IS QB a failure if they never win a SB?

[Vtwin]

Everything was in place? LOL that team had not made the playoffs in over 10 years and only had one winning season over that span. What they needed was the greatest QB to ever play all right.

As far as last year goes they lost by 3 in the divisional round to the eventual super bowl champs. Not too bad for an off year for a 45 year old guy.

Look I have hated Brady more than anyone over the years but you simply can no longer say anything about the man except that he is the GOAT. Perhaps even the GOAT of all GOATS.

Yes. Everything in place.

What happened ten years ago has no bearing on what happens today in the NFL. You should take a closer look at that Bucs team the year before Brady arrived. They were lighting it up. The QB almost single handedly cost them their success with his record setting interceptions, which also put the defense in a tough spot. All they needed to compete was a QB.

You're coming at me like I'm dissing Brady. I clearly said I wasn't. I'm just giving Belichick his proper credit for the role he played in the Patriots unprecedented success.

Maybe Bucs Brady isn't even the Brady we know if not for all that time working with Belichick.

You're not giving the coach enough credit.

 

[Reid1boys]

The sustained success New England had was due to the greatness of Belichick combined with the greatness of Brady. While I don't believe either achieves what they did without the other, that in no way takes away from the individual greatness each possess.

NFL history is full of examples of great coaches who had periods of limited success and great QB's who never won a championship.

You must be a younger fella. How far back do your NFL recollections go?

Oh, and, Belichick is doing OK so far in the post Brady era with a rookie/2nd year QB, a third string backup and nowhere near the roster he has had in the past. He is a great coach. Right up there with the best of the best.

Young fella....lol

I guess you havent heard my diatribes before. Coaches become great, and only become great when they got the right QB to latch on to. The It is the RARE "Great Coach," That had any real success with multiple QBs.

Start naming them.

Bellichek is doing exactly what gets everyone ese fired. Doing "Ok,"... didnt JG do Ok?
The ng=fl trash heap is FULL of coaches that did OK.

Peyton was smart. He got the hell out of camp right as he was about to suck also.
Coaches ride the qb, not the other way around.

I predicted both Tomlin and Billy boys success rate pretty well post HOF qbs. They are just another coach.... only great in your mind because of past success.

George Seifert was a GREAT coach... all time win % in NFL history with his great QBs. Then he flew over to Carolina to coach and got amnesia.

 

[Reid1boys]

No.. not unless you consider every player who was a high draft pick and never wins a SB a bust. Yours is a horribly flawed premise. Anybody who gets to the NFL and lasts 10 seasons is a success.. championship or no..

Please go back to my original post and show me ANY premise I had? Mine was 100% a question posed to see how others view things.

 

[Ranched]

A team doesn't need a good quarterback to win championships. The proofs in the pudding! Here's a list of the worst quarterbacks to win a Superbowl.

Mark Rypien
Ken Stabler
Nick Foles
Brad Johnson
Jeff Hostetler
Doug Williams
Jim McMahon
Trent Dilfer
Jim Plunkett

Quarterbacks don't win championships, defenses do!

 

[RonnieT24]

Young fella....lol

I guess you havent heard my diatribes before. Coaches become great, and only become great when they got the right QB to latch on to. The It is the RARE "Great Coach," That had any real success with multiple QBs.

Start naming them.

Ask and ye shall receive..

Don Shula - Went to the Super Bowl with four different QBs.. Unitas/Morral, Griese, Woodley and Marino.
Joe Gibbs - Won the Super Bowl with three different QBs.. Theisman, Williams, and Rypien
Tom Landry - Went to the Super Bowl with two different QBs Morton and Staubach
Bill Parcells - Won the Super Bowl with two different QBs.. Simms and Hostetler
Andy Reid - Went to the Super Bowl with two different QBs. McNabb and Mahomes
Mike Holmgren - Went to the Super Bowl with two different QBs Favre and Hasselbeck
Dan Reeves - Went to the Super Bowl with two different QBs.. Elway and Chandler
Sean McVey - Went to the Super Bowl with two different QBs.. Goff and Stafford.

That's the list off the top of my head.. Maybe there's something to these great coaches who DON'T ride the coattails of a great QB for success. Granted there aren't a ton of them... but there have been a few..

Bellichek is doing exactly what gets everyone ese fired. Doing "Ok,"... didnt JG do Ok?
The ng=fl trash heap is FULL of coaches that did OK.

Peyton was smart. He got the hell out of camp right as he was about to suck also.
Coaches ride the qb, not the other way around.

I predicted both Tomlin and Billy boys success rate pretty well post HOF qbs. They are just another coach.... only great in your mind because of past success.

George Seifert was a GREAT coach... all time win % in NFL history with his great QBs. Then he flew over to Carolina to coach and got amnesia.

Seifert inherited a team that had just won the Super Bowl and was stocked with Hall of Fame talent.. Frankly I never thought much of him as a coach.. Great DC.. but without Montana and Young he might have been a skinnier Wade Phillips. Oh yeah.. he took two different QBs to the Super Bowl too though..

 

[RonnieT24]

Please go back to my original post and show me ANY premise I had? Mine was 100% a question posed to see how others view things.

Okay if not the premise then the question is flawed because it intimates that any single metric can possibly be used to define a player as a success or failure. It can't. But indeed others may view it differently, however incorrect they may be!

 

[Reid1boys]

Ask and ye shall receive..

Don Shula - Went to the Super Bowl with four different QBs.. Unitas/Morral, Griese, Woodley and Marino.
Joe Gibbs - Won the Super Bowl with three different QBs.. Theisman, WI looked some of this up... im not Die Hrad Blilliams, and Rypien
Tom Landry - Went to the Super Bowl with two different QBs Morton and Staubach
Bill Parcells - Won the Super Bowl with two different QBs.. Simms and Hostetler
Andy Reid - Went to the Super Bowl with two different QBs. McNabb and Mahomes
Mike Holmgren - Went to the Super Bowl with two different QBs Favre and Hasselbeck
Dan Reeves - Went to the Super Bowl with two different QBs.. Elway and Chandler
Sean McVey - Went to the Super Bowl with two different QBs.. Goff and Stafford.

That's the list off the top of my head.. Maybe there's something to these great coaches who DON'T ride the coattails of a great QB for success. Granted there aren't a ton of them... but there have been a few..




Seifert inherited a team that had just won the Super Bowl and was stocked with Hall of Fame talent.. Frankly I never thought much of him as a coach.. Great DC.. but without Montana and Young he might have been a skinnier Wade Phillips. Oh yeah.. he took two different QBs to the Super Bowl too though..

I actually didnt ask... but since you posted.
I looked some of this up. IM not as old as Diehard Blues or Coachcoach afterall.

Morall was the league MVP in one of those years. Unitas and Griese are both in the HOF.
Gibbs is the true standout,,,, but Theisman led the Commanders to the NFL record for Points scored in a season,
Landry.... really? Staubach is as good as any QNB That ever plaed. If he played today hed be easily as good as Mahomes.
Parcells with Simms had one of the greatest defensive players and units of the 80s.
Reid... Mahomes...lolHow was he doing in Philly after his all pro qb retired (helps my point)
Holmgren Favre??? lol.. again, bad choice
Reeves... again, one of the greatest QBs to ever lace them up
McVey an interesting one. Lets see how he does.

Once again, there are ALWAYS examples... just like I can post more examples of "Great," coaches that did jack squat without a HOF qb...... Tomlin and Billy Boy are ringing true right now.

 

[Diehardblues]

Of course he is not a lock but he is the single biggest upgrade that any team could ever have in the history of football. I know that given the first overall pick and you can pick anyone in history there are people on this board that would pick Zeke but I for one would swallow my pride, pick Brady and enjoy beating the crap out of everyone for the next 25 years.

Of course we’d take Brady . But the HOF QB/HC duo with Bill is what made that so successful. Put him in Cleveland for example and maybe not as much.

I’m sure Jethro would have found a way to screw it up as well. Lol

 

[Diehardblues]

but that was the question, newton was MVP and Gannon was MVP....to me its about being a high level player over and extended period. not catch lighting in a bottle because you were in the right place at the right time...

were they good enough to be part of a team that could win it? obviously. but you build around a great QB as the center piece, you may or may not win it. but you have a good QB and you know you have to have a lot more to win it, again you may or may not. in the end, its the team, not the individual. we can all argue about contribution.

and I agree, there is a difference between a franchise QB and an Elite QB. and I 100% agree at anytime there are at most 5 elite QBs, some come close, but most often most years, probably 2,3 elite.....right now we maybe at an age of renaissance of QBs, with Brady, Rodgers, Mahomes, Allen and some may argue stafford, Burrow...I think Herbert is knocking at the door.

my opinion, the first 4 are elite and rest are close.

Yep

And the closer you can find to Elite the easier it is to build around . And that’s what most of the league is dealt with unfortunately.

 

[Reid1boys]

Of course we’d take Brady . But the HOF QB/HC duo with Bill is what made that so successful. Put him in Cleveland for example and maybe not as much.

I’m sure Jethro would have found a way to screw it up as well. Lol

sure.... put him in Tampa, a team that hadnt even SNIFFED the playoffs for 11 straight years and he shows up and wala... SB win.

Well, Brady did also have the great Bruce Arians to help him out as well. Hes right up there with Billy.

 

[jgboys1]

No and Dak will never be a bust

You are correct. Not a Dak fan at all but when you take a QB in the 4th round you really don't expect much from him, Tom brady being the exception. Dak exceeded those expectations but I still don't think he is good enough to win a super bowl.

 

[Diehardblues]

sure.... put him in Tampa, a team that hadnt even SNIFFED the playoffs for 11 straight years and he shows up and wala... SB win.

Well, Brady did also have the great Bruce Arians to help him out as well. Hes right up there with Billy.

Tampa also has a solid defense and Bucs brought some key talent in as well.

 

[Reid1boys]

Tampa also has a solid defense and Bucs brought some key talent in as well.

yea yea yea... IM sure in the previous 11 season they never brought in any talent and they had a bottom 3 defense every year.....lol.

 

[Whirlwin]

IM asking what people think, not what those qbs think.

It couldn’t be any clearer than what Wrenching said. No teams win championships not players. Anybody who doesn’t believe this doesn’t understand the first thing about football. This shouldn’t even be a question

 

[Whirlwin]

No and Dak will never be a bust

Another OP, with an agenda. Just can’t talk football. Had to slam somebody

 

[RonnieT24]

I actually didnt ask... but since you posted.

Yes you did.. you said "start naming them.."

I looked some of this up. IM not as old as Diehard Blues or Coachcoach afterall.

Morall was the league MVP in one of those years. Unitas and Griese are both in the HOF.
Gibbs is the true standout,,,, but Theisman led the Football Team to the NFL record for Points scored in a season,
Landry.... really? Staubach is as good as any QNB That ever plaed. If he played today hed be easily as good as Mahomes.
Parcells with Simms had one of the greatest defensive players and units of the 80s.
Reid... Mahomes...lolHow was he doing in Philly after his all pro qb retired (helps my point)
Holmgren Favre??? lol.. again, bad choice
Reeves... again, one of the greatest QBs to ever lace them up
McVey an interesting one. Lets see how he does.

Once again, there are ALWAYS examples... just like I can post more examples of "Great," coaches that did jack squat without a HOF qb...... Tomlin and Billy Boy are ringing true right now.

I know it's a rare coach who can get it done with great QBs or backup QBs.. Because they were/are great coaches. People who credit Brady with all the Pats success need to look at the defensive rankings of the teams he won it with. Those defenses were outstanding.. I believe #1 overall like 7-8 times and top 10 in something like 15 of his 20 years there. Yes Brady was/is great.. but let's face it.. a lot of times he didn't need to be.. Many many teams have shown they can take "okay" QB play, pair it with great defense and win it all. If Belichick can build another one of those defenses.. he will join that list.. But truth be told, he already should be on it.. because Brady was nowhere near as good in their first set of championships as he became in their second. His overall numbers were pretty pedestrian until 2007. Brady can be credited for carrying the Pats post 2007.. but before that.. the Pats, particularly the defense, carried him.. Look at their scoring defense rankings in the championship years.


2001 - #6
2003 - #1
2004 - #2
2014 - #8
2016 - #1
2018 - #7

In the years they lost in the Super Bowl the defenses were:

2007 - #4
2011 - #15
2017 - #5

Oh and in Tampa..

2020 - #8
2021 - #5
2020 - #6



So in his career Brady was able to "carry" exactly one defense that was not top 8 to the Super Bowl. At some point folks need to acknowledge he's had the luxury of playing with great defenses year and year out. Not that there is anything wrong with that. But we minimize Eli's two championship rings because "the defense carried him.." Yet look at the rankings of HIS two championship defenses..

2007 - #17
2011 - #25

I'll just go head and leave that right there..

 

[nobody]

No and Dak will never be a bust

But he'll likely never be the solution and sniff a title either sadly.

 

[Vtwin]

Young fella....lol

I guess you havent heard my diatribes before. Coaches become great, and only become great when they got the right QB to latch on to. The It is the RARE "Great Coach," That had any real success with multiple QBs.

Start naming them.

Bellichek is doing exactly what gets everyone ese fired. Doing "Ok,"... didnt JG do Ok?
The ng=fl trash heap is FULL of coaches that did OK.

Peyton was smart. He got the hell out of camp right as he was about to suck also.
Coaches ride the qb, not the other way around.

I predicted both Tomlin and Billy boys success rate pretty well post HOF qbs. They are just another coach.... only great in your mind because of past success.

George Seifert was a GREAT coach... all time win % in NFL history with his great QBs. Then he flew over to Carolina to coach and got amnesia.

You oversimplify this. You seem to be equating great coaching with winning championships as the end all be all. Any coach needs some great players to win championships. No coach can take a mediocre roster and win championships.

Expecting a very successful coach to just turn around a team with a rookie QB and a depleted roster in one season or two seasons is expecting to much. It just doesn't work that way. Nor does moving to a different franchise and expecting the same thing.

A great coach coaches to put his players in a position to succeed. Much easier of course when he has elite players but it doesn't make him any less of a coach if he gets the best out of the roster he has. A lesser coach with a great team can certainly be more successful than a great coach with a lesser team.

It's a symbiotic relationship and the Belichick Brady partnership epitomizes that.

Belichick was instrumental in every SB Brady won. Especially the early ones. As was Brady, more so as he developed.

 

[Diehardblues]

yea yea yea... IM sure in the previous 11 season they never brought in any talent and they had a bottom 3 defense every year.....lol.

I agree they hadn’t brought in any talent in previous seasons but they did when they brought Brady in who no doubt made a tremendous difference .

But as we saw last year and it appears so far this year it’s not enough without all of the stronger support cast and coaching.

Just like we’ve seen with Rodgers , he only had enough talent one season so far to win a championship.

Do these Elite QB’s make it easier to build around . Of course but it takes more than just that.

 

[Cowpolk]

Another OP, with an agenda. Just can’t talk football. Had to slam somebody

Who did I slam? All I did was make a comment Looks like you did the slam job to me