Just say "NO" to converting a DE to OLB...

[InmanRoshi]

Teams will generally run out their TE to the right of the QB thus making Ware essentially a weakside guy. That is because most offenses are simply more effective that way. More right-handed RBs and QBs.

But you are right about the hands-down collegiate being an OLB in the pros. Pitt and other teams who have done well long term in the 3-4 grab those guys yearly. There are more busts at LB in the 4-3 where guys played that position in college honestly. Being a 3-4 OLB is a sweet gig if you have the raw athleticism to do so. Who wouldn't love to get paid to attack all day long.

Too bad I wasn't born 6'5" and 265.

I understand your point that TE's traditionally line up on the offense's right side, but when you face an offense that motions as much as Al Saunders does then there really is little to no difference between the responsibilities of the right and left side linebackers. They'll both be asked to do it all. Just like Rosie Colvin and Willie McGinnest and Mike Vrabel were asked to do it all against the Colts.

 

[Hostile]

I understand your point that TE's traditionally line up on the offense's right side, but when you face an offense that motions as much as Al Saunders does then there really is little to no difference between the responsibilities of the right and left side linebackers. They'll both be asked to do it all. Just like Rosie Colvin and Willie McGinnest and Mike Vrabel were asked to do it all against the Colts.

The names Strong side and Weak side pre-date the motion offenses, etc.

I seriously doubt they will ever go away. No matter how much offenses change. A team could line their TE up on the Left all game long and most would still call that the Weak side.

It's just part of the football lexicon.

 

[DLCassidy]

I don't think there's much debate that Carpenter is the most "NFL ready" of all the candidates for SOLB. And there's little doubt we can draft him at 18. Having said that I don't think we will. The art of the draft is not to reach for a player at 18 that likely won't go before 29. Noone can say for sure where Carpenter will go but his measurables don't scream at you like Lawson's.

Personally I think we will be ok living on Lawson's transition to 3-4 OLB. Watching Ware go through that every week was, to me anyway, very exciting and rewarding. Lawson will make some errors Carpenter probably wouldn't early on. But he's faster than any TE in the NFL so it won't take long for him to learn his assignments. And in the meantime I think we will keep Al Singleton one more year and rotate Lawson in gradually. You don't pick guys based on who will be better in the 1st year alone.

 

[Teague31]

looking more and more that lawson will be gone by 18... i think you are on the money with carpenter.

 

[playit12]

Converted DE's are often your very best run stoppers. College DE's have run first responsibilities and are generally much better at shedding and controlling blockers, as they are required to do so on every play on the Line. The only issues come with coverage responsibilites. However I think we would be better off playing to the team strength. We have good coverage CBs and with any luck will improve at the FS position.

Don't forget that OLBs have to take on a tackle with little or no assistance from the front 3. This is not something that any of the Linebackers you mentioned have ever had to manage. I'd rather take the guys with some actual experience in this area if I'm looking for a run stopper.

 

[MiStar]

There are a lot of people that still don't realize that despite the fact that Ware improved throughout the year in coverage and stacking against the run, he still wasn't very good. People don't seem to realize that because he finished the year with 8 sacks and rarely dropped into coverage. I doubt that Ware is ever going to be much more than passrushing linebacker.

I also don't see much point in having two speed rushers since most of the time, you'll only be rushing one. And if a team has a tackle that is succeptible to speed rushers, then we can always move Ware to the appropriate side.

 

[speedkilz88]

Ware was pretty good in coverage, he still has more to learn, but nothing wrong with what he did as a rookie.

Lawson played OLB in a 4-3 as a freshman and sophomore, so he does have coverage ability. He even covered Heath Miller as a freshman. He also dropped into coverage as a DE some in his last two years. He has the best package of skills to play the 3-4 out of these guys that should be available. If he somehow is drafted before #18, I think Wimbley will still be there and he fits as well.

And Merriman was also a DE at Maryland. He was a standup DE, he said so himself on NFLnetwork. Dallas was looking at him as a SOLB and thats where SD put him opposite Foley. Merriman is a lot bigger than Lawson, but I remember many last year were afraid he was getting too big. I think Lawson will grow into the position and thats all you can ask. You don't necessarily get finished products out of the draft.

 

[DLCassidy]

There are a lot of people that still don't realize that despite the fact that Ware improved throughout the year in coverage and stacking against the run, he still wasn't very good. People don't seem to realize that because he finished the year with 8 sacks and rarely dropped into coverage. I doubt that Ware is ever going to be much more than passrushing linebacker.

I also don't see much point in having two speed rushers since most of the time, you'll only be rushing one. And if a team has a tackle that is succeptible to speed rushers, then we can always move Ware to the appropriate side.

Parcells would disagree with you about Ware I'm sure. Ware made progress all season. He's going to be a star. For a rookie changing positions he did great and there is absolutely no reason to believe he won't continue to improve.

The point of having 2 speed rushers is the point of the 3-4. You don't know where the rush is coming from. Ware and Lawson together could be a lethal combo. Our rivals are praying we take the safe pick and not take the guy with the monster upside.

 

[Clove]

There are a lot of people that still don't realize that despite the fact that Ware improved throughout the year in coverage and stacking against the run, he still wasn't very good. People don't seem to realize that because he finished the year with 8 sacks and rarely dropped into coverage. I doubt that Ware is ever going to be much more than passrushing linebacker.

I also don't see much point in having two speed rushers since most of the time, you'll only be rushing one. And if a team has a tackle that is succeptible to speed rushers, then we can always move Ware to the appropriate side.

I hate to bring facts into the equasion, but here goes.

Here is a list of the 3-4 OLBrs that played last year, and their stats compared to Ware.

Dallas Cowboys
D.Ware- Tackles=58 - Sacks = 8 - INTs - 0 = Passes Defended = 1
S.Fujita-Tackles=53 - Sacks = 2 - INTs - 0 = Passes Defended = 1

San Diego Chargers
S.Merriman-Tackles=57 - Sacks = 10 - INTs - 0 = Passes Defended = 4
S.Foley-Tackles=37 - Sacks = 4.5 - INTs - 0 = Passes Defended = 3

Pittsburgh Steelers
J.Porter-Tackles=56 - Sacks = 7 - INTs - 2 = Passes Defended = 5
C.Haggans-Tackles=59 - Sacks = 9 - INTs - 0 = Passes Defended = 3

New England Patriots
W.McGinest-Tackles=56 - Sacks = 6 - INTs - 0 = Passes Defended = 4
R.Colvin-Tackles=60 - Sacks = 7 - INTs - 0 = Passes Defended = 2

San Francisco 49ers
J.Peterson- Tackles=82 - Sacks = 3 - INTs - 0 = Passes Defended = 5
(Don't know who the other starting olb was)

Houston Texans
S.Orr-Tackles=50 - Sacks = 7 - INTs - 0 = Passes Defended = 2
A.Peak-Tackles=46 - Sacks = 6 - INTs - 0 = Passes Defended = 1

As I see it, Ware (tweener) did just as good as all the natural OLB and probably better than most of them. Now since Ware played his 1st time ever as an OLB in a 3-4, I'll give him a couple of years to make a couple more passes defensed. But his tackles suggest that he had no problem containing his area. We just lose our minds when you watch only one person on the defense, so when they blow a play, OMG that guy can't contain his side.

How did he end up with the same stats as the vets? So I would suggest that Manny Lawson would put up identicle numbers and possibly better. IMO, the only OLB that blew most of the OLBrs away in tackles was Peterman, and Peterman didn't put up the sack numbers they others did.

So it's okay if we bring in Lawson, I promise you, it's okay.

 

[junk]

AJ Hawks stats tell us that he's great, is that a lie? And Singleton is not very good IMO. Again, don't get me wrong, I really like CArpenter, but I think people are loving him based on popularity.

Their defense was crowned king of Linebackers and I dont' know why that is. It was Hawk who was the Super Star there. And if you ask me, Chad Greenway put up MONSTER numbers and no one's talking about him. I'm trying to see why Carpenter is the best pick out of Greenway/Howard , other natural outside linebackers.

Because if you've seen Greenway and Carpenter play much, you know what kind of players they are. Completely different players and I think Greenway is overrated and a poor fit for the 3-4.

Carpenter gets a ground swell of support here because a few people have been tracking and targeting him all year as a terrific 3-4 OLB prospect. He's actually considered underrated in most draft circles......but he is rising fast.

No one is arguing that Hawk was the star there and I'd take him in a heartbeat if I had the chance. However, Carpenter is a fine LB in his own right. You also have to consider that he had his hand on the ground quite a bit and didn't get a chance to rack up those pursuit tackles on passing plays that Hawk would have.

He had 95 tackles his junior year playing full time LB.

 

[junk]

I understand your point that TE's traditionally line up on the offense's right side, but when you face an offense that motions as much as Al Saunders does then there really is little to no difference between the responsibilities of the right and left side linebackers. They'll both be asked to do it all. Just like Rosie Colvin and Willie McGinnest and Mike Vrabel were asked to do it all against the Colts.

The bulk of the time, the TE is going to be on that right side. You typically want your pass rusher coming to the QBs blind side or weak side as well. Same concept as a 4-3 end.

As the season wore on, the team was moving Ware around as well.

 

[ThreeSportStar80]

Bobby Carpenter doesn't excite me really, I'd rather see the Cowboys draft Manny Lawson!!!

 

[MiStar]

The stats posted by Cowboy_love_4_ever have very little to do with anything that I said. You can't possibly have watched the Denver of KC games and said that Ware did a good job of stacking, shedding and getting containment. I can't remember ever seeing him shut down a reciever in a game, but I remember plenty of times where he failed to jam recievers at the line of scrimmage.

And just for the record, Scott Fujitta is a very good athlete in his own right. Coming out of College, he was smart guy, listed at 6'5", 240, with 4.5 speed.
Sound anything like anyone coming out this year?

The only good thing that I can say about his coverage is that he never got beat deep, but he had safety help on the rare occasion that he had to cover something other than the flat. So it's kind of a moot point.

And just for the record, Scott Fujitta is a very good athlete in his own right. Coming out of College, he was smart guy, listed at 6'5", 240, with 4.5 speed.
Sound anything like anyone coming out this year?

 

[AdamJT13]

Another stat to add to Cowboy_love_4ever's list, according to STATS Inc. --

Dallas Cowboys
D.Ware- Tackles for loss -- 10.0
S.Fujita- Tackles for loss -- 0.5

San Diego Chargers
S.Merriman- Tackles for loss -- 5.0
S.Foley- Tackles for loss -- 2.0


Pittsburgh Steelers
J.Porter- Tackles for loss -- 3.0
C.Haggans- Tackles for loss -- 1.5


New England Patriots
W.McGinest- Tackles for loss -- 4.5
R.Colvin- Tackles for loss -- 4.0


San Francisco 49ers
J.Peterson- Tackles for loss -- 5.5


Houston Texans
S.Orr- Tackles for loss -- 2.5
A.Peek- Tackles for loss -- 1.5

 

[Clove]

The stats posted by Cowboy_love_4_ever have very little to do with anything that I said. You can't possibly have watched the Denver of KC games and said that Ware did a good job of stacking, shedding and getting containment. I can't remember ever seeing him shut down a reciever in a game, but I remember plenty of times where he failed to jam recievers at the line of scrimmage.

And just for the record, Scott Fujitta is a very good athlete in his own right. Coming out of College, he was smart guy, listed at 6'5", 240, with 4.5 speed.
Sound anything like anyone coming out this year?

The only good thing that I can say about his coverage is that he never got beat deep, but he had safety help on the rare occasion that he had to cover something other than the flat. So it's kind of a moot point.

And just for the record, Scott Fujitta is a very good athlete in his own right. Coming out of College, he was smart guy, listed at 6'5", 240, with 4.5 speed.
Sound anything like anyone coming out this year?

It has a lot to do with it. You're suggesting that he couldn't contain his side. And I say to you, he did just fine containing his side of the field. You show me one player that never loses containment on a running back, and I'll call you God.

I say he did a heck of a job, and yes he did lose containment a few times, but so does everyone. But what I see is someone trying to justify drafting Bobby Carpenter over Manny Lawson, on the premise that Ware couldn't get it done, so Lawson can't get it done.. ANd since I think that's what you're getting too, then you tell me how do you know Carpenter can get it done, and Lawson can't get it done?

We already have a natural linebacker on this team whos nearly the same size as Carpenter and his name is Kevin Burnett. So I see no reason to get another linebacker just like him, unless the boys are looking for something else in a linebacker.

 

[Clove]

Another stat to add to Cowboy_love_4ever's list, according to STATS Inc. --

Dallas Cowboys
D.Ware- Tackles for loss -- 10.0
S.Fujita- Tackles for loss -- 0.5

San Diego Chargers
S.Merriman- Tackles for loss -- 5.0
S.Foley- Tackles for loss -- 2.0


Pittsburgh Steelers
J.Porter- Tackles for loss -- 3.0
C.Haggans- Tackles for loss -- 1.5


New England Patriots
W.McGinest- Tackles for loss -- 4.5
R.Colvin- Tackles for loss -- 4.0


San Francisco 49ers
J.Peterson- Tackles for loss -- 5.5


Houston Texans
S.Orr- Tackles for loss -- 2.5
A.Peek- Tackles for loss -- 1.5

You are the man. And for those who don't think that stats tell the story (95%) of the time, I say we need to redo the HOF voting. Stats tell the history of how a person performs. Now I do understand that Stats don't tell the whole story, but if a Running back is averaging 4.5 yards for his career, then this means to me that this back is getting yards and moving the chains. But a 3.2 guy is no threat to a defense, and he's not helping his team get 1st downs.
But thanks again Adamj.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Parcells would disagree with you about Ware I'm sure. Ware made progress all season. He's going to be a star. For a rookie changing positions he did great and there is absolutely no reason to believe he won't continue to improve.

The point of having 2 speed rushers is the point of the 3-4. You don't know where the rush is coming from. Ware and Lawson together could be a lethal combo. Our rivals are praying we take the safe pick and not take the guy with the monster upside.

You're making a lot of assumptions that you have no proof of.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

It has a lot to do with it. You're suggesting that he couldn't contain his side. And I say to you, he did just fine containing his side of the field. You show me one player that never loses containment on a running back, and I'll call you God.

I say he did a heck of a job, and yes he did lose containment a few times, but so does everyone. But what I see is someone trying to justify drafting Bobby Carpenter over Manny Lawson, on the premise that Ware couldn't get it done, so Lawson can't get it done.. ANd since I think that's what you're getting too, then you tell me how do you know Carpenter can get it done, and Lawson can't get it done?

We already have a natural linebacker on this team whos nearly the same size as Carpenter and his name is Kevin Burnett. So I see no reason to get another linebacker just like him, unless the boys are looking for something else in a linebacker.

You do know that Burnett suffered an ACL tear and may not be 100% for a while yet.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

I hate to bring facts into the equasion, but here goes.

Here is a list of the 3-4 OLBrs that played last year, and their stats compared to Ware.

Dallas Cowboys
D.Ware- Tackles=58 - Sacks = 8 - INTs - 0 = Passes Defended = 1
S.Fujita-Tackles=53 - Sacks = 2 - INTs - 0 = Passes Defended = 1

San Diego Chargers
S.Merriman-Tackles=57 - Sacks = 10 - INTs - 0 = Passes Defended = 4
S.Foley-Tackles=37 - Sacks = 4.5 - INTs - 0 = Passes Defended = 3

Pittsburgh Steelers
J.Porter-Tackles=56 - Sacks = 7 - INTs - 2 = Passes Defended = 5
C.Haggans-Tackles=59 - Sacks = 9 - INTs - 0 = Passes Defended = 3

New England Patriots
W.McGinest-Tackles=56 - Sacks = 6 - INTs - 0 = Passes Defended = 4
R.Colvin-Tackles=60 - Sacks = 7 - INTs - 0 = Passes Defended = 2

San Francisco 49ers
J.Peterson- Tackles=82 - Sacks = 3 - INTs - 0 = Passes Defended = 5
(Don't know who the other starting olb was)

Houston Texans
S.Orr-Tackles=50 - Sacks = 7 - INTs - 0 = Passes Defended = 2
A.Peak-Tackles=46 - Sacks = 6 - INTs - 0 = Passes Defended = 1

As I see it, Ware (tweener) did just as good as all the natural OLB and probably better than most of them. Now since Ware played his 1st time ever as an OLB in a 3-4, I'll give him a couple of years to make a couple more passes defensed. But his tackles suggest that he had no problem containing his area. We just lose our minds when you watch only one person on the defense, so when they blow a play, OMG that guy can't contain his side.

How did he end up with the same stats as the vets? So I would suggest that Manny Lawson would put up identicle numbers and possibly better. IMO, the only OLB that blew most of the OLBrs away in tackles was Peterman, and Peterman didn't put up the sack numbers they others did.

So it's okay if we bring in Lawson, I promise you, it's okay.

That's nice of you to give Ware a couple more years.

But let me remind you that a single mistake in coverage can devastate your season.

Rewind-- Oakland game. Moss comes out in the slot and Ware is assigned the responsibility to jam and redirect him at the line of scrimmage.

OOOOPPPPSSSSS!!!!

Oh so sorry! I forgot to jam!

The result?

Need I remind you.

That happened often last year.

I say let's draft a real OLB that knows what to do when assigned with coverage responsibilities.

 

[DLCassidy]

You're making a lot of assumptions that you have no proof of.

Where's your proof that Carpenter will have a better rookie year than Lawson? This entire discussion is about opinions. Or are there some facts you've shared that I missed? And if I made assumptions they are based on the words flowing from BP's mouth every week in his PC's about Ware and the progress he was making every week and the potential he has.

Even a guy that plays OLB in college is probably making a major adjustment coming to a 3-4 pro defense. That's the reason most 3-4 teams look at converting DE's- there are few SOLB's big enough to handle the job. Other than Carpenter can you name 1 in this draft? What you gain in coverage you may give up against the run and in sacks. And as others have pointed out you rarely draft finished products at any position- you don't draft players for one year.