Is Garrett getting a pass for lack of discipline?

[CowboyRoy]

I'm not apologizing, since the team is a contender and there's nothing to apologize for, but for once, you're right. This is axactly what I'd say. There's nothing whatsoever contradictory about it though. Lol.

If you arent an apologist then why did you come running? Guilty much? LOL

So when the Cowboys were a contender under Wade did that make him a great coach? I think not. And no doubt you were apologizing for your hero Garrett up and down two years ago when we were 4-12.

4-12 had nothing to do with Garrett, but according to you 13-3 does? Once again your flawed, biased logic comes to the fore.

Why are the Cowboys a contender again? Its because of the near unstoppable running game.

Oh wait, didnt you preach for years that it was a passing league and that running wasnt important? OOPS!!!!

And wait, werent you apologizing for Romo last year while I was telling you that Dak was the real deal and Romo wouldnt start another game for the Cowboys? OOOPS!!!

Maybe you should go back to the drawing board. Enjoy!!!

 

[Chuck 54]

The only way a coach, gm, or owner has any control at all is if they have a no tolerance policy and cut guys the minute their suspension is up.
No one would like that either.

 

[gimmesix]

http://www.espn.com/dallas/nfl/news/story?id=5995105

Jones has so much respect for Garrett that he stressed the new coach will make the final call on who is on the coaching staff and indicated there will not be a player on the 53-man roster he doesn't approve of.

"Jason will have the final say on any person that leaves the coaching staff or comes to the coaching staff," Jones said. "There won't be a player on this team that Jason does not want on the team."

Yes, I hate absolving Garrett for bringing in Hardy, Gregory and McClain. It's so easy for some to just throw the bad moves in Jerry's lap and give Garrett credit for only the good ones. This is a team effort, so they all deserve the blame and the credit.

BTW, I had no problems with any of those moves, and I'm OK with what we got out of McClain before he returned to his former ways. I don't fault any of the moves. I'm only saying if we're going to say someone is at fault for them then Garrett has to be lumped in with Jerry, Stephen, McClay, whatever scouts pushed for them and even Marinelli.

 

[CowboyRoy]

Yes, I hate absolving Garrett for bringing in Hardy, Gregory and McClain. It's so easy for some to just throw the bad moves in Jerry's lap and give Garrett credit for only the good ones. This is a team effort, so they all deserve the blame and the credit.

BTW, I had no problems with any of those moves, and I'm OK with what we got out of McClain before he returned to his former ways. I don't fault any of the moves. I'm only saying if we're going to say someone is at fault for them then Garrett has to be lumped in with Jerry, Stephen, McClay, whatever scouts pushed for them and even Marinelli.

LOL..........that quote is nothing more than window dressing. Jones drafts and signs who he wants. Garrett will have final say? Yah right.

Ok, so lets imagine that Garrett has to sign off on everyone. Then his RKG mantra is even more of a joke. Because none of those guys listed above are anything close to the RKG by any definition.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Problems with illegal substances? No worries. We'll get you the help you need.

Domestic abuse charges? Hey. Everybody makes mistakes. People deserve second chances in life.

Have some injury issues? We've got the best medical staff in sports. We'll turn those lemons into lemonade.

Emotional instability? We've got the best mentoring and handler program going. Good decision making is closer than you think.

Yes. Come to the Dallas Cowboys my friends. Your career in the NFL does not have to end just because you're locker room cancer or can't stay on the field. We'll put the "U" back in "YOU".

This message brought to you by "Jerry Wipes". Life is messy. Clean it up.

Ideologues such as yourself always make me laugh. How many times have we heard the Joneses say they take everyone on a case by case basis. For every Randy Gregory there is a Noah Spence. For every Greg Hardy there is a Frank Clark. The list goes on.

Then of course there are the examples that fly in the case of your ideology. Harvey Martin was a notorious woman beater. He was a top contributor on a championship team. Jimmy Smith was cut due to an early career injury history and went on to a be a perennial all pro at Jacksonville. Michael Irvin was injured early in his career, loved hookers and cocaine, and thank goodness we didn't follow your ideology. Alonzo Spellman and Charles Haley were both mentally ill and contributed.

They don't do the same thing categorically because they are able to evaluate case by case rather than take the easier dumbed down approach of categorical bias.

It is unfortunate but concepts such as redemption, forgiveness, and humility seem to be things of the past. At least the Cowboys seem to consider them.

 

[CowboyRoy]

Problems with illegal substances? No worries. We'll get you the help you need.

Domestic abuse charges? Hey. Everybody makes mistakes. People deserve second chances in life.

Have some injury issues? We've got the best medical staff in sports. We'll turn those lemons into lemonade.

Emotional instability? We've got the best mentoring and handler program going. Good decision making is closer than you think.

Yes. Come to the Dallas Cowboys my friends. Your career in the NFL does not have to end just because you're locker room cancer or can't stay on the field. We'll put the "U" back in "YOU".

This message brought to you by "Jerry Wipes". Life is messy. Clean it up.

Not only everything that you just said................but the worst part is even after these guys make multiple mistakes while they are here they are allowed to stay. Jerry Jones is even now trying to get the league to change its pot policy just so he can get Gregory reinstated.

 

[gimmesix]

LOL..........that quote is nothing more than window dressing. Jones drafts and signs who he wants. Garrett will have final say? Yah right.

Ok, so lets imagine that Garrett has to sign off on everyone. Then his RKG mantra is even more of a joke. Because none of those guys listed above are anything close to the RKG by any definition.

Signing off on everyone might be an exaggeration, but do you really believe that if Garrett is strongly against signing or drafting someone that Jerry is going to do it anyone? That goes against anything that has been said about how Jones operates since he hired Bill Parcells.

If Garrett had been against drafting Gregory, then Gregory would not be here. If he had been against the McClain and Hardy signings, they wouldn't have been signed. He might not have been standing on the table for Dallas to make those moves, but just because he might not have been pushing for them doesn't mean he bears no responsibility.

It's like when Dallas signed Terrell Owens. Those who hate everything Jerry Jones does (and never give him any of the credit) wanted to lay the blame completely at his feet and absolve Parcells of any guilt, while Parcells has said several times, including the one that I'm including, that he signed off on it.

Bill Parcells said Friday he's happy to have Terrell Owens on the Dallas Cowboys, even if it took him 48 days to say so.

"I say, 'I support it,' and that's the way we go," Parcells said. "I don't view it as a gamble. It's in my best interest that he's successful. And it's in his best interest that he's successful. ...

"I'm not approaching this with the idea it's going to be adversarial or I'm going to be mandating every little thing this player does," he added.

Parcells loves keeping a low profile in the offseason, but he took it to an extreme this year, especially with all the scrutiny surrounding the signing of Owens and questions about whether owner Jerry Jones truly made the move with his coach's consent.

Parcells mentioned several times that the decision to sign Owens was made by the team's entire front office, noting that picking players "is about a 50-50 proposition anyway."

"We work as a team here, we really do," he said. "We make decisions as an organization and we do it collectively, now more than ever. Whatever decision we make, we all support that. I support whatever decision we make as an organization. I was part of it, I continue to be part of it.

"Hey, now, I'm not going to say we don't have a difference of opinion on some things. Once we go, we're going. If we're wrong, we'll cut our losses and keep going," he said.

Now, Parcells said this while coaching the Cowboys, but he has maintained this same position since he left. I see no reason to believe the process isn't the same under Garrett.

 

[MileyDancer]

If you arent an apologist then why did you come running? Guilty much? LOL

So when the Cowboys were a contender under Wade did that make him a great coach? I think not. And no doubt you were apologizing for your hero Garrett up and down two years ago when we were 4-12.

4-12 had nothing to do with Garrett, but according to you 13-3 does? Once again your flawed, biased logic comes to the fore.

Why are the Cowboys a contender again? Its because of the near unstoppable running game.

Oh wait, didnt you preach for years that it was a passing league and that running wasnt important? OOPS!!!!

And wait, werent you apologizing for Romo last year while I was telling you that Dak was the real deal and Romo wouldnt start another game for the Cowboys? OOOPS!!!

Maybe you should go back to the drawing board. Enjoy!!!

 

[Idgit]

Problems with illegal substances? No worries. We'll get you the help you need.

Domestic abuse charges? Hey. Everybody makes mistakes. People deserve second chances in life.

Have some injury issues? We've got the best medical staff in sports. We'll turn those lemons into lemonade.

Emotional instability? We've got the best mentoring and handler program going. Good decision making is closer than you think.

Yes. Come to the Dallas Cowboys my friends. Your career in the NFL does not have to end just because you're locker room cancer or can't stay on the field. We'll put the "U" back in "YOU".

This message brought to you by "Jerry Wipes". Life is messy. Clean it up.

For context. Since 2002, all players, all positions, all fine and suspension incidents:

NFCE:
Philadelphia: 52 players ($6,894,940 in fines)
Dallas: 53 players suspended ($5,474,593 in fines)
New York Giants: 80 players ($2,444,366 in fines)
Washington: 81 players, ($10,311,378 in fines)

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/fines-suspensions/all-years/​

The sort function here doesn't lend itself for getting the data just for the Garrett regime, but since you're primarily targeting Jerry for criticism here, I don't suppose that matters all that much. Though the data is there if anybody wants to pull it from the 2nd half of 2010 onward.

And for point of comparison with what's generally considered to be the other top teams in the league during that time frame:

New England: 75 ($4,027,834 in fines)
Pittsburgh: 88 players ($4,242,408 in fines)
Green Bay: 64 players ($2,545,665 in fines)
Denver: 68 players ($8,275,388 in fines)
​

 

[Idgit]

If you arent an apologist then why did you come running? Guilty much? LOL

So when the Cowboys were a contender under Wade did that make him a great coach? I think not. And no doubt you were apologizing for your hero Garrett up and down two years ago when we were 4-12.

4-12 had nothing to do with Garrett, but according to you 13-3 does? Once again your flawed, biased logic comes to the fore.

Why are the Cowboys a contender again? Its because of the near unstoppable running game.

Oh wait, didnt you preach for years that it was a passing league and that running wasnt important? OOPS!!!!

And wait, werent you apologizing for Romo last year while I was telling you that Dak was the real deal and Romo wouldnt start another game for the Cowboys? OOOPS!!!

Maybe you should go back to the drawing board. Enjoy!!!

Let's stick to the topic here and not stray into the running game v. passing game, Tony v. Dak arguments (both of which you're misrepresenting here again, of course). We're a contender because our team wins a lot of games. We didn't contend in 2015 because the passing game was compromised fairly significantly and that's a big part of why we win a lot of games.

Wade was a decent HC and a good DC. He struggles with leading his teams in the long run because he struggles with discipline, and he was weak giving directions for building and maintaining his own roster. Overall, though, he won a fair amount of games in his three HC stops. .562 winning percentage as a HC, with two NFCE titles isn't all that bad. But he wasn't the right guy to handle either Jerry or the Dallas media in the long run.

 

[gimmesix]

Ideologues such as yourself always make me laugh. How many times have we heard the Joneses say they take everyone on a case by case basis. For every Randy Gregory there is a Noah Spence. For every Greg Hardy there is a Frank Clark. The list goes on.

Then of course there are the examples that fly in the case of your ideology. Harvey Martin was a notorious woman beater. He was a top contributor on a championship team. Jimmy Smith was cut due to an early career injury history and went on to a be a perennial all pro at Jacksonville. Michael Irvin was injured early in his career, loved hookers and cocaine, and thank goodness we didn't follow your ideology. Alonzo Spellman and Charles Haley were both mentally ill and contributed.

They don't do the same thing categorically because they are able to evaluate case by case rather than take the easier dumbed down approach of categorical bias.

It is unfortunate but concepts such as redemption, forgiveness, and humility seem to be things of the past. At least the Cowboys seem to consider them.

Not sure why fans don't understand that this is the reason teams keep taking chances on these kinds of players. If every bad egg in the league also turned out to be a bad player, then the decision would be easy. Instead, teams have to weigh the risk vs. the reward, talent vs. trouble. It would be hard for me to believe that any team doesn't vet these players before signing them or drafting them, but players lie, make promises they don't keep, etc. Some keep their issues underwraps enough to have careers like Randy Moss and Terrell Owens; others' careers are derailed before they ever get going. They are given a shot and fail ... as long as that shot comes at a reasonable cost, I see no problem with that.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

Yep, they are all desperate reaches by Jerry Jones to fill holes on defense and take short cuts. I would even venture to say that if Garrett actually had much of a say in personnel that none of those guys would have been drafted or signed to begin with. RKG is a great theory and policy, but its clear that the people that decide who plays for Dallas dont bother listening to Garrett.

I disagree, as you said, this was jerry jones dreaming again, meddling and thinking he found the missing peace. there is a definite RKG in dallas locker room with the type of players selected and added to the team. we have shown a tendency to draft team leaders, captains and do a good background check on players before drafting them. this year's crop is a great example. last year's crop was another good example, the same before that.... where we have taken gambles and mostly lost than won is in the second round, when first round talent often drops because of injuries (Smith, Lee) or behavior (Gregory, Lawrence). we have been really bad in the second round.

now, with that said, I can see the Gregory pick...being enticing and thinking, we will change him...he was top 10 talent. if not top 5. Greg Hardy was stupid. nobody touched him in the off season except dallas and he had a 5 game suspension on the books, prior to joining. that was defintley a Jerry jones pick, as he thought we are close. we are one DE away from superbowl and it was a one year deal.

not sure about McClain.... I think he needed to be on meds, talented. was good for short period, then he went nuts.

 

[visionary]

They are adults, they may lack maturity but they are adults. I would also agree Garrett does not have full say over who is drafted but then most teams are that way where no one person is making the picks alone that is why all teams have large operations in selecting of players with GM's, scouts and HC all involved.

I bet you wouldn't be making these excuses if Wade were the HC
It would be all about lack of discipline and accountability

 

[willia451]

For context. Since 2002, all players, all positions, all fine and suspension incidents:

NFCE:
Philadelphia: 52 players ($6,894,940 in fines)
Dallas: 53 players suspended ($5,474,593 in fines)
New York Giants: 80 players ($2,444,366 in fines)
Washington: 81 players, ($10,311,378 in fines)

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/fines-suspensions/all-years/​

The sort function here doesn't lend itself for getting the data just for the Garrett regime, but since you're primarily targeting Jerry for criticism here, I don't suppose that matters all that much. Though the data is there if anybody wants to pull it from the 2nd half of 2010 onward.

And for point of comparison with what's generally considered to be the other top teams in the league during that time frame:

New England: 75 ($4,027,834 in fines)
Pittsburgh: 88 players ($4,242,408 in fines)
Green Bay: 64 players ($2,545,665 in fines)
Denver: 68 players ($8,275,388 in fines)
​

Fake news. The world has not more time for statistics that can be skewed to mean anything you want them to mean.

Now if you'll excuse me. I need to go call Vlad for instructions.

 

[CowboyRoy]

Signing off on everyone might be an exaggeration, but do you really believe that if Garrett is strongly against signing or drafting someone that Jerry is going to do it anyone? That goes against anything that has been said about how Jones operates since he hired Bill Parcells.

If Garrett had been against drafting Gregory, then Gregory would not be here. If he had been against the McClain and Hardy signings, they wouldn't have been signed. He might not have been standing on the table for Dallas to make those moves, but just because he might not have been pushing for them doesn't mean he bears no responsibility.

It's like when Dallas signed Terrell Owens. Those who hate everything Jerry Jones does (and never give him any of the credit) wanted to lay the blame completely at his feet and absolve Parcells of any guilt, while Parcells has said several times, including the one that I'm including, that he signed off on it.



Now, Parcells said this while coaching the Cowboys, but he has maintained this same position since he left. I see no reason to believe the process isn't the same under Garrett.

I think Garrett gets to voice his opinion like anyone else and its taken into account. But ultimately the Jones' make the decisions. Do I think they run to Garrett and give him final say? 100% no way do I believe that. I dont think Garrett wanted Gregory. Jones would have been smart to listen to him. I think Jones would be better off listening to Garretts RKG mantra, but he doesnt.

 

[CowboyRoy]

Let's stick to the topic here and not stray into the running game v. passing game, Tony v. Dak arguments (both of which you're misrepresenting here again, of course). We're a contender because our team wins a lot of games. We didn't contend in 2015 because the passing game was compromised fairly significantly and that's a big part of why we win a lot of games.

Wade was a decent HC and a good DC. He struggles with leading his teams in the long run because he struggles with discipline, and he was weak giving directions for building and maintaining his own roster. Overall, though, he won a fair amount of games in his three HC stops. .562 winning percentage as a HC, with two NFCE titles isn't all that bad. But he wasn't the right guy to handle either Jerry or the Dallas media in the long run.

I can definitely agree with you on Wade. And To be honest, I defended Wade. Not to the extent you do with Garrett, but my premise was that Wade was a good head coach. Not great, but a solid one. I also agree he lacked sorely in leadership. But my god, Jones made him take on the green Garrett to run his offense. Great DC. I also freely admitted that I wanted him gone and we needed someone better leading this franchise.

The way you defend Garretts, its as if he is one of the top HC's in the NFL. If that is not your position then say so.

As far as why we have become a contender, IMHO, several reasons.

We always had the QB. I like Dak better, but they are both top notch. Defense has always been weak. So it has been the development of the run game and its dominance. And then the second thing is that Garrett was kicked to the curb by Jones as the guy leading the offense. Garrett is now doing the only thing he has is good at. Administrating, clapping, and being likeable and keeping the team together. Now I give credit to Garrett for choosing Linehan. But the play calling and the creativity of this offense under Linehan is night and day as compared when the hapless, panic stricken Garrett was calling the shots.

But lets be completely candid here. If Romo retired like he has and we didnt strike cold with Dak, this team would be back to 8-8 at best.

 

[Rockport]

If you arent an apologist then why did you come running? Guilty much? LOL

So when the Cowboys were a contender under Wade did that make him a great coach? I think not. And no doubt you were apologizing for your hero Garrett up and down two years ago when we were 4-12.

4-12 had nothing to do with Garrett, but according to you 13-3 does? Once again your flawed, biased logic comes to the fore.

Why are the Cowboys a contender again? Its because of the near unstoppable running game.

Oh wait, didnt you preach for years that it was a passing league and that running wasnt important? OOPS!!!!

And wait, werent you apologizing for Romo last year while I was telling you that Dak was the real deal and Romo wouldnt start another game for the Cowboys? OOOPS!!!

Maybe you should go back to the drawing board. Enjoy!!!

You are one of the most negative posters of all time here. And that's saying A LOT. You must be a secret Commander or Eagles fan.

 

[CowboyRoy]

I disagree, as you said, this was jerry jones dreaming again, meddling and thinking he found the missing peace. there is a definite RKG in dallas locker room with the type of players selected and added to the team. we have shown a tendency to draft team leaders, captains and do a good background check on players before drafting them. this year's crop is a great example. last year's crop was another good example, the same before that.... where we have taken gambles and mostly lost than won is in the second round, when first round talent often drops because of injuries (Smith, Lee) or behavior (Gregory, Lawrence). we have been really bad in the second round.

now, with that said, I can see the Gregory pick...being enticing and thinking, we will change him...he was top 10 talent. if not top 5. Greg Hardy was stupid. nobody touched him in the off season except dallas and he had a 5 game suspension on the books, prior to joining. that was defintley a Jerry jones pick, as he thought we are close. we are one DE away from superbowl and it was a one year deal.

not sure about McClain.... I think he needed to be on meds, talented. was good for short period, then he went nuts.

Plenty of RKG's on the team no doubt. Its the little risks here and there for behavior that are the issue. And I dont think that is Garrett wanting those. I dont think Garrett would want any of those guys. And I was jumping for joy when they selected Gregory. He was the guy I was looking most forward to. But I had no idea the guy was a mental case that couldnt stop smoking pot. They knew that and they drafted him anyway.

 

[noshame]

Jerruh is finally maturing at the ripe old age of whatever it is.

He's just ripe, period.

 

[Trouty]

He's just ripe, period.