFadden actually did face loaded boxes in 2015. We had QBs who couldn't punish teams and so out of great respect for the one functioning part of the offense (our rushing attack) teams gameplanned to take it away from us. And Darren still had an excellent season. All the more reason to acknowledge that our rushing game was not the problem that needed the 4th overall pick to correct.

3 Rushing Touchdowns is NOT an excellent season by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[JonJon]

Yeah but if Barry Sanders had that offensive line, he would have rushed for 2,000 yards after contact.

[/cowboy hater logic]

 

[ghst187]

Just one scout's opinion but in the breakout thread referencing Brown.... You should read what they wrote about Ramsey.

2 INTs 14 passes defenses plus 65 tackles
Vs 1600+ yards, 15 TDs rushing plus 300+ yards receiving and another TD.

The best Cb in the league isn't going to match the impact Zeke did for us. And we got similar impact with our sixth round CB pick

 

[Real1st]

Funny because i keep hearing about how great David Johnson is. He didn't even make the top 3.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

2 INTs 14 passes defenses plus 65 tackles
Vs 1600+ yards, 15 TDs rushing plus 300+ yards receiving and another TD.

The best Cb in the league isn't going to match the impact Zeke did for us. And we got similar impact with our sixth round CB pick

This isn't how you evaluate impact. The way presented here almost implies zero rb production if we didn't draft Zeke and that Ramsey' impact (or that of any cb) is simply their counting stats. That's just not how football works.

 

[Real1st]

Yes I think we should have taken Ramsey. BTW he played corner last year and shadowed the other team's number 1s.

But thanks for playing.

I like how you didn't address the actual cost implications of taking Zeke and paying through the nose for RB production that is unnecessary across the league and most certainly in our offense.

Ramsey has proven to be every bit as worthy of being a number 4th overall pick as Zeke has to this point. The difference is...Ramsey plays a more important position and his rookie contract represents a bargain for his position. Zeke plays a less important position and his rookie contract represents a premium for his position.

Guys this isn't rocket science.

The thing is im glad you are sitting in front of your computer desk and not a franchise offense desk. Yes Ramsey is your boy but you don't have to make yourself look silly to try to prove some minimal point.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Lot of variables, how many carries, is first contact at DL, LBs or DBs etc.

I just kinda go by the eye test, most of the time. If I see a guy and he's snapping guys back with regularity or breaking off anckles right and left, then I know he's a player.

JMO