Is it the coaching or the roster?

[Matts4313]

I did, its on page 1. Its the roster. And its pretty terrible.

MB3 sucked. Claiming that he was a talent that was left for Garrett is silly, because he wasnt a good player.

Wade also left him Kevin Ogletree... Why not bring that up as a "Talent" that Phillips left him.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Funny two examples there considering we all heard Garrett on Hard Knocks arguing to Jerry that we didn't need an everydown back because we already had such a good one in MB3. And Kevin Ogletree? He was a Garrett pet all the way, going back to when John coached him at Virginia.

As for the drafting improving so drastically... Has Jason had a draft as good as the one that gave us arguably our two best players on the team right now, Dez and Sean Lee? And how's that Claiborne draft looking this year?

But that supposes that the head coach runs the draft anyway... Which I don't believe.

 

[Galian Beast]

Since Garrett got here he has never really been creative. He doesn't design his offense to highlight the talents of his players.

Everyone wanted to use Felix Jones and Lance Dunbar like Westbrook and Sproles... never happened though.

He made MB3 an every down back when he was clearly a closer.

He had the receivers complaining that they weren't getting the ball enough in 2008. And that absolutely was the case. I'm not sure if it is Witten and Romo or if it is Garrett or a combination of them, but we don't highlight wide receivers nearly enough.

Entirely too many checkdowns, but not in a way like Sproles or Westbrook that tends to get a large amount of yards after the carry.

Garrett has never been able to do anything about the blitz and 2 man under. We were actually able to beat it for a while when Murray was healthy and Garrett was willing to run the ball and teams were forced out of it, but that was short lived.

 

[TrailBlazer]

I did, its on page 1. Its the roster. And its pretty terrible.

MB3 sucked. Claiming that he was a talent that was left for Garrett is silly, because he wasnt a good player.

Wade also left him Kevin Ogletree... Why not bring that up as a "Talent" that Phillips left him.

MB3 was drafted by Parcells anyway. Not wade. Just seeing if you'd catch it.

JG has nothing on wade when it comes to success, yet. It is not even comparable really. We're not gonna agree on this bc you a Garrett apologist so lets move on..

 

[Matts4313]

more like a realist. I'm not saying Garrett is HOF bound and I absolutly think his inexperience has cost us a few games. But Garrett alone is not the point of the thread. I think we have a solid group of coaches as a whole. In terms of experience and prior success, we have a very good staff.

I think our talent level is way over exaggerated. Its getting better, but its still not at the level that the fans try to talk about.

 

[Matts4313]

Since Garrett got here he has never really been creative. He doesn't design his offense to highlight the talents of his players.

Everyone wanted to use Felix Jones and Lance Dunbar like Westbrook and Sproles... never happened though.

He made MB3 an every down back when he was clearly a closer.

He had the receivers complaining that they weren't getting the ball enough in 2008. And that absolutely was the case. I'm not sure if it is Witten and Romo or if it is Garrett or a combination of them, but we don't highlight wide receivers nearly enough.

Entirely too many checkdowns, but not in a way like Sproles or Westbrook that tends to get a large amount of yards after the carry.

Garrett has never been able to do anything about the blitz and 2 man under. We were actually able to beat it for a while when Murray was healthy and Garrett was willing to run the ball and teams were forced out of it, but that was short lived.

this is a prime example of what I'm talking about. You know these players went on to other teams right? And they sucked there too? Maybe it wasn't a misuse of Jones and Barber, maybe they were just crappy players.

 

[Matts4313]

Funny two examples there considering we all heard Garrett on Hard Knocks arguing to Jerry that we didn't need an everydown back because we already had such a good one in MB3. And Kevin Ogletree? He was a Garrett pet all the way, going back to when John coached him at Virginia.

As for the drafting improving so drastically... Has Jason had a draft as good as the one that gave us arguably our two best players on the team right now, Dez and Sean Lee? And how's that Claiborne draft looking this year?

But that supposes that the head coach runs the draft anyway... Which I don't believe.

you dont think the HC has input as to the type of players we go after? The general skillset/personality/etc? Some coaches want speed guys... Some want power guys..etc. The coach has no input in that?


and if you are "blaming" Garrett for Jones, than surely you give him credit for the development of Bryant. Right?

 

[khiladi]

dude... There are like 5 people that were on both those rosters..
how are you not getting this? By the time wade left, the talent was gone too. Unlike teams like the cheifs, that had a lot of talent but a terrible coach.

So you saying a 2-14 team was indicative of talent? A team that was 32nd in the league in scoring and 25th in the league in allowing yards?

 

[Matts4313]

So you saying a 2-14 team was indicative of talent? A team that was 32nd in the league in scoring and 25th in the league in allowing yards?

I'm saying the cheofs sucked because the HC was terrible and lost its team, tthere were a ton of injuries and historically bad QB play.

but they had a ton of talent.

you replace the QB, HC and get healthy and all of the sudden they are good.

put it this way, the Cheifs have about 7-8 players who would be upgrades to our team, some of them huge upgrades.

 

[khiladi]

So Alex Smith is a great QB, better than Romo, so much so that he can improve a team to undefeated status? What's their roster TO from last year to this year?

 

[khiladi]

you dont think the HC has input as to the type of players we go after? The general skillset/personality/etc? Some coaches want speed guys... Some want power guys..etc. The coach has no input in that?


and if you are "blaming" Garrett for Jones, than surely you give him credit for the development of Bryant. Right?

People are telling us Dez Bryant doesn't run his routes properly... Last year, Dez's explosion came when Dallas "abandoned" it's playbook and went up-tempo. Even when Dez went all-world last half of the season, Dallas was still abysmal in first half offense and scoring, meaning their game-plan as a result of a week's worth of planning was abandoned.. The game-plan JG drew up...

 

[khiladi]

this is a prime example of what I'm talking about. You know these players went on to other teams right? And they sucked there too? Maybe it wasn't a misuse of Jones and Barber, maybe they were just crappy players.

Felix Jones was whom Garrett wanted. As far as Barber, a RBs life-span is normally 4-5 good years. But he was never a all-time back, which is what Garrett wanted... Additionally, much of Barber's yards was essentially breaking tackles, cause JG couldn't draw up basic run blocking schemes. You cold' count the amount of times, lineman broke through and hit him from behind the LOS. Hell, that continued even with JG as HC.

 

[Matts4313]

Felix Jones was whom Garrett wanted. As far as Barber, a RBs life-span is normally 4-5 good years. But he was never a all-time back, which is what Garrett wanted... Additionally, much of Barber's yards was essentially breaking tackles, cause JG couldn't draw up basic run blocking schemes. You cold' count the amount of times, lineman broke through and hit him from behind the LOS. Hell, that continued even with JG as HC.

So you are then saying Felix was an "All Time Back"?

Humor me, could the reason the running game sucked have anything to do with the quality of running back and the OL? Or were all the amazing stars - WHICH CANT MAKE IT ON ANY ROSTER IN THE NFL - perhaps a tad over hyped?

 

[Matts4313]

So Alex Smith is a great QB, better than Romo, so much so that he can improve a team to undefeated status? What's their roster TO from last year to this year?

A: I dont really know what the heck you are talking about here.
B: There wasnt much turn over
C: Do you honestly even watch NFL outstide of the Cowboys?

The last ~5 teams the cheifs beat have *ALL* been against back up QBs. That has a tad bit to do with their undefeated record. Another part? They have a good head coach and a lot of talent.
Seriously - take a minute to look at their roster:

Smith - decent game manager
Charles - one of the best RBs in the NFL
Bowe - probowl WR
Mckluster - killer return man
OL - Seriously stacked.
DL - See above
LB - 3 out of the 4 are all pro material
CB - The CB they deemed *BETTER* than Carr
Eric Berry - the once in a life time Safety prospect?

That is a truly young, talented roster. Its why so many people predicted they would turn it around quickly. That team was banged up and quit on their HC last year. It had nothing to do with their talent level.

 

[Alexander]

A: I dont really know what the heck you are talking about here.
B: There wasnt much turn over

http://espn.go.com/blog/kansas-city...nal-numbers-show-considerable-roster-turnover

30 players out of the final 53 on opening day is not "much turnover"?

C: Do you honestly even watch NFL outstide of the Cowboys?

Given your statement above you really should be asking that question of yourself.

 

[Matts4313]

http://espn.go.com/blog/kansas-city...nal-numbers-show-considerable-roster-turnover

30 players out of the final 53 on opening day is not "much turnover"?



Given your statement above you really should be asking that question of yourself.

How many starters? Key contributors?..You know.. they guys on the field?

QB, obviously different
RB - Same
#1, #2 & #3 WR - Same
TE - Different
OL - 3 out of the 5 the same, Fisher was the #2 (?) overall to replace one of the tackles
DL - one new starter - Jackson and Poe still there
LB - Hali, Johnson, Houston still there... 3 of their best players
DBs - Flowers, Berry, Lewis all returned.


Sure - they chruned the bottom of the roster. But the talented, allpro/probowl type players that were there before are still there today. Thats what I mean about little turnover.

 

[Matts4313]

By the way - I thought I read that we have done =>28<= roster moves since May...... AT THE DL POSITION ALONE.

 

[Alexander]

How many starters?

Nine of twenty-two starters on opening day as stated in the article.

Key contributors?..You know.. they guys on the field?

QB, obviously different
RB - Same
#1, #2 & #3 WR - Same

Incorrect. New fullback in Anthony Sherman who was acquired from Arizona. Donnie Avery, their #2 WR was with the Colts last season.

Sure - they chruned the bottom of the roster. But the talented, allpro/probowl type players that were there before are still there today. Thats what I mean about little turnover.

Replacing nearly half of the 53 man roster is not "little turnover", "not much turnover" or anything nearly as insignificant as you want to point out.

You started this thread looking at the whole roster, now you want to change the parameters?

The "talented, allpro/probowl type players" projected to be on this roster starting the season were Romo, Ware, Austin, Bryant, Witten, Spencer, Free, Ratliff and Lee were all with the Cowboys in 2010.

 

[Alexander]

By the way - I thought I read that we have done =>28<= roster moves since May...... AT THE DL POSITION ALONE.

And all because of injuries and bad contracts.

 

[Matts4313]

Snip.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I think the core of the chiefs, and the bulk of the people that start for them, were on the roster last year. Literally every big name player, which they have a lot of, was already there. They added a good HC, a better (though not great) QB and became competitive. Their record is inflated, but they are a good team with a lot of young talented players.

As for your second comment - Lee and Bryant were developed under Garrett. They started a combined 2 games under Phillips. Ratliff, Spencer and Austin are gone or will be soon. So out of your list, the people that are here contributing that were not developed by Garrett, are Romo, Ware, Witten, Free (and hatcher, who you missed). Of those, two are injured and another graded out as one of the worst OL in football last year.

Your right, thats totally the same is walking into a team that has a stacked OL/DL, tremendous RB, Top 10 CB and S, very good WR, Arguably the best LB core in the NFL **AND** a top 5 draft pick.

How did I not see that Reid and Redball were dealing with the same cards.