Just say "NO" to converting a DE to OLB...

[Hostile]

Exactly. I have been a Carpenter fan for awhile, but the thing I realized today is that if he is the guy that fits what Dallas wants to do best then take him at 18 and don't worry if he is "25" on some board.

Carpenter is rising and I am pretty sure he goes in 1 right now. If Dallas passes, I'd be surprised if he gets past NE, either NY team or Pitt.

For those that think Greenway is a fit.....no. I think he is a Derrick Brooks Cover 2 weakside backer all the way. If you want a guy that "anchors" and is strong at the point of attack, look away from Greenway.

If we know we can trade down and still get him like we did in 2002 with Roy Williams moving from 6 to 8, then we should do it. If we can't then we should simply take him.

This kid has a great football motor.

He can play SOLB or ILB.

He's smart. (Vastly underrated by too many people.)

He can cover TEs.

He's strong against the run.

He can rush the passer.

He's got size and is football fast.

He has my favorite...pedigree. Quit groaning you 8-balls. :

 

[Hostile]

The only problem I have with Carpenter (I do like Carpenter by the way) is that his stats were not very good for a traditional OLB. I don't understand how he came down with only 49 tackles playing in a 4-3 (I think) and his counterpart had nearly 3 times the tackles.
I just can't get past that.

Al Singleton's stats weren't geat for a traditional OLB either. How'd our defense do after he went down?

Some things cannot be translated into stats. I'll say that until I die or people start to see what I mean.

 

[cleverusername]

I think the negatives on these guys holding up at the point of attack or fighting through blocks is looking at them as undersized DEs...I'm sure a 230 lb OLB would also have problems taking on OLmen and fighting through blocks.

I think a guy with speed like Lawson could hold up pretty well in coverage of RBs.

He's also got more height and reach than most LB's. This, together with his speed, might help him in coverage if he had to "catch up". Could be good at batting down balls. And, if he caught one every once in awhile .

 

[Clove]

Al Singleton's stats weren't geat for a traditional OLB either. How'd our defense do after he went down?

Some things cannot be translated into stats. I'll say that until I die or people start to see what I mean.

AJ Hawks stats tell us that he's great, is that a lie? And Singleton is not very good IMO. Again, don't get me wrong, I really like CArpenter, but I think people are loving him based on popularity.

Their defense was crowned king of Linebackers and I dont' know why that is. It was Hawk who was the Super Star there. And if you ask me, Chad Greenway put up MONSTER numbers and no one's talking about him. I'm trying to see why Carpenter is the best pick out of Greenway/Howard , other natural outside linebackers.

 

[cleverusername]

If we know we can trade down and still get him like we did in 2002 with Roy Williams moving from 6 to 8, then we should do it. If we can't then we should simply take him.

This kid has a great football motor.

He can play SOLB or ILB.

He's smart. (Vastly underrated by too many people.)

He can cover TEs.

He's strong against the run.

He can rush the passer.

He's got size and is football fast.

He has my favorite...pedigree. Quit groaning you 8-balls. :

Very important with Parcells.

 

[Hostile]

You're a smart arse.

I agree if push came to shove I would take Carpenter at #18 and be very happy with the pick. I think his addition would give us potentially a very good and very young lineback corp with some decent depth behind with Singleton, Burnett, Fowler, Thornton and the kid we signed from Tennessee.

Boiman is the kid from Tennessee.

If we get Carpenter there is no need to rush Burnett back. That is a key to 2006 IMO. Burnett can play all 4 LB positions which means his value cannot be underscored enough. Whether he starts of spells one of the starters, we need his contribution in 2006. If we rush him back, he can be ruined.

If he's back and 100% then use carpenter as the guy who spells all 4 LB spots and plays ST.

A LB corps as you named above can dominate games. Speed and smarts plus versatility. Are you kidding me?

Take him if he's there.

I won't be at all upset if we take Lawson over him. I realize the potential of him and Ware as bookends is amazing. I think Carpenter is by far the best fit.

 

[Hostile]

AJ Hawks stats tell us that he's great, is that a lie? And Singleton is not very good IMO. Again, don't get me wrong, I really like CArpenter, but I think people are loving him based on popularity.

Their defense was crowned king of Linebackers and I dont' know why that is. It was Hawk who was the Super Star there. And if you ask me, Chad Greenway put up MONSTER numbers and no one's talking about him. I'm trying to see why Carpenter is the best pick out of Greenway/Howard , other natural outside linebackers.

Read what I said again.

"Some things cannot be translated into stats."

Does that say Nothing can be translated into stats?

Exactly, so no it isn't a lie. If Singleton is no good, why did the D play better when he was healthy? He did the journeyman work to free up other people to make the plays. That doesn't translate into stats.

I don't love Carpenter because their LB corps was amazing. I love the kid because he exemplifies what is right about football. He's the guy willing to free Hawk up to make the plays.

 

[Rush 2112]

Who was the last tweener who had a bio that read stout at point of attack vs mammoth 320 OT's and excels in coverage?

There's a reason they are project converts to 3-4 OLB.

 

[bobbie brewskie]

bobby carpenter - he knows the position is a good run stopper, a solid coverage backer and a solid pass rusher, i like him a lot as a SOLB and he would fit our scheme well. he will prove to be solid on his own and be a nice compliment to ware.

Manny Lawson - you guys are saying we should try to convert a DE into a run stopping/coverage backer? this guy can rush the QB no doubt and would compliment ware better than anyone, but the question is if he can cover and stop the run as well as carpenter, and the answer is no.

they are both good backers and would make great but different impacts on our D, as manny lawson would take the pressure off of ware and our DBs with his pass rushing ability, while being weaker in coverage puts a little more pressure on our DBs, and as he is worse against the run as well he would attract more pressure on our other LBs, SS and DE's.

id be happy with either, but carpenter will be available in a trade down which will give us another third rounder (bengals).

 

[skinsscalper]

While agree with most of the analysis of Carpenter's play and his strengths, there is one thing that intriguing about Lawson: he is almost a Ware clone. Now, I know the arguements about the need for a different type of guy on the strong side (mostly run stopping and the ability to cover the TE), but there's also an arguement for the other side of the coin. The effectiveness of a 3-4 defense is the confusion factor. In effect, you want the O-line and the QB to guess which OLB is coming and which one is rushing the passer. With two Ware-like OLB it will be VERY hard to make the distinction because one guy isn't the proto run-stopper or pass rusher. Ware struggled against the run early last year also in the beginning ofthe season. By mid season, though, he was pretty stout in that area, and his weakness had a lot less to do with his physical gifts than it did with sticking to his assignment and not over-running the play.

I think Lawson could be the same type of guy. Not to mention the fact that Lawson would not be solely responsible for stopping the run (there are two inside guys that also have that responsibility). I just think that with Ware and Lawson manning the outside our delayed blitz and stunt packages would be phenomenal. Just my two cents.

SS

 

[Hostile]

While agree with most of the analysis of Carpenter's play and his strengths, there is one thing that intriguing about Lawson: he is almost a Ware clone. Now, I know the arguements about the need for a different type of guy on the strong side (mostly run stopping and the ability to cover the TE), but there's also an arguement for the other side of the coin. The effectiveness of a 3-4 defense is the confusion factor. In effect, you want the O-line and the QB to guess which OLB is coming and which one is rushing the passer. With two Ware-like OLB it will be VERY hard to make the distinction because one guy isn't the proto run-stopper or pass rusher. Ware struggled against the run early last year also in the beginning ofthe season. By mid season, though, he was pretty stout in that area, and his weakness had a lot less to do with his physical gifts than it did with sticking to his assignment and not over-running the play.

I think Lawson could be the same type of guy. Not to mention the fact that Lawson would not be solely responsible for stopping the run (there are two inside guys that also have that responsibility). I just think that with Ware and Lawson manning the outside our delayed blitz and stunt packages would be phenomenal. Just my two cents.

SS

Lawson and Ware could be every bit as dangerous as Greg Lloyd and Kevin Green were as bookends. That's saying a lot.

Ware and Carpenter would be more like Lawrence Taylor and Carl Banks as bookends.

IMO either option is pretty enticing and I am all for it.

 

[jterrell]

The problem with the theory here is that the guys who fit as OLB in a 3-4 almost all play DEs in college. Its just a size/speed issue.

I am with on selecting Carpenter after a slight move down for sure but not at all scared of a move that has produced the best OLBs in the recent era of the NFL.

 

[InmanRoshi]

As Adam pointed out, there isn't a strong side or a weakside linebacker. There is a left side OLB and a right side OLB. For some reason this reminant of OLB's switching sides has stayed with Cowboy fans from the 4-3. Ware and Carpenter aren't going to switch sides if the TE motions from one end of the field to the other.

Outside of Merriman, I can't think of a current 3-4 starting NFL OLB who didn't play with his hand on the ground as a down lineman in college.

 

[jterrell]

This is what I want to focus on for a minute of your time Mike. I too believe this guy is the perfect fit @ SOLB and is the player we should take over any other. If we can't trade down to still try and take him, we should go ahead and take him at 18 and not worry about if it is "too early."

Lots of people that Indy took Dwight Freeney too early with the 11th overall pick in 2002. No one thinks that now though do they?

There is alot of truth to this.

While no one wants to reach, no one wants to lose a player either.

If we had traded up to 6 and took Emmitt and gave up another high pick would be upset by that now?

Carpenter seems to present a real value to alot of 3-4 teams. I'd like to be the one to get him.

 

[skinsscalper]

Lawson and Ware could be every bit as dangerous as Greg Lloyd and Kevin Green were as bookends. That's saying a lot.

Ware and Carpenter would be more like Lawrence Taylor and Carl Banks as bookends.

IMO either option is pretty enticing and I am all for it.

I would have to completely agree.

SS

 

[AsthmaField]

I feel like the reason they all say they're not stout at the point of attack is because they've all been evaluated from their college tapes, which is them trying to anchor againts OT's. That's why they're considered tweeners... because they can't hold up at the point playing DE. However... playing OLB, they go from being undersized for the position (DE) to being big for their position. They anchor much better there than at DE.

Also, they're not going to be considered good in coverage if they've played DE all through college and rarely had to do so. All the draft guru's will mark that as a negative... even if it isn't, or they have no idea if it is.

Having said all of that... I really do like Carpenter as well.

 

[jterrell]

As Adam pointed out, there isn't a strong side or a weakside linebacker. There is a left side OLB and a right side OLB. For some reason this reminant of OLB's switching sides has stayed with Cowboy fans from the 4-3. Ware and Carpenter aren't going to switch sides if the TE motions from one end of the field to the other.

Outside of Merriman, I can't think of a current 3-4 starting NFL OLB who didn't play with his hand on the ground as a down lineman in college.

Teams will generally run out their TE to the right of the QB thus making Ware essentially a weakside guy. That is because most offenses are simply more effective that way. More right-handed RBs and QBs.

But you are right about the hands-down collegiate being an OLB in the pros. Pitt and other teams who have done well long term in the 3-4 grab those guys yearly. There are more busts at LB in the 4-3 where guys played that position in college honestly. Being a 3-4 OLB is a sweet gig if you have the raw athleticism to do so. Who wouldn't love to get paid to attack all day long.

Too bad I wasn't born 6'5" and 265.

 

[Clove]

I like Carpenters size, speed, agility, I definitely love his mean streak. I would not pout at all if we chose Carpenter. But I also think that Lawson could cover anyone they put on him.

They say he's a really sharp kid, and since he has all the tools, he could accomplish just as much in his first year as Carpenter would except, he would get better and better and his upside could be the sky IMO.

So I'm torn here... I will tell you that, if we were to draft Greenway, I would not be sad one bit. The only linebackers or Tweeners I would be upset about are the ones who are vastly undersized or just plain slow.

 

[cleverusername]

Lawson and Ware could be every bit as dangerous as Greg Lloyd and Kevin Green were as bookends. That's saying a lot.

Ware and Carpenter would be more like Lawrence Taylor and Carl Banks as bookends.

IMO either option is pretty enticing and I am all for it.

I can't wait!


With the 18th pick, in the 2006 draft, the Dallas Cowboys select ........

(or some variation, trade down, ect)

 

[Hostile]

I can't wait!


With the 18th pick, in the 2006 draft, the Dallas Cowboys select ........

(or some variation, trade down, ect)

Borrowing some lyrics from the man in your avatar. Here's to QBs this year singing this verse.

I hear the trains a coming,
They're rolling round the bend,
And I ain't seen the sunshine,
Since I don't know when.

Bring the pain.