Making a Murderer

[MichaelWinicki]

I don't know a lot about this case, but I notice you keep bringing this up, despite the fact that I haven't seen anyone make this claim except for people defending the prosecution. I don't get where it comes from.

The other thing is if you eliminate Avery from being the murderer, with her car being found on his property, the body remains found in the burn barrel... yada, yada, yada... the "pool" of potential suspects becomes very small indeed.

 

[DogFace]

The other thing is if you eliminate Avery from being the murderer, with her car being found on his property, the body remains found in the burn barrel... yada, yada, yada... the "pool" of potential suspects becomes very small indeed.

They never investigated the ex boy friend and or(can't remember if he was the one) whoever was making her feel uncomfortable by calling over and over. Or the roommate who didn't report her missing to family or inquire about her after 3 days.

They really only investigated Avery. In Wisconsin, by law, the defense can't offer other possible killers making their job that much more difficult. Especially since the prosecutors already filled the jury pool with information saying Avery was the killer with no other suspects.

 

[DogFace]

The other thing is if you eliminate Avery from being the murderer, with her car being found on his property, the body remains found in the burn barrel... yada, yada, yada... the "pool" of potential suspects becomes very small indeed.

It just comes down to some people trusting the police as a group of people that's very unlikely to break the law. While others have a mistrust of them based on either personal experience or some of the incidents that have been in the news, particularly, the last couple of years

 

[MichaelWinicki]

It just comes down to some people trusting the police as a group of people that's very unlikely to break the law. While others have a mistrust of them based on either personal experience or some of the incidents that have been in the news, particularly, the last couple of years

Granted... but there's a big difference between someone who's representing the law shoots an individual whom they thought had a firearm and did not and just arbitrarily picking out an innocent and cold-heartedly executing them as part of a larger conspiracy.

 

[DogFace]

Granted... but there's a big difference between someone who's representing the law shoots an individual whom they thought had a firearm and did not and just arbitrarily picking out an innocent and cold-heartedly executing them as part of a larger conspiracy.

True. Not as big a difference when someone gets shot when they clearly weren't carrying a gun. The police have the same percentage of people willing to bend or In some cases outright break rules as the general population. Like I said some are more trusting and put them on a pedestal more than others. There's many holes in this case. That's why it's getting this attention.

 

[65fastback2plus2]

The other thing is if you eliminate Avery from being the murderer, with her car being found on his property, the body remains found in the burn barrel... yada, yada, yada... the "pool" of potential suspects becomes very small indeed.

I dont necessarily agree with that.

The place wasnt secure and was a place tons of locals came and went to get parts.

Further, the experts admitted that the bones were most likely moved from their original burn site.

Everything outside of the vehicle was easy to place there. The vehicle could have been driven there by whomever had the key (Lenk had it last)

 

[KalEl]

I can't believe that many think the cops are or were more like to assassinate this young woman than Avery doing it.

That's just stunning to me.

The defense made it clear that they didn't believe that the cops killed her. The belief was that it wasn't Avery and the cops used the murder to immediately frame him.

Explain how the cop knew the license plate make and year of the vehicle 2 days before they even found the vehicle. Not to mention why cover it with leaves and branches when you have a car crusher and incinerator at your disposal?

The defense proved that the bones were moved and where found at multiple locations, there was never any blood, bleach, or DNA found in the area he was to have killed her at.

You want facts left out of the series:

• Contradicting Kratz’s most recent statement, a gun expert with the Wisconsin State Crime Lab said he couldn’t conclusively link the bullet found in Avery’s garage to the .22 rifle in Avery’s bedroom. He could only confirm the bullet was fired by a .22 rifle.
• There were little drops of deer blood all over Steven Avery’s garage, proving that the garage hadn’t been washed clean with bleach after the murder of Halbach as the prosecutors claimed.
• A forensic anthropologist testified for the defense that an open fire couldn’t have generated enough heat to burn a body and destroy bones the way Halbach’s remains were found.
• The leg irons and handcuffs found in Avery’s home had the DNA of Steven Avery and at least one other unidentified person. Teresa Halbach’s DNA was not found on them.
• One of the investigators that found DNA under the hood of Halbach’s RAV4 admitted to not changing gloves after handling evidence inside the vehicle.
• Forensic scientist Sherry Culhane was involved in Steven Avery’s 1985 rape case and testified that one of Steven Avery’s hairs was found on victim Penny Beerntsen’s shirt.
• Avery’s lawyers also contend that Culhane delayed processing the DNA test that proved Steven’s innocence in the 1985 rape for an entire year.
• So many problematic jurors were removed by Avery’s defense team that they hit the legal limit of dismissals. They still ended up with a man whose son was a Manitowoc sheriff and a county clerk’s husband.

 

[Nightman]

They never investigated the ex boy friend and or(can't remember if he was the one) whoever was making her feel uncomfortable by calling over and over. Or the roommate who didn't report her missing to family or inquire about her after 3 days.

They really only investigated Avery. In Wisconsin, by law, the defense can't offer other possible killers making their job that much more difficult. Especially since the prosecutors already filled the jury pool with information saying Avery was the killer with no other suspects.

You are literally just naming people you saw briefly in the series as murderers because that is how a lot of movies work. Show the janitor looking creepy for 2 secs early in the movie and then go back later and show his dungeon under the school.

The brother and ex-boyfriend weren't looked because they had alibis and were nowhere near the crime scene. Oh yeah and they were the people that loved her, not people that raped and killed her.

People are so easy to distract and that is what the filmmakers and defense lawyers did.

 

[Nightman]

The defense made it clear that they didn't believe that the cops killed her. The belief was that it wasn't Avery and the cops used the murder to immediately frame him.

Explain how the cop knew the license plate make and year of the vehicle 2 days before they even found the vehicle. Not to mention why cover it with leaves and branches when you have a car crusher and incinerator at your disposal?

The defense proved that the bones were moved and where found at multiple locations, there was never any blood, bleach, or DNA found in the area he was to have killed her at.

You want facts left out of the series:

• Contradicting Kratz’s most recent statement, a gun expert with the Wisconsin State Crime Lab said he couldn’t conclusively link the bullet found in Avery’s garage to the .22 rifle in Avery’s bedroom. He could only confirm the bullet was fired by a .22 rifle.
• There were little drops of deer blood all over Steven Avery’s garage, proving that the garage hadn’t been washed clean with bleach after the murder of Halbach as the prosecutors claimed.
• A forensic anthropologist testified for the defense that an open fire couldn’t have generated enough heat to burn a body and destroy bones the way Halbach’s remains were found.
• The leg irons and handcuffs found in Avery’s home had the DNA of Steven Avery and at least one other unidentified person. Teresa Halbach’s DNA was not found on them.
• One of the investigators that found DNA under the hood of Halbach’s RAV4 admitted to not changing gloves after handling evidence inside the vehicle.
• Forensic scientist Sherry Culhane was involved in Steven Avery’s 1985 rape case and testified that one of Steven Avery’s hairs was found on victim Penny Beerntsen’s shirt.
• Avery’s lawyers also contend that Culhane delayed processing the DNA test that proved Steven’s innocence in the 1985 rape for an entire year.
• So many problematic jurors were removed by Avery’s defense team that they hit the legal limit of dismissals. They still ended up with a man whose son was a Manitowoc sheriff and a county clerk’s husband.

Everything you mentioned was left out because it isn't relevant. You are combining two cases that have nothing to do with each other.

-Teresa Halbach's bones, teeth, phone, camera, car, DNA, jeans and PDA were found in Steve Avery's yard.
-His blood and DNA was found in her car.
-Steve Avery's nephew confessed to the whole thing, multiple times.
-She was last seen with Steve Avery and he specifically asked for her. She didn't make or answer any phone calls after getting to Avery's propert. What 25 year woman doesn't live on her phone.
-He was a violent felon that wasn't even allowed to own a gun. He had 2. That charge alone got him 10 years. They didn't need to frame him, he was already going away.

 

[JohnnyHopkins]

Everything you mentioned was left out because it isn't relevant. You are combining two cases that have nothing to do with each other.

-Teresa Halbach's bones, teeth, phone, camera, car, DNA, jeans and PDA were found in Steve Avery's yard.
-His blood and DNA was found in her car.
-Steve Avery's nephew confessed to the whole thing, multiple times.
-She was last seen with Steve Avery and he specifically asked for her. She didn't make or answer any phone calls after getting to Avery's propert. What 25 year woman doesn't live on her phone.
-He was a violent felon that wasn't even allowed to own a gun. He had 2. That charge alone got him 10 years. They didn't need to frame him, he was already going away.

I can totally see why a jury would look at all of that evidence and say that what the defense offered up was theory at best. They needed that blood test to prove it came from the vial or some other smoking gun to emerge in order to win the jury over. It didn't happen.

 

[DogFace]

Qq

Everything you mentioned was left out because it isn't relevant. You are combining two cases that have nothing to do with each other.

-Teresa Halbach's bones, teeth, phone, camera, car, DNA, jeans and PDA were found in Steve Avery's yard.
-His blood and DNA was found in her car.
-Steve Avery's nephew confessed to the whole thing, multiple times.
-She was last seen with Steve Avery and he specifically asked for her. She didn't make or answer any phone calls after getting to Avery's propert. What 25 year woman doesn't live on her phone.
-He was a violent felon that wasn't even allowed to own a gun. He had 2. That charge alone got him 10 years. They didn't need to frame him, he was already going away.

Everything you mentioned was left out because it isn't relevant. You are combining two cases that have nothing to do with each other.

-Teresa Halbach's bones, teeth, phone, camera, car, DNA, jeans and PDA were found in Steve Avery's yard.
-His blood and DNA was found in her car.
-Steve Avery's nephew confessed to the whole thing, multiple times.
-She was last seen with Steve Avery and he specifically asked for her. She didn't make or answer any phone calls after getting to Avery's propert. What 25 year woman doesn't live on her phone.
-He was a violent felon that wasn't even allowed to own a gun. He had 2. That charge alone got him 10 years. They didn't need to frame him, he was already going away.

One of those points were from the other case. All the others were relevant and about this case.

 

[DogFace]

I can totally see why a jury would look at all of that evidence and say that what the defense offered up was theory at best. They needed that blood test to prove it came from the vial or some other smoking gun to emerge in order to win the jury over. It didn't happen.

Did you look into why it didn't happen?

There are and were a lot of problems with that test.

 

[DogFace]

You are literally just naming people you saw briefly in the series as murderers because that is how a lot of movies work. Show the janitor looking creepy for 2 secs early in the movie and then go back later and show his dungeon under the school.

The brother and ex-boyfriend weren't looked because they had alibis and were nowhere near the crime scene. Oh yeah and they were the people that loved her, not people that raped and killed her.

People are so easy to distract and that is what the filmmakers and defense lawyers did.

First off. I don't just convict people with flimsy or no evidence. I'm naming possible suspects that would have been reasonable to investigate.


People are so easily swayed by authority that it's scary. There are Many case throughout history of morons blindly following leaders in authority positions.

Some people are quick to judge and condemn people they think are unsavory. They often aren't even allowed to be honest with themselves about this fact. Some challenge and question authority. I think that's healthy. In this case the authority has countless issues.

It's doubtful we will see this case the same way and likely many other issues would be the same. We are different.

 

[JohnnyHopkins]

Did you look into why it didn't happen?

There are and were a lot of problems with that test.

Is there more than what was presented in the series? I am all ears if there is more to it!

 

[DogFace]

Is there more than what was presented in the series? I am all ears if there is more to it!

It was in the series. The test they performed normally takes a lot longer than the week it took the fbi in this case. There are many problems with the test regardless. It's only been used in the OJ trial before or since. The lab admitted to contaminating the blood.
They also used the entire sample because of this leaving the defense with not way to test it. Here one persons theory about this test. The defense posed similar findings.
http://brobible.com/entertainment/a...ained-blood-evidence-making-murderer-garbage/

 

[Nightman]

First off. I don't just convict people with flimsy or no evidence. I'm naming possible suspects that would have been reasonable to investigate.


People are so easily swayed by authority that it's scary. There are Many case throughout history of morons blindly following leaders in authority positions.

Some people are quick to judge and condemn people they think are unsavory. They often aren't even allowed to be honest with themselves about this fact. Some challenge and question authority. I think that's healthy. In this case the authority has countless issues.

It's doubtful we will see this case the same way and likely many other issues would be the same. We are different.

You are ignoring the 800lb gorilla in the room.....Her bones were found in his yard, the last place she was seen........999 out of 1000 people get convicted on that alone.....you can't explain it away

Every single person arrested for murder says they are framed or someone else did it...there is not one piece of evidence that points to anyone else and they did investigate......those people have alibis...

This is not some movie where the director adds a bunch of twists and turns....Steve Avery is guilty 100%

 

[Nightman]

It was in the series. The test they performed normally takes a lot longer than the week it took the fbi in this case. There are many problems with the test regardless. It's only been used in the OJ trial before or since. The lab admitted to contaminating the blood.
They also used the entire sample because of this leaving the defense with not way to test it. Here one persons theory about this test. The defense posed similar findings.
http://brobible.com/entertainment/a...ained-blood-evidence-making-murderer-garbage/

The Defense introduced the blood at their own peril.......are we supposed to believe the FBI is in on the conspiracy as well...the blood in the vial clearly had EDTA in it, it was still liquid after 12 years.....the blood sample the FBI tested didn't......period.......it is up to the Defense to prove the blood was planted and they failed........but the jury heard the theory and obviously didn't buy it.....

 

[DogFace]

You are ignoring the 800lb gorilla in the room.....Her bones were found in his yard, the last place she was seen........999 out of 1000 people get convicted on that alone.....you can't explain it away

Every single person arrested for murder says they are framed or someone else did it...there is not one piece of evidence that points to anyone else and they did investigate......those people have alibis...

This is not some movie where the director adds a bunch of twists and turns....Steve Avery is guilty 100%

The Avery's were not allowed on the property for 8 days. There were two policemen with many questionable circumstances involving them and this case. Let alone one of them letting him sit in jail after being told by another police department a likely perpetrator of the crime Avery was in prison for was caught. He sat on this information and looked like he saw a ghost when the defense played the tape of him taking the call. This does have to do with motives I a possible framing of him as it shows an extreme prejudice against Avery.

Thousands of people accused of murder have been realeased after evidence proves them guilty. It's hard to explain to a jury a man is innocent, yes innocent, until proven guilty. They usually trust the police. Especially when no other possible suspects are allowed to be presented. Which isn't allowed under Wisconsin law.

He'll be given a new trial and acquitted.

 

[DogFace]

The Defense introduced the blood at their own peril.......are we supposed to believe the FBI is in on the conspiracy as well...the blood in the vial clearly had EDTA in it, it was still liquid after 12 years.....the blood sample the FBI tested didn't......period.......it is up to the Defense to prove the blood was planted and they failed........but the jury heard the theory and obviously didn't buy it.....

In your opinion was it odd at all that the blood was tampered with?

There are many many questions about the test as I stated. That's why it's never used. Never except in that OJ trial when both sides agreed to have it admitted. The defense said they didn't trust the FBI and I imagine past experience lead to that mistrust.
The odd facial ticks by the agent on the stand would lead an FBI interrogation expert to be very suspicious. A Hollywood writer wouldn't have written something so obvious because a tell that bad isn't often seen.

 

[Nightman]

In your opinion was it odd at all that the blood was tampered with?

There are many many questions about the test as I stated. That's why it's never used. Never except in that OJ trial when both sides agreed to have it admitted. The defense said they didn't trust the FBI and I imagine past experience lead to that mistrust.
The odd facial ticks by the agent on the stand would lead an FBI interrogation expert to be very suspicious. A Hollywood writer wouldn't have written something so obvious because a tell that bad isn't often seen.

Like you said, we are looking at things very differently. You are having fun with playing detective and trying to find anyone else in the world to pin it on besides the guy who did it.

I don't believe all these cops and the FBI conspired to frame a career criminal like Avery. He was doing fine on his own. Every criminal says they are innocent. Avery was right once, that is like hitting the felony powerball, it doesn't happen twice.

If you really think the police moved burnt remains of an innocent woman around I will never get through to you.