Lets Ponder the Patriots Deflationgate Issue

[Staubacher]

The Patriots balls deflated sometime between when the refs checked them for proper inflation pre-game and when they read illegal at the half.

When the balls were then properly reinflated at the half, they remained that way after the game.

So it was not weather/atmospheric conditions, because those did not magically change considerably from one half to the other. In fact it presumably got colder as the evening wore on.

What did change was the Patriots doing something to the balls to deflate them. They were not able to doctor the footballs after proper inflation at halftime and the footballs remained at a legal level.

People can call it sour grapes, but several teams at least have been on to this well before this particular game. The Patriots were suspected of this and when the balls were checked, the very thing they were being accused of was exactly what happened.

It's common sense to assume after all these FACTS that they cheated. Calling people "haters" like a child does and conjuring up convoluted scenarios is a fools errand.

The explanation is simple and it is the one that makes the most sense.

A team already known to be cheaters cheated again.

 

[BoysFan4ever]

I hate to be the one to post this but Tom has a cold. What an awful week for him. Deflated footballs. Hurt feelings. And now a cold.

Life can be so cruel.

 

[Staubacher]

I hate to be the one to post this but Tom has a cold. What an awful week for him. Deflated footballs. Hurt feelings. And now a cold.

Life can be so cruel.

Guilty immune system lol

 

[Miller]

Your the one attributing positions to me. Let's go through this again:

1. I said that evidence points to the balls being deflated. The NFL confirms this.
2. I responded to your bringing up Drew's critique of Sharp. I never made any specific conclusions about it, other than flat out saying that Drew's objections were off and said why. I didn't say this proves the Patriots deflated the ball every game. Even Sharp does not assert that. Your the one trying to argue it isn't fishy, while I'm saying that Sharp's critique is reasonable that it is fishy. I did not derive ANY conclusions out of it. For all you know, I could hold that they have probably used this technique from time to time.
3. YOU then made an assumption that I said they were cheating every game and that requires a lot of effort. I said time does not necessarily matter, because Bellichek was cheating for 7 straight years regarding Spy gate. I didn't say they deflated every game ball every time.
4. Somebody brought up Minnesota and I said the two aren't even comparable First of all, this happened in full view on the sidelines and the Panthers did it. And second, the league sent out a notice, which would imply the Patriots knowingly broke rules after the fact.

You are the one spinning circles, not I.

How am I spinning? My position has been clear for a week now and I've stated it ad nauseam. To give you a clue regarding what your doing, just above you said it would easy for the Pats to do this and get away with it for all the years they didn't fumble. YOU posted the fumble stat over and over. When I brought up the 10 minutes you didn't have a clue but then turned my own argument into one saying "well then the refs were lax for 2 hours." You created a new scenario and argument even though that then helps me AND flies in the face of being able to get into refs lockerroms for those 7 years. You are creating competing arguments on the fly. I'm fine if you think they are cheaters just stick to the conspiracy though. My argument hasn't changed...waiting for investigation, could have been refs, fumbles can easily be explained.

One of the posts stated that if the league finds them innocent then there is a cover up. That right there shows where your head is at and the people assuming they are guilty

 

[BoysFan4ever]

Guilty immune system lol

His life is falling apart!

I just thought it was funny that that was even news. Ok Tom Brady has a cold. So do 200 million other Americans.

 

[khiladi]

How am I spinning? My position has been clear for a week now and I've stated it ad nauseam. To give you a clue regarding what your doing, just above you said it would easy for the Pats to do this and get away with it for all the years they didn't fumble. YOU posted the fumble stat over and over. When I brought up the 10 minutes you didn't have a clue but then turned my own argument into one saying "well then the refs were lax for 2 hours." You created a new scenario and argument even though that then helps me AND flies in the face of being able to get into refs lockerroms for those 7 years. You are creating competing arguments on the fly. I'm fine if you think they are cheaters just stick to the conspiracy though. My argument hasn't changed...waiting for investigation, could have been refs, fumbles can easily be explained.

One of the posts stated that if the league finds them innocent then there is a cover up. That right there shows where your head is at and the people assuming they are guilty

You are spinning what I said. I never attributed any position to you and I never said the Patriots were deflating balls every game. You keep attributing positions to me.

I asked you where you got the 10 minutes, because I always heard 2 hours. And why did you bring it up? Because you were saying it was absurd to argue that somebody could have deflated the balls in 10 minutes.

And as I said prior, the NFL ALREADY confirmed the balls were DEFLATED. This is also why I said whether 10 minutes or 2 hours, the balls were deflated irrespective, i.e. IT HAPPENED. You keep talking about PSI and other issues, but again, the NFL confirmed the balls were deflated. We are already PAST THAT POINT.

I brought up the fumble stat over and over again, because it's effectively a strong argument for something fishy. I only brought it up in the context that arguing it is a one time thing for Bellichek that doesn't necessarily wash. And pretty much this is confirmed by everybody in this context and the background of Bellichek. I didn't say they did it all the time. And this statistic is being talked about by everybody.

I said the NFL wants it dead, because of an integrity issue. It makes them look incompetent in a whole season of incompetence. It is why they haven't interviewed a single NFL player. I didn't say they were in cahoots with the Patriots and their cheating and they are rigging the SB. They will admit something happened, but say it was some random act. They don't really care. It's the same thing they did with Spygate.

It's blown up because of internet and the media. Just like Spygate until Spectre got involved.

 

[Miller]

The Patriots balls deflated sometime between when the refs checked them for proper inflation pre-game and when they read illegal at the half.

When the balls were then properly reinflated at the half, they remained that way after the game.

So it was not weather/atmospheric conditions, because those did not magically change considerably from one half to the other. In fact it presumably got colder as the evening wore on.

What did change was the Patriots doing something to the balls to deflate them. They were not able to doctor the footballs after proper inflation at halftime and the footballs remained at a legal level.

People can call it sour grapes, but several teams at least have been on to this well before this particular game. The Patriots were suspected of this and when the balls were checked, the very thing they were being accused of was exactly what happened.

It's common sense to assume after all these FACTS that they cheated. Calling people "haters" like a child does and conjuring up convoluted scenarios is a fools errand.

The explanation is simple and it is the one that makes the most sense.

A team already known to be cheaters cheated again.

But what you are stating isn't FACT. We don't know when they were deflated. We don't know if the refs checked them. We don't know if they were turned in to be checked underinflated, the refs missed it and then they went out. We don't know what the balls were inflated to at halftime. We don't know what the Colts balls were inflated to the start. But hey, keep crucifying without these facts.

 

[khiladi]

But what you are stating isn't FACT. We don't know when they were deflated. We don't know if the refs checked them. We don't know if they were turned in to be checked underinflated, the refs missed it and then they went out. We don't know what the balls were inflated to at halftime. We don't know what the Colts balls were inflated to the start. But hey, keep crucifying without these facts.

Again,

"While the evidence thus far supports the conclusion that footballs that were under-inflated were used by the Patriots in the first half, the footballs were properly inflated for the second half and confirmed at the conclusion of the game to have remained properly inflated," the NFL's statement said.

The statement said the NFL wants to know "specifically whether any noncompliance was the result of deliberate action. We have not made any judgments on these points and will not do so until we have concluded our investigation and considered all of the relevant evidence."

The Patriots ALONE did it. The Patriots did not COMPLY. The ball was then PROPERLY inflated at half-time and remained PROPERLY inflated till the end of the game, and did not lose any air because of weather or atmospheric conditions. The only issue they are determining is whether this was DELIBERATE deflation on their part before the game.

Like I said, we are past that part. this is the OFFICIAL NFL statement as quoted by CNN.

 

[BoysFan4ever]

You are spinning what I said. I never attributed any position to you and I never said the Patriots were deflating balls every game. You keep attributing positions to me.

I asked you where you got the 10 minutes, because I always heard 2 hours. And why did you bring it up? Because you were saying it was absurd to argue that somebody could have deflated the balls in 10 minutes.

And as I said prior, the NFL ALREADY confirmed the balls were DEFLATED. This is also why I said whether 10 minutes or 2 hours, the balls were deflated irrespective, i.e. IT HAPPENED. You keep talking about PSI and other issues, but again, the NFL confirmed the balls were deflated. We are already PAST THAT POINT.

I brought up the fumble stat over and over again, because it's effectively a strong argument for something fishy. I only brought it up in the context that arguing it is a one time thing for Bellichek that doesn't necessarily wash. And pretty much this is confirmed by everybody in this context and the background of Bellichek. I didn't say they did it all the time. And this statistic is being talked about by everybody.

I said the NFL wants it dead, because of an integrity issue. It makes them look incompetent in a whole season of incompetence. It is why they haven't interviewed a single NFL player. I didn't say they were in cahoots with the Patriots and their cheating and they are rigging the SB. They will admit something happened, but say it was some random act. They don't really care. It's the same thing they did with Spygate.

It's blown up because of internet and the media. Just like Spygate until Spectre got involved.

My head is spinning! Which happens frequently.

Too bad the NFL is no longer about the actual games really. Just one thing after the other the past season. It's a shame.

 

[Miller]

Again,



The Patriots ALONE did it. The Patriots did not COMPLY. The only issue they are determining is whether this was DELIBERATE on their part.

1) The response wasn't to you regarding anything you said

2) I didn't say the balls were inflated properly. Never have.

3) the post I responded to had a bunch of conjecture as fact!!Thus I made a list of things not fact

4) Y'all need to read a little more in detail because I've explained all of this 500 times. Maybe RIF

5) Your last statement is still conjecture. Is it likely they were turned in under-inflated? Yes. But there has been zero proof that its for sure. Also, you sure keep pointing to DELIBERATE yet despite your understanding you make a ton of blanket statements regarding fumbles, years of cheating, cover ups by the league, etc. Very comical you seem to get the notion, yet its not in anything you profess to believe. You can't just make blanket assertions on the fly and then backtrack and reform new ones constantly.

Why don't we just go back to agreeing about JG being overrated

 

[Staubacher]

But what you are stating isn't FACT. We don't know when they were deflated. We don't know if the refs checked them. We don't know if they were turned in to be checked underinflated, the refs missed it and then they went out. We don't know what the balls were inflated to at halftime. We don't know what the Colts balls were inflated to the start. But hey, keep crucifying without these facts.

Crucifying? Can some of you shill for the Patriots without the fanatical hyperbole or childish namecalling?

 

[Miller]

Crucifying? Can some of you shill for the Patriots without the fanatical hyperbole or childish namecalling?

"Crucifying" isn't a name calling incident but saying someone with objectivity who is a Cowboy fan is a "shill for the Patriots" is. Learning is fun.

 

[DFWJC]

Again,



The Patriots ALONE did it. The Patriots did not COMPLY. The ball was then PROPERLY inflated at half-time and remained PROPERLY inflated till the end of the game, and did not lose any air because of weather or atmospheric conditions. The only issue they are determining is whether this was DELIBERATE deflation on their part before the game.

Like I said, we are past that part. this is the OFFICIAL NFL statement as quoted by CNN.

Not for me, but just wanted to add....

I agree that "deliberate" is the key here.

Still, any comment that the balls didn't deflate some in the second half is not necessarily true. All we know is that the balls stayed above the legal limit.
That's basically the same for the Colts' balls in the first half....not they didn't deflate some, but that they stayed above the limit.

You can probably assume that any balls inflated at halftime were inflated to the upper end of the range, but we don't know that for sure.
Also, if the second half balls were inflated at or near game-day temperatures, they would not be expected to deflate in the first place.

 

[Staubacher]

"Crucifying" isn't a name calling incident but saying someone with objectivity who is a Cowboy fan is a "shill for the Patriots" is. Learning is fun.

Crucifying is an inane term to use in context of discussing
A) a football issue
B) a team already proven to be cheaters being looked into as cheating again, due to enough evidence to warrant the investigation of said cheating

Take Choir Boy Tom Brady's cue "this isn't ISIS". So leave the inflammatory, over-the-top words like crucify to more serious matters in life and death. Frankly you just sound crazy using it here.

 

[Miller]

Crucifying is an inane term to use in context of discussing
A) a football issue
B) a team already proven to be cheaters being looked into as cheating again, due to enough evidence to warrant the investigation of said cheating

Take Choir Boy Tom Brady's cue "this isn't ISIS". So leave the inflammatory, over-the-top words like crucify to more serious matters in life and death. Frankly you just sound crazy using it here.

Crucify is a verb that has a meaning of "criticize (someone) severely and unrelentingly." Isn't that what you're doing with the Patriots? Save the feigning disgust for someone else. You look silly. Again, learn something besides the art of jumping to conclusions and partial reasoning.

 

[khiladi]

Not for me, but just wanted to add....

I agree that "deliberate" is the key here.

Still, any comment that the balls didn't deflate some in the second half is not necessarily true. All we know is that the balls stayed above the legal limit.
That's basically the same for the Colts' balls in the first half....not they didn't deflate some, but that they stayed above the limit.

You can probably assume that any balls inflated at halftime were inflated to the upper end of the range, but we don't know that for sure.
Also, if the second half balls were inflated at or near game-day temperatures, they would not be expected to deflate in the first place.

Yes, I agree deliberate is the key here. But irrespective, the NFL is essentially saying they concluded that the Patriots were non-compliant and somebody messed with the balls screwing them up intentionally or unintentionally.

And I would assume this decision incorporates your reservation, because I hope with all these forensic scientists they brought in, they chose one's that could understood basic math:

(half time pressure - end of game pressure) = x

(beginning ball pressure -x ) > half-time pressure to an unacceptable limit

Thus, non compliance...

This also clearly points to the fact that somehow, somebody complained about the balls during the game which caused the NFL to correct the balls pressure. The original reports from the guy who broke the report in Indy stated the GM of the Colts got a phone call around half-time and became agitated and then contacted the Director of NFL officiating or whatever. Stephen Holder, a reported in Indy, seemed to confirm this the day after as well when he said the Indy GM was with him in the press box and said the GM got agitated and then started making phone calls at around the time the original reporter broke it.

Somebody leaked what happened and the above is the only explanation that would make sense for it to explode in such a way.

Further, the NFL nowhere implicated the Colts and nowhere did they say that the balls of the Colts were deflated such that this would explain the Patriots did. Like I said, the NFL has already declared the balls were deflated, unintentionally or intentionally.

 

[Staubacher]

Just can't help yourself lol

Crucify is a verb that has a meaning of "criticize (someone) severely and unrelentingly." Isn't that what you're doing with the Patriots? Save the feigning disgust for someone else. You look silly. Again, learn something besides the art of jumping to conclusions and partial reasoning.

 

[khiladi]

1) The response wasn't to you regarding anything you said

2) I didn't say the balls were inflated properly. Never have.

3) the post I responded to had a bunch of conjecture as fact!!Thus I made a list of things not fact

4) Y'all need to read a little more in detail because I've explained all of this 500 times. Maybe RIF

5) Your last statement is still conjecture. Is it likely they were turned in under-inflated? Yes. But there has been zero proof that its for sure. Also, you sure keep pointing to DELIBERATE yet despite your understanding you make a ton of blanket statements regarding fumbles, years of cheating, cover ups by the league, etc. Very comical you seem to get the notion, yet its not in anything you profess to believe. You can't just make blanket assertions on the fly and then backtrack and reform new ones constantly.

Why don't we just go back to agreeing about JG being overrated

I only like this because of the JG comment..

 

[Staubacher]

Yes, I agree deliberate is the key here. But irrespective, the NFL is essentially saying they concluded that the Patriots were non-compliant and somebody messed with the balls screwing them up intentionally or unintentionally.

And I would assume this decision incorporates your reservation, because I hope with all these forensic scientists they brought in, they chose one's that could understood basic math:

(half time pressure - end of game pressure) = x

(beginning ball pressure -x ) > half-time pressure to an unacceptable limit

Thus, non compliance...

This also clearly points to the fact that somehow, somebody complained about the balls during the game which caused the NFL to correct the balls pressure. The original reports from the guy who broke the report in Indy stated the GM of the Colts got a phone call around half-time and became agitated and then contacted the Director of NFL officiating or whatever. Stephen Holder, a reported in Indy, seemed to confirm this the day after as well when he said the Indy GM was with him in the press box and said the GM got agitated and then started making phone calls at around the time the original reporter broke it.

Somebody leaked what happened and the above is the only explanation that would make sense for it to explode in such a way.

Further, the NFL nowhere implicated the Colts and nowhere did they say that the balls of the Colts were deflated such that this would explain the Patriots did. Like I said, the NFL has already declared the balls were deflated, unintentionally or intentionally.

Well said.

It's funny the people here wanting to boast about being "objective" will only give the Patriots the benefit of doubt and no one else.

The NFL would not be investigating if both teams footballs had a equal and normal psi drop.

The Colts and Ravens and perhaps other teams would not have been complaining about the Patriots having deflated footballs just because they are sore losers. I guess it's ok to assume those teams are dishonest and corrupt but not a team that has a record of flagrant cheating.

So much reminds me of the Lance Armstrong saga. People blindly defending him. All the dozens of people around him saying that he doped were all liars, axes to grind, corrupt, evil, etc. People calling his critics crucifiers and haters.

Well he was a liar and a cheat.

So is Belichick and the Patriots.

 

[Nightman]

The refs said they checked all the balls before the and they all were compliant

The Pats then had possession of all the balls before the game

The balls were tested at halftime and all the NE were illegal and all the INDY were still legal

The balls were re-inflated and stayed legally inflated for the rest of the game

Those are the facts and that is why the NFL is looking into the matter. This is the last thing the league wanted going into the SB, but if they ignored it, it would be so much worse. All the other stuff is just semantics and conjecture.

The only issue is finding out who, how and when the balls were deflated. They may never get the whole story, but if the team stonewalls that is just as damning as an admission. It is only a few people that could have access to the balls. It's not that complicated.