Lawrence - Not So Much

[RonnieT24]

That's kinda like those USC QBs from a while back had big time WRs and O-lines and NFL RBs. One of the things I liked about Dak is what he did with lesser talent.

Yeah USC in the early 2000's or any QB under Spurrier at Florida or a long list of guys who lit it up for The U back in '80's and 90's. Lots of QBs are able to light up college when their team is vastly superior across the board to the opponents.. I am always more interested and impressed by guys who drag lesser teams to the brink of greatness the way Dak did at MSU.. Or even Lamar Jackson at Louisville. I could put 100 different QBs on Bama and they'd still be a title contender.. But not a lot of QBs can drag Mississippi State or Louisville into the top 5.

 

[RonnieT24]

and that was kind of the point I was going with without saying. I think the last few weeks if we did a stock up and stock down Fields has risen a bit versus Lawrence going down a bit. That said Im thinking barbie will end up a better QB

I think they both have a shot to be good. But I think Fields' athleticism might give him a slight edge if he goes to a team with a bad offensive line. But it's not like Lawrence is some slug back there. He's a decent athlete too so I don't wanna slight him too much there. Neither of them is going to be running much in 5 years anyway.. At least not if they progress the way you want QBs to progress in the NFL..

 

[starfan1]

I think they both have a shot to be good. But I think Fields' athleticism might give him a slight edge if he goes to a team with a bad offensive line. But it's not like Lawrence is some slug back there. He's a decent athlete too so I don't wanna slight him too much there. Neither of them is going to be running much in 5 years anyway.. At least not if they progress the way you want QBs to progress in the NFL..

I agree and I hope I'm not implying I think Barbie will be a slouch in fact between the 2 I think his skillset translate better than Fields. I dont think he is as good as Luck was coming out of college because i think some of his success is playing with arguably the best team in CFB.

Be interesting to see how it pans out. I was very surprised to see how well fields did against Clemson but part of that could be my hate for OSU

 

[plymkr]

I think he will be a good pro. His game reminds me of the Bills QB. I think he COULD be great but sometimes QB success also hinges on the team and staff that gets them. Not sure Mahomes could be great as a NYJ right now so good luck to a rookie. I exaggerate but you get my point.

I totally get your point. Like if Mahomes was drafted by the Bears instead of KC. Sure Mahomes would have been an upgrade over Trubisky but I don't think the Bears win the super bowl and Mahomes is putting up the numbers he is.

I feel drafting and the prospects that come out depend on a couple factors. The team, the system, etc. I feel if we did have the #1 overall and we took TL, then we still would be perennial 8-8. We have a dysfunctional organization. TL going to the jags is not going to do much because they're as bad as us. His talents will be wasted there and 10 years from people will say he "wasn't the greatest after all" but it's the team's fault.

 

[RonnieT24]

I agree and I hope I'm not implying I think Barbie will be a slouch in fact between the 2 I think his skillset translate better than Fields. I dont think he is as good as Luck was coming out of college because i think some of his success is playing with arguably the best team in CFB.

Be interesting to see how it pans out. I was very surprised to see how well fields did against Clemson but part of that could be my hate for OSU

I wonder if this will be the case if the NFL continues to trend toward more of the college game offensively. With the RPO and more of an emphasis on QB running ability as a general trend I think Fields might have an edge there.. at least early on. But for both it's going to require a good OC who can utilize their abilities properly. The worst thing any coach can do to one of these kids is ask them to change every thing they did in college to suit what they want them to be in the pros. Start out letting them play to their strengths and then whittle away at the weaknesses over time. That's how it SHOULD work. Both Lawrence and Fields spent most of their college careers playing against inferior teams. It will be interesting to see ow they handle being on the other end of that spectrum in the pros. Some guys have a hard time handling it..

 

[Bullflop]

I understand all that, just saying I would draft JF if I were a GM picking that high

Not a problem. Some say that and some don't. There's a case to be made for both Lawrence and Fields. I'd be satisfied with either.

 

[McKDaddy]

Dak took a garbage program to a number 1 rating in college.

TL couldnt beat anyone with a great roster, and a legend of a college coach.

All I am pointing out. Is that football is a TEAM sport no matter who the QB is.

Then say its a Team sport and don't say TL didn't or couldn't do things that .... he clearly did. But yet you say Dak took a garbage program to #1. When TL does it its a team game but when Dak is a part of something its his accomplishment alone. Interesting.

I'm not a die hard TL fan but be fair to the guy. He HAS accomplished all those things and deserves the respect that comes with it.

 

[McKDaddy]

Yeah USC in the early 2000's or any QB under Spurrier at Florida or a long list of guys who lit it up for The U back in '80's and 90's. Lots of QBs are able to light up college when their team is vastly superior across the board to the opponents.. I am always more interested and impressed by guys who drag lesser teams to the brink of greatness the way Dak did at MSU.. Or even Lamar Jackson at Louisville. I could put 100 different QBs on Bama and they'd still be a title contender.. But not a lot of QBs can drag Mississippi State or Louisville into the top 5.

I live in MS and while both fans of MSU & other teams agree that Dak was a great competitor I have never heard a single person say they believed he was a great, difference making QB. When he became QB of the Cowboys, MSU fans were the first to tell me that Dak's ceiling was low.

I can see how it might look like he really raised the bar but insiders will tell you it had less to do with talent than effort & ability to run.

 

[phildadon86]

Then say its a Team sport and don't say TL didn't or couldn't do things that .... he clearly did. But yet you say Dak took a garbage program to #1. When TL does it its a team game but when Dak is a part of something its his accomplishment alone. Interesting.

I'm not a die hard TL fan but be fair to the guy. He HAS accomplished all those things and deserves the respect that comes with it.

When TL does it its with Clemson. When Dak did it. It was with Miss State.

You really want to compare the 2?

Name me who was drafted other than Dak and Kupp from that Miss State team.

Now name me whos been drafted from the Clemson team over the last i dont know 3 years.

Ill wait.

You are misunderstanding what I am saying. Dak led the team that is normally a bottom dweller to a top ranking.

TL led the team to the championship who has top recruits and one of the best programs in the country year in and year out.

If you compare their situations and say they are the same you are lying to yourself.

 

[LACowboysFan1]

Interesting post. You brought up something that I was thinking about but couldn't put my finger on it. You mentioned TL is as solid if a draft pick as anyone in the draft. I agree but does that mean he'll be a generational player? What kind of pro career do you he'll have. Or are you saying he will be a solid pro by your comment on him being a solid draft pick?

Maybe it's splitting hairs but I always think back to 89. Troy was the #1pick and was a generational player. Mandrich was a can't miss draft pick. I think there are great draft picks and also great players. By watching TL in college do you guys think he's the next Patrick Mahomes or a solid, safe draft pick. I'm just curious, since we're not getting him I'm curious what the consensus is.

There won't be a consensus, you know that, lol.

Lawrence is in a sense the same as Tom Brady before the draft. Both were potentially great NFL quarterbacks, and potentially bust NFL quarterbacks. Forget the stats. Lawrence played on a team loaded with talent, if for no other reason than his and other big programs have 90-something scholarship players, and before they got to the team, the team had either won championships or won lots of games. Some guy who is not at the top level of high school players knows if he goes to Alabama, e.g., he has an excellent chance to be on a national championship team, whether he plays a lot or very little. So it's easy to load up your team. Here in Louisiana, LSU went years without being able to beat Alabama, or win a title. Finally Saban "broke through" and they got one. Now LSU is in the mix for the championship just about every year. Players now come to LSU when they wouldn't before because the chances of a title NOW is much better than years ago.j

Judging a college player by his titles, wins or such can (not necessarily always) be tainted by playing on a talent-packed team. You have to look at his physical traits, emotional makeup, by interviews of the player and his teammates and many other things as well.

Just saying that the Jags should take Lawrence because he was so great in college is still a risk....

 

[McKDaddy]

Dak led the team that is normally a bottom dweller to a top ranking.

no, they are a normally a mid level SEC program which means they are conference champs or at least contenders in other conferences. You improve just a bit & you are a highly ranked team. They didn't deserve to go to #1 but they beat LSU and looked to be dominant in the trenches. That is why they were elevated, not Dak.

They lost to Alabama & Ole Miss in the regular season and then to Ga Tech in the bowl. Thus they were only ranked #1 for a few weeks and finished at #11. TL has led Clemson to finish the year #1 a to be ranked #1 for long stretches.

I don't pretend that TL & Dak were in the same situation. I only pushed back when you said TL had never won a championship, beaten a legendary coach, etc.. No matter what team he was on, he has done his job and done it well.

If you don't believe he will make it in the NFL, fine. You could be right. But give him the credit for what is already done.

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

No it's just some trying to put words in my mouth. Here's an example. I can say that whatever color car there are the most of and then those people come back and say but there are other color cars. I didn't say there wasn't.
.

Hands down you gotta be the smartest guy at JiffyLube.

 

[RonnieT24]

I live in MS and while both fans of MSU & other teams agree that Dak was a great competitor I have never heard a single person say they believed he was a great, difference making QB. When he became QB of the Cowboys, MSU fans were the first to tell me that Dak's ceiling was low.

I can see how it might look like he really raised the bar but insiders will tell you it had less to do with talent than effort & ability to run.

You can see that but you apparently can't see this dude's development and evolution as an NFL passer? Nobody cares what is had less to do with. Results are what matters. Style points are for the BCS voters. I judge a player by what he does to help his team win not by some misguided notion about how "insiders" rate his skillset. Dak's is 10 times the passer now that he was his rookie year. If you can't see that then I can't help you and there's really nothing further to be said.

 

[CouchCoach]

I think one of the things that many don't consider is how this has shifted with rookie QB's over the last 20 years. Especially with Lawrence, the next Peyton Manning.

Johnson got criticism from throwing Aikman to the wolves while the Oilers gut credit for bringing McNair along slowly. Rookie QB's didn't start, they carried the clipboard and listened, watched and learned.

Remember Manning's first years? He led the league in picks and Aikman led it in sacks until he was finally knocked out. However, their HC's could say that was what developed them into elite QB's.

But the thing that really changed was the attitude some of the coaches had toward these young QB's, which happens to coincide with the owners changing the rules to make the QB's more critical and valuable. Instead of making the QB adapt to them, they began adapting their training and playbook to the QB. That was so important to AZ that they hired the HC just for the QB. A first in the NFL and he wasn't even a successful college HC.

You can bet that the teams planning on taking one of these QB's is doing extensive film study on the offenses they ran in college. They're doing exactly what Andy Reid did because the offense Mahomes runs is nothing like what Alex Smith ran. Makes me wonder how much better might gun slinging QB's like Kingsbury and Andre Ware done if their HC's would have done what Reid did for Mahomes?

 

[rnr_honeybadger]

Scream all you want about Dak's stats, all it highlights is that he is a slightly above average QB and yes you can win with that in the NFL but don't expect him to be the guy to carry the team of step his game up to another level. Do I think he is worth the contract they are about to shell out for him? No. If the QB market actually made sense Dak would be in the range of a 20 - 25 million a year guy. But the market is entirely speculative and there is no sense to it.

 

[RonnieT24]

I think one of the things that many don't consider is how this has shifted with rookie QB's over the last 20 years. Especially with Lawrence, the next Peyton Manning.

Johnson got criticism from throwing Aikman to the wolves while the Oilers gut credit for bringing McNair along slowly. Rookie QB's didn't start, they carried the clipboard and listened, watched and learned.

Remember Manning's first years? He led the league in picks and Aikman led it in sacks until he was finally knocked out. However, their HC's could say that was what developed them into elite QB's.

But the thing that really changed was the attitude some of the coaches had toward these young QB's, which happens to coincide with the owners changing the rules to make the QB's more critical and valuable. Instead of making the QB adapt to them, they began adapting their training and playbook to the QB. That was so important to AZ that they hired the HC just for the QB. A first in the NFL and he wasn't even a successful college HC.

You can bet that the teams planning on taking one of these QB's is doing extensive film study on the offenses they ran in college. They're doing exactly what Andy Reid did because the offense Mahomes runs is nothing like what Alex Smith ran. Makes me wonder how much better might gun slinging QB's like Kingsbury and Andre Ware done if their HC's would have done what Reid did for Mahomes?

Didn't Andre Ware go from the run n shoot at Houston to the run n shoot in Detroit? And my memory of Kingsbury is foggy but as I recall he was a bit of a noodle arm. Kind of a poor man's Danny Weurful without the hardware. I have said repeatedly that much of these QBs' (and any player really) success is going to be tied to where they end up going and what kind of coaching situation they land in. Put them with an idiot coach and watch them fall flat on their faces. Put them with a smart coach and watch them soar.. It aint rocket surgery.

 

[AbeBeta]

If Ohio State can make him look like crap imagine what NFL defenses will do to him...

What a hot take!

Not like he'll be surrounded by better talent or anything

 

[Ekspozed]

With all the talk earlier in the season that the Cowboys should tank to possibly get a crack at Lawrence and all the talk about Lawrence going to be the next great QB, yet with so many people trying to make all their proclamations about Lawrence you would think he would have been an automatic lock for and gotten college football biggest award, the Heisman Trophy. But he didn't. As always, I'll wait and see what a player does in the NFL before making any proclamations.

So anyone who hasnt won a heisman shouldnt be the top pick. Got it.

Any other reasons you dont like lawrence?

 

[RonnieT24]

What a hot take!

Not like he'll be surrounded by better talent or anything

Yeah but LSU made him look like crap last year too. Once is a coincidence.. twice is a trend. Yes Lawrence lit up an unprepared Bama is freshman year.. but I really think that was just more about Saban not getting through to his guys just how good Clemson was.. We often forget that half the guys on an NCAA team are teenagers.. or just quit being teenagers within the last few months.. Besides.. the "better talent" thing is an interesting conundrum. If Lawrence goes to JAX he's going to be surrounded by bottom 5 talent.. It's going to a far cry from what he has experienced in college.

 

[McKDaddy]

You can see that but you apparently can't see this dude's development and evolution as an NFL passer? Nobody cares what is had less to do with. Results are what matters. Style points are for the BCS voters. I judge a player by what he does to help his team win not by some misguided notion about how "insiders" rate his skillset. Dak's is 10 times the passer now that he was his rookie year. If you can't see that then I can't help you and there's really nothing further to be said.

I was simply replying to your comment about his college exploits lifting a program.
I completely agree that he has improved considerably since entering the NFL.
However that proves how delusional people who thought he was a top 10 QB in his first two seasons were. He was riding the dominant skills around him.
Can he win games in the NFL? Absolutely.
Can he be the consistent difference maker when its a dogfight and he has to make the difference passing the ball? He hasn't thus far.
Unfortunately, even at his current level a lot of us still haven't seen a guy who can put the ball where it needs to be when you are playing really good defenses and you HAVE to beat the coverage with pinpoint throws to well covered receivers if the team is going to win. When you can't stop a drive with throws in the ground, over the head or behind the receiver.
This is 4+ seasons for him so this isn't some hot take. If I had faith he could take that next step, I would be all for re-signing him. Its the doubt that makes me reluctant to tie the franchise to him for the next X years.
Nothing against the person or competitor, just not sure he has that next level in him.