Lets Ponder the Patriots Deflationgate Issue

[Miller]

They got away with Spygate for seven years. They could handle balls for seven years. It doesn't take long to deflate balls. So why are we talking about other QBs liking balls in a particular way if it can't allegedly happen on a systematic level?

And who said there is a ten minute window?

The NFL said there is a 10 minute window. That's the rule according to the refs I've heard interviewed. The teams turn in their balls for inspection. The refs then have these balls for around 2 hours before the game. Then at 10 minutes before the game the balls are taken to the field. So you have to have a hidden area to do your 11-12 balls in 10 minutes, justlike old Tommy wants them..

Again, you are talking 16 games a year, different stadiums that aren't home, etc and you have someone specifically doing it to a certain psi. Really. And no other team or player or person intercepted or grabbed these balls and said..."hey, they don't feel the same." Come on.

 

[Miller]

He doesn't. He is just making stuff up and using that to justify his hatred of all things New England.

Patriots don't fumble a lot? They're cheaters!!
Brady has a better home record than road record? They're cheaters!!
Patriots line up in a formation no one has seen before? They're cheaters!!

Exactly. Again, I can't believe I'm talking this vs Cowboy football but people calling them cheaters for legal formations, etc is beyond me. At this point even if it was found to be the refs not properly measuring the balls or something outside their hands the call will always be "cover up" or "cheater." So why have a rational discussion. It used to be when a team didn't fumble a lot and a coach like Jimmy cut guys for it..."well that's smart." Now its an admission of something more sinister.

 

[khiladi]

The NFL said there is a 10 minute window. That's the rule according to the refs I've heard interviewed. The teams turn in their balls for inspection. The refs then have these balls for around 2 hours before the game. Then at 10 minutes before the game the balls are taken to the field. So you have to have a hidden area to do your 11-12 balls in 10 minutes, justlike old Tommy wants them..

Again, you are talking 16 games a year, different stadiums that aren't home, etc and you have someone specifically doing it to a certain psi. Really. And no other team or player or person intercepted or grabbed these balls and said..."hey, they don't feel the same." Come on.

Q: The confusion is that we’ve heard stories this week from equipment managers that they would over- or under-inflate footballs and hope to sneak them through inspection.

JD: “I can’t deny that that happens. Somebody may be lazy. I can tell you it’s not the norm. I know there are some guys that probably don’t do it quite as diligently as others, but they’re required to check the air. I don’t even question whether Walt and his crew did that.”

Q: Is there a protocol to check the footballs at halftime or after the game?

JD: “Once the balls are checked, the officials have no contact with them at all. The game goes on, they walk off the field, no one ever looks at a football after the game.”

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2...ls/fCtQ38pBjBFXId0WJC2wpL/story.html#comments

Considering that is the norm, I also don't think the referees have their eyes on the balls sitting two hours in a room, twiddling their fingers.

 

[khiladi]

Exactly. Again, I can't believe I'm talking this vs Cowboy football but people calling them cheaters for legal formations, etc is beyond me. At this point even if it was found to be the refs not properly measuring the balls or something outside their hands the call will always be "cover up" or "cheater." So why have a rational discussion. It used to be when a team didn't fumble a lot and a coach like Jimmy cut guys for it..."well that's smart." Now its an admission of something more sinister.

WHo called them a 'cheater'? I said it was more reflective of the refs incompetence. You can talk about legal formations all day, but the refs did not convey to the Ravens that the receiver was ineligible and the Patriots snapped the ball as soon as the declaration was made. Why even have a rule to declare a player ineligible, why even forbid offensive players from rushing to snap the ball prior to the two-minute warning to prevent defenses from substituting their players in enough time?

If that isn't in the spirit of play, what is? The Ravens effectively took a 14 point lead and it changed when this started happening. Prior to that, the Patriots and Brady started looking pedestrian.

 

[WPBCowboysFan]

That's not even what happened. This happened on the sidelines IN FULL VIEW of everybody and the Panthers were also engaging in it.

http://espn.go.com/blog/minnesota-v...of-game-ball-incident-during-panthers-vikings

Blandino also mentioned during this time:



The NFL was saying it was going to send out a specific reminder. So the Patriots tampered with balls OUTSIDE of view, did it AFTER this incident and AFTER THIS REMINDER and after Spygate...

Oh, you're just a hater

 

[khiladi]

People keep saying that the key to the investigation if that ten minute window, yet there is actually a 2 hour plus window since the balls are checked. And we are to automatically assume the balls are under lock and key during that time, yet even the above rep says that they pretty much forget about the balls once they are checked.

 

[Miller]

Q: The confusion is that we’ve heard stories this week from equipment managers that they would over- or under-inflate footballs and hope to sneak them through inspection.

JD: “I can’t deny that that happens. Somebody may be lazy. I can tell you it’s not the norm. I know there are some guys that probably don’t do it quite as diligently as others, but they’re required to check the air. I don’t even question whether Walt and his crew did that.”

Q: Is there a protocol to check the footballs at halftime or after the game?

JD: “Once the balls are checked, the officials have no contact with them at all. The game goes on, they walk off the field, no one ever looks at a football after the game.”

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2...ls/fCtQ38pBjBFXId0WJC2wpL/story.html#comments

Considering that is the norm, I also don't think the referees have their eyes on the balls sitting two hours in a room, twiddling their fingers.

Got it, so now the scandal includes sneaking/breaking into ref areas to pull it off...ones most likely with cameras ..lol

 

[khiladi]

Got it, so now the scandal includes sneaking/breaking into ref areas to pull it off...ones most likely with cameras ..lol

Got it.. So it shows the incompetence of the refs in one way as it favors the Pats, but not another as it disfavors the Pats...

Hasn't the NFL already come out with an official statement that the balls were deflated? Yes they did...

 

[Miller]

WHo called them a 'cheater'? I said it was more reflective of the refs incompetence. You can talk about legal formations all day, but the refs did not convey to the Ravens that the receiver was ineligible and the Patriots snapped the ball as soon as the declaration was made. Why even have a rule to declare a player ineligible, why even forbid offensive players from rushing to snap the ball prior to the two-minute warning to prevent defenses from substituting their players in enough time?

If that isn't in the spirit of play, what is? The Ravens effectively took a 14 point lead and it changed when this started happening. Prior to that, the Patriots and Brady started looking pedestrian.

Wrong again. The Ravens were told who was eligible and ineligible. Their beef was with having time to substitute. When timed they had 7-10 seconds. I'm not going to debate speed of subs but at that point...once it happens once, maybe the Ravens should be prepared and have a guy ready to sub in case.

 

[khiladi]

Again, when it first happened:

http://www.indystar.com/story/sport...ng-balls-afc-championship-win-colts/21990011/

"General manager Ryan Grigson was notified in the press box, and he contacted Mike Kensil, NFL director of football operations. Kensil then told the on-field officials at halftime, when the Patriots led 17-7. The Patriots erupted for 21 points in the third quarter, although it is not known if any of the balls were improperly inflated after halftime."

Stephen Holder himself says that Glauber's report was probably right, because Grigson was right behind him in the press box during this matter and was clearly agitated and started making phone calls.

All of this flies in the face of allegations that this was simply a trivial matter. It was the Colts GM that actually initiated the matter, and contacted the NFL director of football operations and it happened during the game.

Now the NFL is in spin mode.

 

[khiladi]

Wrong again. The Ravens were told who was eligible and ineligible. Their beef was with having time to substitute. When timed they had 7-10 seconds. I'm not going to debate speed of subs but at that point...once it happens once, maybe the Ravens should be prepared and have a guy ready to sub in case.

Really, did you watch the game... They knew the WR was ineligible, yet the defense shifted to cover him right when the ref was walking away from the WR, despite knowing he was ineligible?

That's absurd...



The Patriots are already lined up for the snap, the defense is just breaking huddle and setting formation, and the WR has just declared to the referee he is ineligible and the ref is just then walking away from him... The irony about the whole thing, is this video from the Pat fan doesn't even show when the WR declares him ineligible..

 

[BoysFan4ever]

So is the Commish going to be in Mr. Kraft's suite this Sunday?

They probably have a lot to catch up on.

 

[Miller]

Got it.. So it shows the incompetence of the refs in one way as it favors the Pats, but not another as it disfavors the Pats...

Hasn't the NFL already come out with an official statement that the balls were deflated? Yes they did...

You are so spinning and all over the place right now. Nothing I said had to do with the refs. All I said was the refs had the ball for 2 hours. You then quoted an article saying that MAYBE the refs weren't paying attention or in there......oh yeah, after admitting you knew nothing about the 10 minutes. My theory on ref incompetence stands regarding checking the balls with a proper gauge. Your quote proves that. But what you are discussing is 7 years of refs not watching balls for 2 hours, people sneaking around in dark corners letting air out of balls...in rooms, as shown by Pats ballboy, that have cameras. I mean stick to a story. You are grasping at straws. Again, if they are guilty and found guilty, no skin off my back. I'll then wag my finger. But right now we have zero except some deflated balls that may or may not have been 1-2 psi off for one game.

 

[Miller]

Really, did you watch the game... They knew the WR was ineligible, yet the defense shifted to cover him right when the ref was walking away from the WR, despite knowing he was ineligible?

That's absurd...



The Patriots are already lined up for the snap, the defense is just breaking huddle and setting formation, and the WR has just declared to the referee he is ineligible and the ref is just then walking away from him... The irony about the whole thing, is this video from the Pat fan doesn't even show when the WR declares him ineligible..

From everything read, even your man Tony Dungy, they announced who was eligible and ineligible. The fact that it confused the Ravens means it worked. When they reviewed tapes after they said Ravens had seven seconds. The ref announces before the ball is put in play. I'm just telling you what has been reported all over on it. The Ravens were mad because they said they weren't given time to sub.

 

[khiladi]

From everything read, even your man Tony Dungy, they announced who was eligible and ineligible. The fact that it confused the Ravens means it worked. When they reviewed tapes after they said Ravens had seven seconds. The ref announces before the ball is put in play.

So you didn't watch the game...

Dungy says nothing of the sort regarding that play.

He said multiple things, among them that the way the Patriots are doing gives no time for the defense to respond, which effectively contradicts your point that they had enough time. He says in one case it clearly violated the rules:

“In the Baltimore game, [Shane] Vereen reported as ineligible several times,” Dungy explained. “If he stays in the game he must report again and continue to be ineligible. He must come out of the game for one play or there has to be a time out for him to play as an eligible receiver. On the touchdown drive Vereen played one play as ineligible and then played the next play in an eligible position. There should have been a penalty.”

In another, he's essentially being sarcastic:

“The NFL is going to have to do something about the Patriots’ ineligible-eligible substitution game,” former NFL head coach and current NBC Sports analyst Tony Dungy told PFT by email on Friday. “It is nothing but an intent to deceive and they are doing it very well. They’re reporting so fast and going so quickly the defense can’t respond. In fact, the officials can’t keep up.”

He is saying the way they are doing it, the defense CANNOT respond at all.

In fact, the same article mentions the problem when it says:

The broader problem is that the Patriots, specifically against Baltimore, combined the legal ineligible-eligible receiver maneuver with a hurry-up offense to confuse both the defense and the officials. At field level, the audio from the referee’s microphone isn’t as clear as it is for folks in the seats or who are watching the game at home. Along with the overall confusion that arises when a team tries to snap the ball quickly, it becomes too much for a defense to fairly process — which is one of the reasons New England does it.

So explain to me when that ref spoke through a microphone that even the audience would know?

In Dungy’s view, it’s no different than making quick personnel changes in a no-huddle attack or using extra players in the huddle who run off the field seconds before the snap. The defense needs to have a fair chance to know who they’ll be facing, and until the NFL stops the Patriots from deliberately confusing defenses and rushing to the line to snap the ball, the only way to combat the scheme will be for defenses to bend a rule or two of their own.

It's not about confusion, which is why the notion that it's like rejecting a trick play is obfuscation. It's impossible to defend, because the defense cannot set it's defense in time even if it knows, because the only time the defense could possible find out is right close to when the ball is snapped, which is when the Patriots time the ineligible receiver.

Like I said, it reflects on the incompetence of the NFL refs to allow it to happen.

 

[BringBackThatOleTimeBoys]

Dude (khiladi) you do realize that EVERYONE of your responses comes with built in excuses? Right? The reason you didn't get a response out of me yesterday when I posted the article because you posted 3 follow up posts and all of them had prefaces or built in factors that would make your theory true. It doesn't work that way.

Reminds me of someone this week at the airport screaming and cursing making a minor spectacle of himself - he had no idea how angry he was.

This and other members seems to have PLENTY of time on their hands so I assume they are retired or their supervisor doesn't care what they do. When someone hates, hates, and hates on someone - you wonder about them. Add to that before all the facts are in, this and several other members of this lynching mob cherry-pick their facts.

Every team bends or breaks rules - I posted a detailed list and it was largely ignored because it's not what most on this thread what to hear. You know that saying you are entitled to you own opinions, but not your own facts.

Some will scream to themselves: "Not true!!!!" but all teams cheat. It escapes me that some of the flamers damning Belichick willfully ignore that Jimmy Johnson admitted to videotaping other teams....he probably did other things questionable. Doesn't matter - Jimmy was a Cowboy! Just like many here suspect if Josh Brent was with another team, members would rip him to shreds.

For those spinning a picture the Patriots are the most skilled and prolific cheaters in the NFL, this absurd bandwidth on them while ignoring the other teams are not remotely clean hurts their case. This is one of the many things Goodell has failed on - getting teams to play by the rules.

The investigation is not complete with a lot of work without enough facts to even amount to a preponderance of evidence.

I'm sure this post will be ignored unless one of the said flamers quotes it with their customized facts.

So continue to behave like that guy I met at the airport that may be suicidal.

 

[khiladi]

You are so spinning and all over the place right now. Nothing I said had to do with the refs. All I said was the refs had the ball for 2 hours. You then quoted an article saying that MAYBE the refs weren't paying attention or in there......oh yeah, after admitting you knew nothing about the 10 minutes. My theory on ref incompetence stands regarding checking the balls with a proper gauge. Your quote proves that. But what you are discussing is 7 years of refs not watching balls for 2 hours, people sneaking around in dark corners letting air out of balls...in rooms, as shown by Pats ballboy, that have cameras. I mean stick to a story. You are grasping at straws. Again, if they are guilty and found guilty, no skin off my back. I'll then wag my finger. But right now we have zero except some deflated balls that may or may not have been 1-2 psi off for one game.

Did I say all that? Did the NFL come out with an official statement that balls were under-inflated or not? If the former, this means that no matter what you spin, the balls were deflated within the context of what happens in the football game, meaning it clearly can be done within that context your denying it can happen.. It was out of the required rules of the game, otherwise an actual investigation would be absurd and redundant and pointless.

"While the evidence thus far supports the conclusion that footballs that were under-inflated were used by the Patriots in the first half, the footballs were properly inflated for the second half and confirmed at the conclusion of the game to have remained properly inflated," the NFL's statement said.

The statement said the NFL wants to know "specifically whether any noncompliance was the result of deliberate action. We have not made any judgments on these points and will not do so until we have concluded our investigation and considered all of the relevant evidence."

They have said the Patriots did not comply with the rules, thus the words "WHETHER ANY NONCOMPLIANCE" but they have not said it was deliberate or not, which is what they are trying to determine.

Again, I ask you why is it impossible that the Patriots would try and deflate footballs to protect the ball from being turned over in rainy conditions?

 

[khiladi]

Why are you people consistently arguing about PSI values when the NFL has already said the balls did not fulfill the rules as stipulated and the Patriots were NOT complaint.. You guys can't even get over this point. The NFL has said they were deflated and evidence points to it.

 

[Miller]

Did I say all that? Did the NFL come out with an official statement that balls were under-inflated or not? If the former, this means that no matter what you spin, the balls were deflated within the context of what happens in the football game, meaning it clearly can be done within that context your denying it can happen.. It was out of the required rules of the game, otherwise an actual investigation would be absurd and redundant and pointless.



They have said the Patriots did not comply with the rules, thus the words "WHETHER ANY NONCOMPLIANCE" but they have not said it was deliberate or not, which is what they are trying to determine.

Again, I ask you why is it impossible that the Patriots would try and deflate footballs to protect the ball from being turned over in rainy conditions?

Please make up your mind!!!!!

You either don't care or aren't reading. I never said they couldn't or would not do it. I stated clearly 50 times that I'm being an objective observer showing how easily it could be thst the Pats weren't cheating and how impossible doing this would be. You are the one who has turned an investigation into a 7 year reign of ball deflation, cheating, sneaking and pit stop timing accuracy while deflating balls in some Borne Identity plot. You are spinning in circles

 

[khiladi]

Please make up your mind!!!!!

You either don't care or aren't reading. I never said they couldn't or would not do it. I stared clearly 50 times that I'm being an objective observer showing how easily it wasn't the Pats cheating. You are the one who has turned an investigation into a 7 year reign of ball deflation, cheating, sneaking and pit stop timing accuracy while deflating balls in some Borne Identity plot. You are spinning in circles

Your the one attributing positions to me. Let's go through this again:

1. I said that evidence points to the balls being deflated. The NFL confirms this.
2. I responded to your bringing up Drew's critique of Sharp. I never made any specific conclusions about it, other than flat out saying that Drew's objections were off and said why. I didn't say this proves the Patriots deflated the ball every game. Even Sharp does not assert that. Your the one trying to argue it isn't fishy, while I'm saying that Sharp's critique is reasonable that it is fishy. I did not derive ANY conclusions out of it. For all you know, I could hold that they have probably used this technique from time to time.
3. YOU then made an assumption that I said they were cheating every game and that requires a lot of effort. I said time does not necessarily matter, because Bellichek was cheating for 7 straight years regarding Spy gate. I didn't say they deflated every game ball every time.
4. Somebody brought up Minnesota and I said the two aren't even comparable First of all, this happened in full view on the sidelines and the Panthers did it. And second, the league sent out a notice, which would imply the Patriots knowingly broke rules after the fact.

You are the one spinning circles, not I.