Losing to win

iceberg

rock music matters
Messages
34,404
Reaction score
7,932
I accept that my team stinks right now. So why would I want them to "win the East" just so they are gifted a playoff appearance to be embarrassed by Seattle or Arizona on a Saturday afternoon? To me, that's not fun. The winner of the East this season has no business being in the playoffs. Heck, 95% of the league has no business being in the playoffs

then that 95% should just quit playing and the prize then becomes the highest draft pick possible?

can you honestly imagine what would happen if jones said "ok, lose it guys!"

i would have to think:
sponsorships would die off
try selling tickets to a team trying to lose. see how that works. i mean there must be a lot of people with $ to burn saying "ya know, i think i'll pay $800 to take my kids to a cowboys game so i can watch them lose so i can tell the kids "it's ok, we're gonna get a high draft pick" only to be unable to answer the following question of "who we gonna draft???"
and try getting dez, romo, jason, collins and the rest of the team to accept TRYING to lose.

all for a pick we can't define, have no idea where it will be overall, no idea who may trade ahead of us if someone is *that good* and no guarantee that setting a losing mentality will suddenly turn around with the sole reason we tanked the season for.

flip it one more step - how would YOU like to be that player we tanked a season for? can you imagine the pressure the same fans would then put on the poor guy?

so why play? even if there's nothing left to play for, why bother? you're out of the season, go home. anyone with a record a little better than you at this point gets a pass but the rest must quit cause y'all can't win it anyway.

why play then?
 

fortdick

Well-Known Member
Messages
6,496
Reaction score
745
The problem with the "losing to win attitude", as the OP allied it, is that once you get an attitude that it is acceptable to lose, you won't get rid of it without getting rid of the people that have it.

I would like to see someone walk up to Witten and tell him to lose a game.
 

fortdick

Well-Known Member
Messages
6,496
Reaction score
745
Nobody is saying the players should try to lose.

Keep mowing down those straw men though.

Who should try to lose, then? Should the coaches sabotage the game plan and hope they won't notice? Talk about straw man!
 

movaughn88

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,759
Reaction score
3,481
This board is reaching some kind of breaking point. Someone takes the time to write out their thoughts in a post, and is immediately replied with a child-like response that they didn't read it and refuse to, but it sounds like something they disagree with so they will be snarky and derail any attempt at a discussion.

I see both viewpoints of win/draft as well, but I think one of the best points Iceberg makes is you can't turn off the season and just flip it back on next one. The team didn't quit last night, and very well could have, and that will serve them well this year and more importantly, going forward. Sure it wasn't pretty football, but we saw positive contributions from guys who will absolutely have roles going forward.

Lucky is turning into a real weapon, DLaw had a good game, as did the a lot of the defense. These guys are young and their confidence in their own abilities to perform during actual NFL games is a huge intangible. Losing out could absolutely turn off the "drive" of a player or two who might make game-winning plays in the future.
 

IrishAnto

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,068
Reaction score
1,997
taken from the banner thread, but i kinda wanted to call it out on it's own and address the topic itself, not the banner that many for valid reasons of their own, think this is in poor taste.

i'm not one who does (think it is in poor taste)

you see this mindset..."losing to win" i'll call it, has so many flaws that i can't help but think those doing it really have no idea what it takes to keep a team up and going and ensure that going into next year you don't do something you can't just "turn off". cause in this instance how do you turn off "losing to win" as a mindset? you can't. you've said it's OK now and people will run with it on their own terms beyond anything you can coach or control.

as for the banner in the forums calling them out, poking them with a stick, gleeful "revenge"? maybe. but how many times have we seen reality have to call out threads just to get people to stop ranting and raving in every thread possible, venting their own "anger" with every post? how many times has reality had to put a ENOUGH NEGATIVITY headline in the forums. how much "in poor taste" is it for people to come in here and do crap like that which *has* to be called out.

time and time again.

and even a zone created where they can rant and rave and be as negative as they wish - whatever makes them feel positive.

i'd say all those things have been done, many a dozen times by now. yet people still must "vent" to an overly annoying degree and in every post find a way to say something like "man, congrats on wittens 1000th catch!!! what an amazing accomplishment!!! surprised as hell he did it under garrett who can't coach!!! or - how jones found him who knows cause jones sucks! - and so on and so on.

how many threads have you seen drop to just that?

time and time again.

maybe it is in poor taste but there's only so much even "the good guys" can take and the high road, we'll get back to it later, i'm sure. but there are in fact times you just feel the need to butt-slap a child for acting like a child. always trying to go the "high road" just isn't possible or there never would have been a high road to always take. it would be the "only way".

now - if we did in fact lose out by trying, great. we get a good draft pick. historically what have we done with high draft picks? many of these people who want us to win out to get a higher draft pick will be happy with each loss and yet when the draft comes, start their "jones is gonna screw it up" postings. so why even root for a team, to lose, so you can ***** about the draft pick you got, only so we can go into the next year *****ing that we didn't take their pet cats and all those losses were for nothing because we didn't take THEIR favorite player on the board at the time.

time and time again.

so no. while i'd love to draft high that means a painful season and those are hard enough to get through even when losing due to all the stupid mistakes we make play in and play out. all those calling out to lose the rest of the games, i am curious, did they also go through 1-15? that was no fun but i kept wearing my jersey and i kept saying "one day" and the very next year i moved to dallas and bought my 1st NFL ticket to see the cowboys play the chargers and we started off that year with a win. felt fantastic.

the other day in going through old paperwork and things i thought i'd thrown out LONG ago - i found another ticket i bought for me and 2 friends to see the cowboys, still in irving at the time, play seattle. it was a pretty amazing game overall. what was so special about that game? well, other than sitting there with my friends?

oh yea, a rushing record by a man called emmitt. yea, that was so damn cool to see live and still having that ticket to the game? pretty special to me.

so i don't watch people paid millions to lose. i don't care if the season is over, i don't care if we'll lose a few spots in the draft and may cost whinerboys all over the world angst that they just lost 5% more of a chance to get their pet cat and i certainly don't care if someone is "offended" that there are those of us happy to see us win.

let me ask those who say TANK IT a question - how do you turn that off? you have just set a price on losing and placed a random draft pick somewhere in the future that today has ZERO value over having players play through adversity and "learning" to win when it's one of the most difficult things you can do?

how do you "next year" say OK NOW WE MEAN IT!!!! you've shown that you get hit and you fall down.

you don't get back up and try again. you wait until fictitious help comes along in the draft and next year will erase the bitter memories we're unfortunately creating this year? how do you tell kids who watch "oh, it's ok to lose if it helps you later" when the definition of "lose" is now welded to "ok"? regardless of the reason this would be YOUR reason, or belief, we'll somehow get the next great qb in the draft by just losing out. the team will come back next year going "gosh, i'm glad thats over with, we now have johnny football (not THAT one) here who will save the team!"

you are in fact teaching them and people who watch that you feel it's ok to lose in order to get help to win because you're simply incapable of doing it yourself. watching this team that's not far off, now is it? oh, except we're better than 1-15 already and stranger things have happened.

yes we may get blown out *if* some crazy season or reason 8-8 gets us in there. we sure *may*. but if we get there do we tank it to slide up 1 spot in the draft?

do we tank it and tell the team "sure, y'all suck and go ahead and lose so we can get some winners in here".

or do we tank it and then have parents watch kids go "hey i'm losing so i can get better later" in choices they make in their life.

how can it ever be possible to instill a losing mindset in a team and then turn around and expect them to later NOT want to tank things for their own reason.

would you want to play for a team who said "hey, we suck so lose"?

i damn sure don't want to watch one just for some oddball chance we MAY get a good qb in the draft who MAY be as good as romo one day (who didn't cost us a draft pick) or maybe hell, another clairborne is taken to upset so many cause they just suck. then that self-same group of "ok to lose" will be mad they went through a season of loss to get to a better pick only to not take who they felt we should, invalidating the entire premise of "losing to win" will be back in here *****ing about that.

time and time again.

losing won't guarantee a single thing except that we've accepted it. in this instance "we" isn't the general fan but the cowboys themselves. the day this team accepts losing is a path to winning well then what the hell is the point of even watching the game? so i'll end it by asking that - those who WANT us to lose out for a draft pick...

...you gonna still watch every single game? you gonna get happy when we fumble, throw in int, or get sacked and dance around for the other team or hate it? you gonna tell yourself as you watch that crap that it's ok - johnny football must be coming to save the day? (still not *that* one). you gonna get pissed when we do things like...i dunno...win?

are you really *that* ... "fan"?

if so more power to you and great. at least you're firm in your convictions and will stand by the team, even when they are not even trying or don't want to. you do that.

i think it sucks and i will +1 it when those people are called out and have no issue at all blowing the **** out of the bridge on the "high road" a few times to express how stupid i feel that line of thinking is.

their right to *****. my right to return fire.

time and time again.

To me it’s not tanking per say but there’s a point in the season you might as well start giving young players a bigger role to see exactly what you have going forward which will help your decisions regarding free agency and the draft.

In doing so you’re probably going to reduce your chances of winning but might improve your chances of winning it all further down the line.
 

iceberg

rock music matters
Messages
34,404
Reaction score
7,932
This board is reaching some kind of breaking point. Someone takes the time to write out their thoughts in a post, and is immediately replied with a child-like response that they didn't read it and refuse to, but it sounds like something they disagree with so they will be snarky and derail any attempt at a discussion.

I see both viewpoints of win/draft as well, but I think one of the best points Iceberg makes is you can't turn off the season and just flip it back on next one. The team didn't quit last night, and very well could have, and that will serve them well this year and more importantly, going forward. Sure it wasn't pretty football, but we saw positive contributions from guys who will absolutely have roles going forward.

Lucky is turning into a real weapon, DLaw had a good game, as did the a lot of the defense. These guys are young and their confidence in their own abilities to perform during actual NFL games is a huge intangible. Losing out could absolutely turn off the "drive" of a player or two who might make game-winning plays in the future.

to be fair, i let some of my own "emotions" out. i'm a big boy. not as big as i used to be and with any luck, the shrinking will continue, but overall, i'm used to it. any time i put out a post more than a YEA or the like the same people come back with the same acronym. TL/DR.

i've long since given up to understand we live in an instant gratification society and headlines and twitter statements are all their phones can handle so i know when i post a "war and peace" type post it will get snickered at just because *that mindset* does that to ANY post they can't seem to fit into twitter.

comes with the territory and that's life. i'm ok with it.
 

Doc50

Original Fan
Messages
3,142
Reaction score
3,430
The problem with the "losing to win attitude", as the OP allied it, is that once you get an attitude that it is acceptable to lose, you won't get rid of it without getting rid of the people that have it.

I would like to see someone walk up to Witten and tell him to lose a game.

Yeah, that attitude in an athlete is terminal.

The mind set should be to never give up or give in. Win some battles, respect yourself and your teammates and coaches.
This is a military mindset, one that will not accept defeat, and one that at least will always go down fighting.
Remember the Alamo, etc. Anything is possible.
For any true athlete, the challenge is enough to motivate.

The "tanking" mentality for the purpose of draft pick position is a crapshoot at best in this league -- this not the NBA.
So, there's no place for it here, and fans who don't get that have never played or coached sports at a high level -- they think they understand, but they don't and they never will.
 

BulletBob

The Godfather
Messages
2,597
Reaction score
1,279
Iceberg, I understand your point, but I think the category of those who are rooting for a high draft pick next year needs a little bit of refinement. There are (I think) two types of fans looking forward to a lousy record at the end of the season:

  1. those who want us to purposely throw the games away (I think this is the group your post was targeted to), and
  2. those who wouldn't mind the team losing (despite providing an all-out effort) because they have become numb to the season and are desperate for the team to improve next year (like my 16 year old son, who has never experienced a dominating Cowboys team).

But let me address a special sub-category of the first group.

There are those who will be negative no matter what the circumstances - not just negative, but vindictive, poisonous, consistently merciless. This is the group that I believe hit a nerve with so many and prompted your original post. Now I am going to paint with a very broad brush here, and make some wide generalizations to illustrate a point. So, if you have thin skin, and don't like lectures, it would be best to jump to the next post.

I have come across many people with a consistently negative outlook on the events and circumstances that come in and out of one's life. As I grow older (and hopefully wiser), I have found these people (for the most part) to have a common life experience which precipitates the negative behavior. Most of these folks tend to be stuck in a point of life where they have severely underachieved in several aspects of their lives, and have rationalized that life's deck (the system, society, etc.) is stacked against them, and have used this rationalization to give up the will to strive and win. People in this category become bitter and jealous of anyone who succeeds in life, feeling that somehow it is all a game of chance and the folks who achieve victory and prosperity have somehow won life's lottery.

I have found one other character trait among this group that seems fairly prevalent. The need to create drama and to spend time trying to drag others into their sphere of negativity. Their Viagra comes in the form of a generally positive person becoming locked in an argument filled by negativity. The further they can cause a positive person to become entangled in an argument, the more excited the prospect of spreading their negative world view becomes.

Not every person who has a negative outlook on the team falls into this category, mind you. Some are able to present their points in a logical fashion without personal attack or spitefulness. But be on the lookout for those individuals who's life mission is to spread their rancor out of some perverse sense of fulfillment. Realize in the moment that the energy you expend engaging with such folks is indeed misdirected and in no way will lead to anything positive (both for you, and for the vindictive person, who will rarely change, despite all arguments aimed toward conversion).

Footnote: the "you" referred to here is directed to the general (perhaps younger) audience, not to the original poster. And yes, I understand that this hypothesis sounds arrogant, but by the same token, it is written with the hope that someone reading it will take a life lesson from someone who has learned it the hard way and across several years.

So endeth the lesson.

\soapbox
 

iceberg

rock music matters
Messages
34,404
Reaction score
7,932
Iceberg, I understand your point, but I think the category of those who are rooting for a high draft pick next year needs a little bit of refinement. There are (I think) two types of fans looking forward to a lousy record at the end of the season:

  1. those who want us to purposely throw the games away (I think this is the group your post was targeted to), and
  2. those who wouldn't mind the team losing (despite providing an all-out effort) because they have become numb to the season and are desperate for the team to improve next year (like my 16 year old son, who has never experienced a dominating Cowboys team).

But let me address a special sub-category of the first group.

There are those who will be negative no matter what the circumstances - not just negative, but vindictive, poisonous, consistently merciless. This is the group that I believe hit a nerve with so many and prompted your original post. Now I am going to paint with a very broad brush here, and make some wide generalizations to illustrate a point. So, if you have thin skin, and don't like lectures, it would be best to jump to the next post.

I have come across many people with a consistently negative outlook on the events and circumstances that come in and out of one's life. As I grow older (and hopefully wiser), I have found these people (for the most part) to have a common life experience which precipitates the negative behavior. Most of these folks tend to be stuck in a point of life where they have severely underachieved in several aspects of their lives, and have rationalized that life's deck (the system, society, etc.) is stacked against them, and have used this rationalization to give up the will to strive and win. People in this category become bitter and jealous of anyone who succeeds in life, feeling that somehow it is all a game of chance and the folks who achieve victory and prosperity have somehow won life's lottery.

I have found one other character trait among this group that seems fairly prevalent. The need to create drama and to spend time trying to drag others into their sphere of negativity. Their Viagra comes in the form of a generally positive person becoming locked in an argument filled by negativity. The further they can cause a positive person to become entangled in an argument, the more excited the prospect of spreading their negative world view becomes.

Not every person who has a negative outlook on the team falls into this category, mind you. Some are able to present their points in a logical fashion without personal attack or spitefulness. But be on the lookout for those individuals who's life mission is to spread their rancor out of some perverse sense of fulfillment. Realize in the moment that the energy you expend engaging with such folks is indeed misdirected and in no way will lead to anything positive (both for you, and for the vindictive person, who will rarely change, despite all arguments aimed toward conversion).

Footnote: the "you" referred to here is directed to the general (perhaps younger) audience, not to the original poster. And yes, I understand that this hypothesis sounds arrogant, but by the same token, it is written with the hope that someone reading it will take a life lesson from someone who has learned it the hard way and across several years.

So endeth the lesson.

\soapbox

stay on that box man - very valid points and i agree pretty much across the board.

"But be on the lookout for those individuals who's life mission is to spread their rancor out of some perverse sense of fulfillment. "

most of those are on ignore by now so i just never seem them and their constant snarking. (wasn't that a chic song???) and like you, my own lifes experiences have gotten me to this point as well.

sometimes i will vent, like most. i only hope when i do i can say what i need to say w/o the insults (maybe a few) and move on with the intelligent people we both agree are out there and just disagree.

great post.
 

ajk23az

Through Pain Comes Clarity
Messages
7,953
Reaction score
422
Plus, those who want to lose to get a high draft pick obviously don't realize the crap shoot of which the NFL draft is. There have been plenty of top 5 picks who have flamed out. Nobody is a sure thing in the draft, remember Aaron Curry?

Those who don't even want a shot at competing in the playoffs, in hopes of getting a top 5 pick, regardless of how poor the team is, is beyond pathetic.
 
Last edited:

DFWJC

Well-Known Member
Messages
59,982
Reaction score
48,729
CowboysZone LOYAL Fan
You have to question whether a person recommending losing games on purpose has ever played teams sports above middle school.

I almost see those people as the ones that would steal from a blind beggar or sleep with a nearly unconscious drunk girl....if nobody would find out or prove it.

I know, an exaggeration...but seriously.... the idea of it just disgusts me.

It's so clearly spineless and goes completely against everything good (or whatever is remaining that's good) in team sports.
 

LittleD

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,848
Reaction score
6,086
no. i was born in a time when writing was kinda cool and having to express myself in 140 characters or less just wasn't possible.


Lots of "Sound & Fury" signifying nothing much. The GOAL each year is to get to and win the SB, right? We are so far away from
that goal right now and so low below that goal right now that we would have to stand on a nickel to see over a dime. Looking at
this team without Romo, I don't see many winners and lots of losers which we will have to prune over time. Tanking a season that
is not going to be successful in order to get 3 or 4 players you can build a possible winning team with is viable and prudent
in my world if you want to inch toward success. I think the team, management and the media has vastly overrated many of the
members of this team. We have countless holes which have to be filled and we have to get talented players to overcome the
below lackluster coaching the team has. Lots of work to do, me thinks!
 

KB1122

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,328
Reaction score
1,629
Plus, those who want to lose to get a high draft pick obviously don't realize the crap shoot of which the NFL draft is. There have been plenty of top 5 picks who have flamed out. Nobody is a sure thing in the draft, remember Aaron Curry?

Those who don't even want a shot at competing in the playoffs, in hopes of getting a top 5 pick, regardless of how poor the team is, is beyond pathetic.

There' a better record of top 5 picks performing well than there is of teams with losing records doing well in the playoffs.
 

tm1119

Well-Known Member
Messages
9,946
Reaction score
8,684
If you can't understand how losing as many games as possible is beneficial to a team that isn't going to make the playoffs then I question your common sense.

People act like it would be a game plan to lose and players will be told not to try. Of course that's not going to happen. But is putting Kellen Moore into the game with a young running back really going to hurt anything? Throw some younger D players in there as well to see what we have. Why keep trotting the same mediocre vets out there that won't/shouldn't be on the team next year just so they win us 1 or 2 meaningless games? No one (with 1/2 a brain) is saying to purposely throw games and not try.

And get out of here with this losing culture nonsense. It's the last 6 games and these guys are professional athletes. Like what do you really think is going to happen? They come out like clueless idiots next season and refuse to play hard because we went 3-13 without Romo? Reading this stuff cracks me up. But hey, if beating the crappy Commanders for our 4th win makes you happy then go ahead and keep cheering for a 7-9 season
 

iceberg

rock music matters
Messages
34,404
Reaction score
7,932
If you can't understand how losing as many games as possible is beneficial to a team that isn't going to make the playoffs then I question your common sense.

People act like it would be a game plan to lose and players will be told not to try. Of course that's not going to happen. But is putting Kellen Moore into the game with a young running back really going to hurt anything? Throw some younger D players in there as well to see what we have. Why keep trotting the same mediocre vets out there that won't/shouldn't be on the team next year just so they win us 1 or 2 meaningless games? No one (with 1/2 a brain) is saying to purposely throw games and not try.

And get out of here with this losing culture nonsense. It's the last 6 games and these guys are professional athletes. Like what do you really think is going to happen? They come out like clueless idiots next season and refuse to play hard because we went 3-13 without Romo? Reading this stuff cracks me up. But hey, if beating the crappy Commanders for our 4th win makes you happy then go ahead and keep cheering for a 7-9 season

funny. on one hand they're mediocre vets who won't or shouldn't be on the team.
suddenly they're professionals and immune to a "losing culture".

and it's 100% impossible to come out 3-13 so reading this stuff cracks me up...yea.

oh - if losing all our games gets us a crappy player for you to ***** about next year is the gameplan, sure. leave me out.
 
Top